Macspur
Well-known member
Hope you got to the demo today Cno... we're all waiting with bated breath
Mac
www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com
Mac
www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com
Macspur said:
Hi Mac - I gave a brief(ish) description (as I'm a bit knackered), just above your post.
BTW. I've OK'd it with Michael that our trip to his shop can happen, if it works in with your plans.
FFS Peeps...stick to your day jobs!
Well, I'm back, after a strange and somewhat unexpected day.
I should know after over 40 years, that the only thing you should expect with Hifi, is expect the unexpected. We arrived at 10.30 and hauled the amp into the dem room and connected a Majik DS on one end and some Ref 3s on the other. We then went and got coffee and buns while Michael worked on the dem list.
Eventually, beverage in hand, we sat in the comfy leather seats and began. What came out of the speakers was truly horrible. Hard, glassy, very detailed and painful on the ears. It didn't matter what we played, as it all sounded like someone scraping their nails down a blackboard.
After an hour, we connected the Harbeth SLH5s. These mitigated the hard edge, but it could still be heard. They sounded more natural, but a little dull and boxy...but at least we could sit in the room with them.
Something was wrong - and i suspected that it was down to the amp, which I had put in the car the previous night, as I had help to do so....and last night there was a hard frost.
Anyway, bit by bit, the sound improved. At this stage, it had now been on a couple of hours. We put the Refs back on again...and thank goodness, they started to sound really good - Highly detailed/revealing, with deep punchy bass, while remaining sweet. They produced the exciting and engaging sound that I was expecting.
We now went for a bite of lunch, while Michael connected the Akurate DS.
Once refuelled, we settled in to listening once more. With the ADS attached, the sound took another leap forward. More detailed, better separation and bigger soundstage. The well recorded stuff was absolutely brilliant and the poorer stuff was still OK.
To give the Harbeths a fair shot, we connected them back up. This time they faired much better. The mids were gorgeous, with voices being very natural.....but we both felt the scale and excitement of the Refs was missing. I also thought I could hear some mid bass bloom, which wasn't unpleasant (and was probably the result of the cabinet design)..but I preferred the dryer, more accurate presentation of the Refs. It was probably having the direct comparison that highlighted it even more.
The Monitor 40.2s are almost new....and even with a bit of discount were out of my price range...so I didn't make Michael go to the bother of unboxing them....and we were running out of time.
So where am I?
There is something about the way in which my system, in my room, just works the way I like it. I heard nothing today, that would make me want to change for a substantial amount of money...but....I have heard a direct comparison between the 2 Kef generations, on the same system, in the same room and preferred the New version.
The only way I can now possibly make a decision is have a home dem, which I may yet do, if Michael is up for it - so this may not be the end of the story.
Well, I'm back, after a strange and somewhat unexpected day.
I should know after over 40 years, that the only thing you should expect with Hifi, is expect the unexpected. We arrived at 10.30 and hauled the amp into the dem room and connected a Majik DS on one end and some Ref 3s on the other. We then went and got coffee and buns while Michael worked on the dem list.
Eventually, beverage in hand, we sat in the comfy leather seats and began. What came out of the speakers was truly horrible. Hard, glassy, very detailed and painful on the ears. It didn't matter what we played, as it all sounded like someone scraping their nails down a blackboard.
After an hour, we connected the Harbeth SLH5s. These mitigated the hard edge, but it could still be heard. They sounded more natural, but a little dull and boxy...but at least we could sit in the room with them.
Something was wrong - and i suspected that it was down to the amp, which I had put in the car the previous night, as I had help to do so....and last night there was a hard frost.
Anyway, bit by bit, the sound improved. At this stage, it had now been on a couple of hours. We put the Refs back on again...and thank goodness, they started to sound really good - Highly detailed/revealing, with deep punchy bass, while remaining sweet. They produced the exciting and engaging sound that I was expecting.
We now went for a bite of lunch, while Michael connected the Akurate DS.
Once refuelled, we settled in to listening once more. With the ADS attached, the sound took another leap forward. More detailed, better separation and bigger soundstage. The well recorded stuff was absolutely brilliant and the poorer stuff was still OK.
To give the Harbeths a fair shot, we connected them back up. This time they faired much better. The mids were gorgeous, with voices being very natural.....but we both felt the scale and excitement of the Refs was missing. I also thought I could hear some mid bass bloom, which wasn't unpleasant (and was probably the result of the cabinet design)..but I preferred the dryer, more accurate presentation of the Refs. It was probably having the direct comparison that highlighted it even more.
The Monitor 40.2s are almost new....and even with a bit of discount were out of my price range...so I didn't make Michael go to the bother of unboxing them....and we were running out of time.
So where am I?
There is something about the way in which my system, in my room, just works the way I like it. I heard nothing today, that would make me want to change for a substantial amount of money...but....I have heard a direct comparison between the 2 Kef generations, on the same system, in the same room and preferred the New version.
The only way I can now possibly make a decision is have a home dem, which I may yet do, if Michael is up for it - so this may not be the end of the story.
home demo them for a fortnight and see if you can go back after it, always the best test 
he says after taking back the Luxman I haven't smiled since and with Oppo pulling out of the market what a week...
he says after taking back the Luxman I haven't smiled since and with Oppo pulling out of the market what a week...
Macspur
Well-known member
CnoEvil said:
Yes, I see... shame about the 40.2's, was looking forward to your impressions.
Good news on the visit to the shop, thanks... perhaps if there's time I can here the Refs.
If we can, make it an early visit, before family gatherings kick in.
Mac
www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com
"There is something about the way in which my system, in my room, just works the way I like it. I heard nothing today, that would make me want to change for a substantial amount of money"
That doesn't surprise me. You already have a well sorted system.
BTW, what track were you listening to at the start of the demo, and what track later on, when the KEF's sounded better?
That doesn't surprise me. You already have a well sorted system.
BTW, what track were you listening to at the start of the demo, and what track later on, when the KEF's sounded better?
nopiano
Well-known member
Yes, I do too. One ‘favourite” CD is a CBS recoding of early-ish Simon and Garfunkel, which can sound very scrawny. I also listen to tracks on a favoured album that I don’t usually enjoy.insider9 said:
nopiano
Well-known member
Hi Cno,
Interesting that your amp (or your ears!) needed such a while to warm through. I think you maybe need a home dem or another day at the shop.
Or just stick with what you have?!
Interesting that your amp (or your ears!) needed such a while to warm through. I think you maybe need a home dem or another day at the shop.
Or just stick with what you have?!
lindsayt said:
All tracks sounded terrible in the first hour or so.....and all tracks improved as the amp fully warmed up (which took much longer than normal).
nopiano said:
It wasn't just my ears - we all heard the same thing. It was so rough, we could hardly sit in the room with it...even the Harbeths hinted at the edginess, it was so bad.
I don't think the amp liked being left out in the car over night, in a sharp frost.
My own room is well damped and much larger than the dem room...the 11ft ceiling also helps.
davidf
Well-known member
Which was why I’ve always tried to get people to book a demo and not just set something up on the spur of the moment. You get the odd few that will look at you like you’re crazy, and think you just can’t be arsed, when in reality you just want to make the best sound you possibly can for them seeing as they’ve maybe made on off the cuff trip to visit. The very minimum (unless something is already warmed up and ready to go) would be to suggest they have a look around town for an hour, allowing the chance to set it up, let it warm up, tweak it, and get it sounding good. I know yours was an extreme case Cno, but many amplifiers just sounded flat and sometimes a bit of a mess without warming up first - Naim and Rotel were the worst two, but most amps benefitted from a good half hour/hour warm up.CnoEvil said:
Kubs
Well-known member
Kubs said:
The S/Cs were some decent quality instal cable, but nothing fancy. The I/C was a Linn Silver RCA.
This was not a cabling issue. If I'd known how bad my amp would sound, I'd have left it switched on for an hour and a half before attempting to listen.
nopiano
Well-known member
Yes, I was pulling your leg about your ears, though I reckon I need a while to recover from driving before listening - as even with a quiet car, the ear/brain tunes out road noise and wind whistle. I’m sure the amp probably needed some time to warm through and settle. Maybe go back in the summer!CnoEvil said:
Two other thoughts:-
1. I’m sure your room sounds significantly better than the shops. Even when I sold Hifi the myth was that the shop dem room was specially constructed, when it was really just a space below the stock room that could be enclosed!
2. Have you noticed how in any demonstration the cheaper products or perhaps one the dealer may be less keen to sell invariably comes first. I expect a psychologist could explain why we see ascending quality in this way. I found myself doing this when I auditioned speakers last year. And in most things the best things come last!
davidf said:
I'd never heard my amp sound like that....and it usually takes about half an hour to heat up. Even from cold, it usually sounds OK.
If it shows one thing, it's that the Refs are ruthless in what they reveal.
nopiano said:
In my dem, the more expensive speakers came first (at my request) and sounded carp....luckily that changed as the amp came on song.
I could have lived with the Harbeths and think their strengths would have grown on me further, over time....but they are a much cheaper speaker. If my budget was around their pricepoint, I think they could well be my choice.
I would have loved to have heard the 40.2s, but Michael was on his own and they were boxed up....and they were simply more than I was prepared to spend....and would need stands as well. Though, he would have brought them down, if I had much preferred the SLH5 to the Ref 3s...and they were in budget.
Andrewjvt said:
I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't.
My own Refs aren't too shabby in that department...but the New Refs take it up a level.
Macspur
Well-known member
when it comes to spending big money on something I think its natural to seek assurance from an impressive demo. A few hours on non impressive audio at the start, cant even be in the room bad, is going to mare that whoever you are and put a dampener on the whole thing. Its a shame really.
I have heard the refs sound terrible to average to pretty incredible depending on a lot of variables - thats not exclusive to them - had I only heard the terrible then I dont think i would have home demo'd them.
In a short demo I am only ever listening for potential - do I think these sound like they have the potential to sound great.
When I home demo'd compared to the MA Plat Mk1 - they gave the bits that was missing that I was after in terms of sound scale and soundstage thats why I bought them - but I was still only listening for their potential as it takes time to get the most of out any product. Cant expect a dealer to have the time to do that when they sell multiple products for differing tastes, different if they only sell 1 or 2 full systems.
I have heard the refs sound terrible to average to pretty incredible depending on a lot of variables - thats not exclusive to them - had I only heard the terrible then I dont think i would have home demo'd them.
In a short demo I am only ever listening for potential - do I think these sound like they have the potential to sound great.
When I home demo'd compared to the MA Plat Mk1 - they gave the bits that was missing that I was after in terms of sound scale and soundstage thats why I bought them - but I was still only listening for their potential as it takes time to get the most of out any product. Cant expect a dealer to have the time to do that when they sell multiple products for differing tastes, different if they only sell 1 or 2 full systems.
ellisdj said:
That is pretty much exactly my view.
The dealer is 100 miles away and the Refs are big heavy, expensive and hard to box up and move...especially for someone who is frightened to lift more than a paperclip.
I know what the Ref 3s are capable of, so haven't given up. I spoke to Michael this morning, thanked him for giving up his entire day to accomodate me yesterday.....and got his agreement, that if I payed his man for a day, he would bring the Refs over, set them up and allow me to compare with my 205/2s - and then box up and bring the loser back to the shop.
This way, all the variables will be the same for both speakers....and I can have the amp warmed up and ready to go (playlist locked and loaded).
Listening to some of my playlist just now, and even though I am getting the sound I'm more used to, I can already tell that the resolution is not quite as good, the bass isn't as deep or punchy and the feeling of "being there in the front row" not just as real.
These initial assessments will of course be confirmed (or not), if I go ahead with the trial.
would it be worth them bringing an alternative to try - maybe not Harbeth something else.
I told myself before I buy any more speakers I want to listen to all the pairs I could - I didnt get very far into that ambition before I signed but doesnt make it bad advice.
I have listened to a lot since PMC is growing on me, the rest I couldnt afford but I think I made the right choice - Eclipse are pretty special speakers I dont know if they stock them
Focal Kanta are similar money - I know your looking at a deal just suggesting
I mean as well as not instead of BTW
I told myself before I buy any more speakers I want to listen to all the pairs I could - I didnt get very far into that ambition before I signed but doesnt make it bad advice.
I have listened to a lot since PMC is growing on me, the rest I couldnt afford but I think I made the right choice - Eclipse are pretty special speakers I dont know if they stock them
Focal Kanta are similar money - I know your looking at a deal just suggesting
I mean as well as not instead of BTW
ellisdj said:
I have heard everything he has in his shop, so there is nothing that springs to mind - except the big Harbeths, which are just a step to far for me....and I don't think my amp would be man enough for them anyway. Their specs are all wrong for the 35i, having low sensitivity and high Impedance...I already noticed how much further the volume knob had to go on the SHLS5+.
The 90dB Sensitivity on my current Refs works very well...and the 87.5dB rating on the Ref 3s also needed an extra push of the Volume knob.
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