Panning / motion on the Philips 9664.

[admin_exported]

I have not been on here for most of this year, but.....

I'm posting this reluctantly, but I don't know what else to do as I cannot find an answer on the web.

If I have perfect natural motion set to on, on my 9664, everything looks strange, speeded up and unwatchable (and everyone who has seen my TV feels like this). Hand motions are terribly strange, auras are common and patterns are dragged and disturbed. It all looks speeded up, though clarity and motion are great. If I have PNM switched off then pans create 'chattering' and flickering edges. I can put up with a bit of inherent judder as CRTs show this in pans often, but why do I have to have this skipping back and forth of edges and lack of focus?

I just cannot live with the completely unnatural look of the perfect natural motion (ironic name?). Are all 9664s like this or do I have a dud? I thought at first it was because I only had normal def Sky and DVD through a SCART and I had some reasurace that this was the case on this very forum, but BRs are just the same through HDMI. Some things are worse than others, but it never goes away. Last night on Dragon's Den (BBC2) with the N.Motion off, during the medium speed pans across the Dragons, the chattering and dancing was terrible. Theo's jacket and tie looked like part of an acid trip.

This was not a cheap telly and we bought it because of the glowing reviews and the fact it looked amazing in the shop. We did do lots of research. Where did we go wrong?

I feel we got the wrong telly (and it is so good in EVERY other way). I like Ambilight, I love the design and the picture (when not panning or no hand held camera) is amazing. I would not buy a Philips again though. I miss our Loewe Aconda something terrible.

 

[TKratz]

Hi Badamz

I am sorry about your frustrations with your TV. I really feel with you.
But I am sorry to say, that what you describes are well documented limitations in the LCD technology, and the reason many of us still stick to plasma TVs (which have other limitations I better add before I will be drowned in complaints...)

Motion handling on LCD sets often is a compromise between an unnatural picture (motion handling turned on) or judder/trailing/etc. (motion handling turned off). Many people actually likes the 'smooth' picture created by the various motion enhancement technologies. The ones of us who doesn't often look out for a plasma screen which has so fast natural response rates that you do not need this processing.

 

[Clare Newsome]

TKratz, do you have to jump on EVERY TV thread and trot out the same plasma-fanboy sweeping generalisations? It's getting a bit wearing now...

Yes, plasmas do a lot of things - motion included - brilliantly, but it's far from fair to describe the OP's symptoms as 'normal' for LCD. Far from it.

A set of the quality of the Philips should not be behaving in this way (as the OP says, it didn't behave this way in the shop; it certainly didn't in our test rooms, either) - either the source or the set itself is at fault.

 

[6th.replicant]

I had a Philips 47PFL7404, bought in Dec '09, which also had many of the problems you describe.

Philips sent an engineer to fix it, but he was unable. [EDITED BY MODS - PLEASE DO NOT REPEAT UNPROVEN ALLEGATIONS]

I sought advice from Trading Standards/Consumer Direct, which deemed the TV "not fit for purpose". During spring '10, I returned the TV to the retailer - Sevenoaks, Bromley, which was very cooperative and sympathetic - and received a full refund.

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

The 9664 was an excellent set and you can get very good results from it. May I suggest you speak to the shop you bought it from and ask them for their best settings. When we had the 9664 in store we spent a lot of time getting it just right - motion included.

If you get the settings they suggest and it is still not right you could get them to view the TV in your house to check the TV is not faulty.

The days of plasma being King by the nature of the technology are long gone. The premium plasmas such as the Panasonic VT20 or the Pioneer screens have serious competition from the top flight LCD sets now.

 

[6th.replicant]

Perusal of this 12-page, 171-post WHF.com thread would seem to indicate that Badamz's 9664 problems are not exactly unique: CLICKETY

[EDITED BY MODS - PLEASE DO NOT DISCUSS MODERATION]

 

[TKratz]

Clare Newsome:

TKratz, do you have to jump on EVERY TV thread and trot out the same plasma-fanboy sweeping generalisations? It's getting a bit wearing now...

No reason to be upset. You are welcome to call me a plasma fanboy. That wouldn't be the first time, and probably not the last either.
Does that makes me unqualified to respond? Well, people should jugde for themselves.
I am not making generalisations, just describing what I have experienced on all LCD TVs to date (to a lessor or greater extend).

Clare Newsome:

Yes, plasmas do a lot of things - motion included - brilliantly, but it's far from fair to describe the OP's symptoms as 'normal' for LCD. Far from it.

Well, as mentioned I disagree. I do not exclude that there could be something wrong with the set, but the descriptions about the annuatural picture. Very describing in my opinion.
But as I also tried to emphasize, many people actually likes this smooth picture. I just think some people are more sensitive than others.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, I did not want to start an argument. We opted for LCD for the simple reason that I am aware of phosphor trailing on every Plasma TV I have seen (and an overall sense of flicker). This is not a comment on plasma, it is one on myself. We would not have bought a plasma for these reasons (we had one briefly). I am familiar with the Panasonic TH-42PZ800 as my Brother has one. It is a very nice set indeed, but I do see a flicker. I cannot remember seeing any LCD (for the months I looked around shops) that had such strange movement or dancing edges (and I am talking about them shimmering, jumping back and forth)

I actually cannot even comprehend that anybody could live with the speeded up, texture dragging and downright peculiar nature of the viewing experience if the 'natural motion' processing on our TV is engaged. I will go to Richer Sounds and make further enquiries. Unfortunately I'm laid up with a heavy cold (I'm not going to go all drama queen and say flu) and so I am stuck watching telly. It is frustrating and I have simply let it drag on too long because I have been in denial. If you watch a program with no medium speed pans, the TV is fantastic. I put some QI's on last night and it was as good as I thought the TV would be when we bought it. Pans though. Pans are pants!

I really did think that when we moved from SCART to HDMI this would improve a lot (as Clare suggested at the time on another thread). On Saturday we watched Gran Torino on BR (via HDMI) and the picket fence type front to Clint's House was like a strobing ladder during pans (NM off). If there is a lot of hand-held camera, or sweeps, then it seems nothing is ever in proper focus and the point of HD is lost. I am much less aware of issues when playing games, but I suppose any sweeps and pans are induced by the player. Some TV we watch seems to be terrible (as I mentioned Dragon's Den - stunning picture, terrible pans), but my other half was watching Fantasy Homes By The Sea and I could not see any dancing edges at all, though the overall picture was soft and dull. Confused and still missing the Aconda.

If our TV is not faulty, then what (before flat TVs) has ever been able to totally polarise the perceptions of different sets of eyes?

Just for the record - I would not go and see a 3D film (or buy a 3D TV) because it would give me a migraine.

 

[aliEnRIK]

TKratz:

Hi Badamz

I am sorry about your frustrations with your TV. I really feel with you.
But I am sorry to say, that what you describes are well documented limitations in the LCD technology, and the reason many of us still stick to plasma TVs (which have other limitations I better add before I will be drowned in complaints...)

My sony certainly doesnt have those 'well documented' problems

If it did I couldnt watch it. For the record, it looks fantastic

 

[Anonymous]

Hi aliEnRIK.

I must confess that we did nearly buy a Sony. Liked them a lot. It was only really the issue of cloudy backlights that put us off (and the fact we did love the metal finish of the Philips - and it's picture and reviews!). We almost bought a 46Z4500.

Let me ask you a question. I don't know too much about the motion processing on your TV (other than the fact that Sony's are usually stated as being superb in this area), but if you have it set to completely off - does it introduce judder alone (because let's not forget that CRT DID show judder in pans) or can you get anything like what I'm talking about - edges (say buildings or most particularly window frames - dark/light contrast) to shudder back and forward in a pan? They dance for me.

I wish I could sit you all down and show you the Dragon's Den pan (I do not have a thing about the Dragons - it was just a perfect example).

What I am trying to establish is whether or not I just hate the motion processing and our TV is only really capable of showing a clear pan with it on (or indeed a convincing in-focus image during any motion).

Cheers.

 

[6th.replicant]

Hell, whatever you do, don't watch the BD of Bourne Ultimatum on your Philips. When viewed on our Philips, the endless hand-held camera, especially panning shots, literally made 'Er Indoors and I feel queasy.

Found that the 'hurl effects' could be eliminated by turning off the so-called 'Natural Motion', but then the overall picture quality was very soft. Which is why Trading Standards deemed the TV "not fit for purpose".

It's odd that the specialist media didn't seem to have problems with its test/sample sets, yet so many consumers did/still have woes - surely we can't all be wrong or totally inept re pic setup?

 

[aliEnRIK]

I have the 46W5500

It cetainly doesnt have juddering back and forth (Sounds faulty to me, surely that cant be right?)

It displays everything as it should, but has (Like all LCDs) poor 'pixel response' times. What this means is that at certain points you will see a 'judder effect', whether 'motion flow' is switched on or not. Ive even seen this on my dads 50" Pioneer (Not to the same degree mind). Just so we're clear though, the 'judder' doesnt swing all over the place, its simply due to the original sources frames

I too have read WHF mention sonys being 'silky smooth' many times. Id have to disagree as I notice judder quite a lot (Nothing major, when I say I notice it, I mean just that ~ its noticeable)

I used to hate motionflow when I 1st bought it. And yet after a 'run in' time its actually fine (On 'normal' setting), making shots smoother without changing the actual look of the display at all (Ie ~ it still looks natural)

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the informative replies guys.

I suppose it is difficult to actually put in words. There is incredibly focussed clarity with NM on, but I cannot live with the totally unnatural feel and sense that it is running at the wrong speed (as well as ghosting and dragging). Both me and other half have to have NM off all the time.

This means that rapid movement is unfocussed and if say a face is moving - the actor is walking towards the camera and across the frame somewhat, it is never in total focus. Rapid fighting or many moving things at once (say Star Trek 11 BR) shows a constant loss of focus that can only be restored (to stunning clarity) with NM on, but I cannot live with the effects. There is no middle ground.

Pans though. Let me try to be totally clear, at the risk of repeating myself because you are clearly trying to get to the core of my issue. I am not worried about some judder and I would expect rapid movement to unfocus (after all, my eyes cannot focus if I sweep my head around in real life!). This is more a flicker and a sense that during the pan the image is dancing between the proceeding and current frame so it is not so much a judder or lack of smoothness, more a sense that the image is flicking back and forth during the movement. It is not nice. It does not look right. Surely nobody could live with a Philips if they are all like this?

We returned a Panasonic plasma last year because it never seemed in focus during motion. Do we own strange eyes?

6th.replicant. What had you gone through before you were able to involve Trading Standards? How willing were they to help?

 

[aliEnRIK]

Badamz:

We returned a Panasonic plasma last year because it never seemed in focus during motion. Do we own strange eyes?

Sounds to me like you have better eyes than most (I know this doesnt help, but I feel from what you say that your more susceptible at seeing faults than most)

id suggest visiting your local store though and see if you can recreate the problem (To determine if the sets faulty or not)

 

[TKratz]

Badamz:

Pans though. Let me try to be totally clear, at the risk of repeating myself because you are clearly trying to get to the core of my issue. I am not worried about some judder and I would expect rapid movement to unfocus (after all, my eyes cannot focus if I sweep my head around in real life!). This is more a flicker and a sense that during the pan the image is dancing between the proceeding and current frame so it is not so much a judder or lack of smoothness, more a sense that the image is flicking back and forth during the movement. It is not nice. It does not look right. Surely nobody could live with a Philips if they are all like this?

This definately doesn't sound right!
Something must be wrong with the picture processing, and I think you should ask Philips or the retailer to look into it.

My first post may have come out a bit one sided, oversimplyfied and exaggerated, but your initial description made me feel like a dejavu. One of my friends reported the exact same symptoms after purchasing this TV. I went to his place and had to agree. It was not nice. He decided to contact Philips who examined the TV and reported 'everything is working fine'.
Next time he visited me he noted: 'Your TV do not suffer from any of these motion issues'? The next week he sold his Philips and got a Panasonic...

But with your latest clarification I would say your situation is worse than what we experienced, and something must be wrong.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Badamz

Sorry to hear about your woo's on the 9664.

I myself have had a few but they were all to do with the dirty lens look when panning and not what you describe. 6th replicant pointed in the direction of the '9664 problem' thread but that's is from memory to do with the dirty lens. banding issue.

I have had my current 9664 for 7 months now which incedentaly i bought from the home cinema centre edinburgh (excellent shop) and the picture quality is fantastic. With the motion handling turned on u do sometimes get a weird effect in movies which makes them appear like a home made soap opera...hard to explain unless you've seen it

Bottom line i have seen every dragons den this series on my 9664 and i have seen nothing like you describe and trust me i would notice it if it happened so i can only suggest you have a fault.

If you contact philips they will arange for pick up and repair providing it's within the first year.

IMO you made a wise choice over the sony's of that time (2009 models) the picture is great the sound fantastic and the set it by far the best looking model available (again pre 2010). I'm just sorry it's not worked out for you. As one guy wrote on the threads don't accept it if your unhappy, call Philips now and arrange for it to be checked out.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes. As soon as I start to get over this cold, I will get on to Philips. We also have a 5 year warranty with Richer Sounds, so surely I can get somewhere.

Thanks all. I should have been back on here months ago.

 

[Anonymous]

Incidentaly my first couple of 9664's were from richer sounds and both went back i got a refund and went home cinema centre and it was a much better screen, i think perhaps RS maybe just had a bad batch but their customer service was excellent so you shouldn't have any trouble dealing with them.

 

[peddie44]

I got my girlfriend's dad a 9664 recently and have seen the same problem - panning across pictures quickly messes the pic up, it became very apparent watching the new star trek film with loads of quick moving pictures.

I found the optimum setup posted somewhere or other on this forum, which was used in the testing by WHF, and then made sure the puremotion and other similar settings (cant remember what they are off the top of my head) were off - this seemed to improve the picture greatly....

 

[Anonymous]

Peddie

I too set up my 9664 with the settings posted on here originally by andy clough I think and they work very well although i may have tweaked it slightly

I also have the new star trek movie on blu-ray and the picture is impecable, no smearing, smudging, whatever you want to call it.

 

[Anonymous]

Just read through the thread. I feel for you. Even though I'm now happy with my set (only had it 24hrs so anything can happen) I know just how you must feel. My first Panasonic was dreadful. I prevoiusly had a Samsung 46C750 which packed in after six weeks. It was a very good set. It's just that I didn't want to get another tv which didn't have an on/off switch. I know it sounds silly but maybe the constant plugging/unplugging help it's demise.

 

[kinda]

I agree that maybe you should explore the settings and see if you can get something you're happy with. If you've got the 5 year guarantee then you've got plenty of time to report any genuine faults I suppose.

I moved from a progressive scan CRT to a projector recently, and I found I noticed a lot of judder initially in pans, and occasionally as you describe almost back and forth movement of anything long and vertical. I found by comparing to the CRT that the judder was there in the footage, but it seemed amplified, even taking into account the increase in size of the screen.

However, I found that refining the settings, particularly in certain picture modes, has made this now no more problematic than on my CRT. The dynamic mode initially was terrible for this, and the theatre modes OK, but with experimantation and tweaking everything's fine and I'm really happy with the picture, and my full daylight settings use the dynamic mode.

I don't have any motion tweaks on my projector, and deliberately didn't pay another £700 or so to get them as I don't really like them when I see them, so you should be able to get a suitable picture with them off hopefully, if it isn't a genuine fault.

 

[6th.replicant]

Badamz:

6th.replicant. What had you gone through before you were able to involve Trading Standards? How willing were they to help?

I telephoned Trading Standards/Consumer Direct (CD) for advice before contacting Philips or the dealer - it saves the latter two's flannel.

I explained to CD, using non-TV-geek-speak, that my TV had a beautiful, sharp picture until an object/person moved, then it/they had a "'shimmering/watery outline' or looked like a 'wobbly rubber-band man'" and after viewing for approx 90 minutes I started to feel nauseous - the "nauseous" reference was a) true and b) seemed to really get CD's attention.

I then told the CD advisor that "when I switched off a picture enhancement setting called 'HD Natural Motion', then the 'shimmering/watery outline' etc ceased, but the picture quality would be 'soft and fuzzy'".

I also explained that during dark or night-set scenes, the screen had "large grey splodges in its corners, which were progressively worsening week-by-week" - ie the TV had severe 'clouding'.

The CD advisor said that I should contact the dealer, explain the problem(s) and offer it the chance to repair the TV. If the repair didn't yield a satisfactory result, then I was entitled to a replacement set or if it transpired that the particular model TV had design fault, then I would be entitled to a full refund, because the TV was "not fit for purpose".

I contacted the dealer, which asked me to contact Philips to request that it send an engineer to my home. Engineer arrived 48 hours later, took one look at the TV, noted its model-type, rolled his eyes and, in essence, said: "Not another one..." He tried a software update, but it only made matters worse. He explained that the TV needed to have any source-type device - ie PVR or BDP - tuned/setup to suit the TV. When I explained that my Humax PVR and Pioneer BDP had no such settings, he merely smiled weakly, raised his eyebrows and said that the Philips TV really needed to be hooked-up to a Philips-made PVR and BDP, which have the appropriate settings, to function correctly.

Confused? Probably not half as much as I was.

In short, the dealer's one-strike at repair was 'out'.

The CD advisor suggested that I should write to the dealer, using one of CD's template letters, stating that I wanted a refund (as the set clearly had a design fault) and that I required a response/refund within seven days. In fact, I simply telephoned the dealer, Sevenoaks (Bromley), quoted the Trading Standard's/Consumer Direct's "not fit for purpose" line and other types of legal-speak, then Sevenoaks assured me that a refund or exchange would not be problem, but asked me if they could first speak to their local Philips rep to clear some internal protocols.

A few days later I returned the TV to the store and received a full refund.

Hope the above helps.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Badamz:

Yes. As soon as I start to get over this cold, I will get on to Philips. We also have a 5 year warranty with Richer Sounds, so surely I can get somewhere.

Thanks all. I should have been back on here months ago.

I think i could be coming down with something, running abit of a temperature - tired.

You know this winter is swine flu suppose to be coming back but alot worse this time?

Thanks

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Also what happened to giving everyone jab for swine flu? i never got one did anyone else get one?

Thanks