Out with the New, In with the Old?

[Macspur]

Cno, is it not possible to have a home demo?, or will that come later

Hope my remarks on the 40.2 weren't too critical... it really wasn't a good demo, roomwise and presentationwise. I only had the SHL5+ at the time and was yet to experience the 40th anniversary model and in my circumstances, financially and in terms of room size, they are a better fit for me than the larger speaker.

I do hope you get to hear the anniversaries.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[Infiniteloop]

Cno, if your ears are a twitchin’ for something new, if you get the chance, have a listen to Quad ESL 2912’s. For me, they were a standout at the Bristol show.

These too are on my list after we’ve moved house.

 

[Samd]

Cno, if your ears are a twitchin’ for something new, if you get the chance, have a listen to Quad ESL 2912’s. For me, they were a standout at the Bristol show.

These too are on my list after we’ve moved house.

two grand off.

 

[insider9]

Back to question David asked. I'd listen to the ones you expect to be buying (Harberths) first. Then compare Kefs to them.

If you like what Harberths do them all will be relative to this. So even if Ref 3 will do this and that better it will all be relative and compared to Harberths.

 

[davidf]

Have you thought about which one you’ll start with? Could have a bearing on your thoughts, particularly if you’re doing quick A/B type listening.

Interesting - I hadn't given it any particular thought. Can you lay out your thinking?

To use an extreme example, let's say you have a pair of the old, lean sounding PMC Twenty.23s, and you're comparing them to a pair of, well, let's say KEF R500s. Because each speaker is quite different tonally, it takes some time to get accustomed to what they're doing. I've been in too many demos where someone changes to a different speaker and within seconds says, "no, I don't like those". You can't 'instantly' tune in to a different speaker, it takes time. If you start off with the PMCs and get nicely settled into them, that's your reference point. You then move straight to the KEFs, and instantly they're going to sound quite bassy and subdued. It may take half an hour to an hour to then settle into the KEFs and hear that that isn't really the case. And vice versa. Start with the KEFs then move to the PMCs and they're going to sound thin and maybe bright to many people, but extended listening and you find that apart from the fact that they are a little lean sounding, it's nowhere near as bad as it first seems, and after an hour or so, it may well be exactly what you're looking for.

Personally, I think a good approach would be to go and have a few hours with one speaker, then go home and come back the next day and do the same with the other. That's the only way to completely remove one affecting your interpretation of the other. Not ideal though I grant you, but this way you can gain a completely isolated first impression of each speaker. I suppose that's an extension of the way I like to compare things - I like to have an extended listen to something, gain an overall impression, hear what it does right, maybe what it does that I'm not to keen on, then do the same with the next - I'm not so keen on quick A/B comparisons - in my opinion, quick A/B demos tend to based more around tonal balance. That's great if that's the aspect that's important to you, but there's a lot more going on (or not) that can be just as important, if not, more so.

 

[CnoEvil]

Cno, is it not possible to have a home demo?, or will that come later

Hope my remarks on the 40.2 weren't too critical... it really wasn't a good demo, roomwise and presentationwise. I only had the SHL5+ at the time and was yet to experience the 40th anniversary model and in my circumstances, financially and in terms of room size, they are a better fit for me than the larger speaker.

I do hope you get to hear the anniversaries.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

Mac, due to the distance that the dealer is away, the weight of the likely candidates and the fragility of my back, I won't be doing a home dem in the tradional sense. What I will do, as I know Michael, is have the ability to return them, if the don't work out. As they are demo/used speakers, this shouldn't be a problem.

I certainly wasn't put off by your comments....as I've heard good speakers sound carp as well. I have read that the 40.2s have taken some DNA from the SLH5 Plus and are voiced similarly ie. a bit more modern/lively. The problem is the 40.2s are really too big for where I want them to go and might mean removing the LS50s (Fr L and R) and driving them with the AVR600.

He doesn't stock the Anniversaries, so if I went this route, it would be blind.

May I ask:

- What speaker stands do you use (what height)?

- Are your stands filled - if so, with what?

- What speaker cables are you using?

- Do you think Harbeths are fussy with stands...there seems to be no consensus on this.

I have some metal, open frame Heybrook Stands from the early 80s, which should work with the SHL5s, but would be too tall for the 40.2s

 

[CnoEvil]

Cno, if your ears are a twitchin’ for something new, if you get the chance, have a listen to Quad ESL 2912’s. For me, they were a standout at the Bristol show.

These too are on my list after we’ve moved house.

I'm afraid I have no way of hearing them....or the space that they would need. They sound like my sort of speaker and my amp would handle the load.

 

[CnoEvil]

Back to question David asked. I'd listen to the ones you expect to be buying (Harberths) first. Then compare Kefs to them.

If you like what Harberths do them all will be relative to this. So even if Ref 3 will do this and that better it will all be relative and compared to Harberths.

I simply don't know which I will prefer. I have heard the New Refs and Blades quite a lot and really like what they do. I have also directly compared the Old and New Refs and preferred the New ones by a surprising margin. That was with an Arcam A49. This dem is about seeing how my amp works with them (they are less Sensitive than what I have...87.5dB vs 90dB)

So given their familiarity, I think I'm starting with them.....and it's up to the Harbeths to then beat them.

If I was going to change, it was always going to be for the New Refs...so this Harbeth detour is an unexpected mindfcuk.

 

[CnoEvil]

To use an extreme example, let's say you have a pair of the old, lean sounding PMC Twenty.23s, and you're comparing them to a pair of, well, let's say KEF R500s. Because each speaker is quite different tonally, it takes some time to get accustomed to what they're doing. I've been in too many demos where someone changes to a different speaker and within seconds says, "no, I don't like those". You can't 'instantly' tune in to a different speaker, it takes time. If you start off with the PMCs and get nicely settled into them, that's your reference point. You then move straight to the KEFs, and instantly they're going to sound quite bassy and subdued. It may take half an hour to an hour to then settle into the KEFs and hear that that isn't really the case. And vice versa. Start with the KEFs then move to the PMCs and they're going to sound thin and maybe bright to many people, but extended listening and you find that apart from the fact that they are a little lean sounding, it's nowhere near as bad as it first seems, and after an hour or so, it may well be exactly what you're looking for.

Personally, I think a good approach would be to go and have a few hours with one speaker, then go home and come back the next day and do the same with the other. That's the only way to completely remove one affecting your interpretation of the other. Not ideal though I grant you, but this way you can gain a completely isolated first impression of each speaker. I suppose that's an extension of the way I like to compare things - I like to have an extended listen to something, gain an overall impression, hear what it does right, maybe what it does that I'm not to keen on, then do the same with the next - I'm not so keen on quick A/B comparisons - in my opinion, quick A/B demos tend to based more around tonal balance. That's great if that's the aspect that's important to you, but there's a lot more going on (or not) that can be just as important, if not, more so.

I think your approach is sensible...but is a little impractical for me.

The dealer is 100 miles away, so hopping back and forth is a pain....but would do so if necessary. The biggest reason is that I wanted Mrs. C to hear the options and finding a day that suits is difficult. Finding 2 days would be next to impossible.

I will be giving up the whole day to this...and will have 2 other people giving feedback. If I am undecided at the end of the day, I will go back again myself.

I have a good understanding about what I like....I won't be comparing the speakers against each other per se, but against how live acoustic instruments sound and against how I'm moved by Opera/Orchestral stuff.....which (imo) is much harder to get right and where many modern systems are unconvincing.

The 2 Harbeth models are voiced in a way that is more modern...and, especially the 40.2, give monitor levels of detail.

 

[CnoEvil]

The Kefs are in the same finish as yours....and the same ones I wrote about a while ago (and were photographed as part of the Kef/Arcam/Audioquest night).

The M40s are Rosewood (I think).

I'm not sure what the finish is on the SLH5s...but any of the finishes can be ordered.

I cannot afford the more expensive speakers new, so am stuck with the colour they are in.

 

[Macspur]

Cno, is it not possible to have a home demo?, or will that come later

Hope my remarks on the 40.2 weren't too critical... it really wasn't a good demo, roomwise and presentationwise. I only had the SHL5+ at the time and was yet to experience the 40th anniversary model and in my circumstances, financially and in terms of room size, they are a better fit for me than the larger speaker.

I do hope you get to hear the anniversaries.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

Mac, due to the distance that the dealer is away, the weight of the likely candidates and the fragility of my back, I won't be doing a home dem in the tradional sense. What I will do, as I know Michael, is have the ability to return them, if the don't work out. As they are demo/used speakers, this shouldn't be a problem.

I certainly wasn't put off by your comments....as I've heard good speakers sound carp as well. I have read that the 40.2s have taken some DNA from the SLH5 Plus and are voiced similarly ie. a bit more modern/lively. The problem is the 40.2s are really too big for where I want them to go and might mean removing the LS50s (Fr L and R) and driving them with the AVR600.

He doesn't stock the Anniversaries, so if I went this route, it would be blind.

May I ask:

- What speaker stands do you use (what height)?

- Are your stands filled - if so, with what?

- What speaker cables are you using?

- Do you think Harbeths are fussy with stands...there seems to be no consensus on this.

I have some metal, open frame Heybrook Stands from the early 80s, which should work with the SHL5s, but would be too tall for the 40.2s

I would have every confidence in the 40.2, which incidentally are an anniversary model too, sounding wonderful in the right sized room.

I've got the SHL5's on stands from HiFi Racks, the ones I used for the previous plus model, made from solid oak witha solid wood top plate and four solid legs that screw into another solid wood plate... height afraid I can't remember, but tweeter is at ear height. They do also make stands especially designed for the SHL5+ anniversaries and I believe this comes with an isolation plate, they are in the matching Walnut.

As for Harbeth being fussy about stands, in my experience, I don't think so. I've heard them on Something Solid stands and some relatively cheap metal stands which I did fill with rice and now these solid wood ones and all seem to work fine.

I used to have those Heybrook stands, I'm sure they would work well.

I use Auditorium 23 speaker cables, but don't ask me how they sound lol!

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[davidf]

I think your approach is sensible...but is a little impractical for me.

Hence I mentioned it's not an ideal one. It's great if your dealer is just down the road, but not that far away! Maybe an hour break might help? BUt then it depends how you're accustomed to comparing things - as I say, I don't really like quick A/B demos, but someone else might prefer that to comparing with long time periods.

 

[plastic penguin]

Harbeths certainly come with a fabulous reputation. I agree with David's comments about the tonal differences could throw you (at least your ears) off kilter with a relative short demo.

As I've not heard either speaker I'll be intrigued by your views. Harbeth's have whistled over my head should I want to upgrade the TBs.

Good luck.

 

[lindsayt]

Cno, do you have any thoughts on the price of these speakers?

 

[CnoEvil]

Hence I mentioned it's not an ideal one. It's great if your dealer is just down the road, but not that far away! Maybe an hour break might help? BUt then it depends how you're accustomed to comparing things - as I say, I don't really like quick A/B demos, but someone else might prefer that to comparing with long time periods.

There will be nothing quick about this dem....and it's not like I'm hearing the Refs for the first time.

I'm inclined to know very quickly the sound that I don't like....so it will be degrees of excellence.

It's not like I will be comparing Celestion SL6 with Focal. The approach of both companies may be quite different....but I expect that both Monitor type speakers, will delve deeply into the layers/ambient details of the recording.

Have you ever had a detailed dem of the 40.2s?

 

[CnoEvil]

Cno, do you have any thoughts on the price of these speakers?

Of course....and if anything happens, it will have to be a favorable deal, and give me a very special listening experience. The 40.2s seem to be putting a foot in your corner, with a 12" Bass Woofer. Even the Mid is 8".

I am not interested in taking a punt on fairly old speakers...as I'd rather keep what I have.

 

[davidf]

Have you ever had a detailed dem of the 40.2s?

I've only briefly heard Harbeth at Bristol a couple of times, but I couldn't tell you which models.

 

[CnoEvil]

Harbeths certainly come with a fabulous reputation. I agree with David's comments about the tonal differences could throw you (at least your ears) off kilter with a relative short demo.

As I've not heard either speaker I'll be intrigued by your views. Harbeth's have whistled over my head should I want to upgrade the TBs.

Good luck.

Thx PP.

I will know more after Thursday...and crossed something else of my Bucket List.

 

[Macspur]

You've probably read it already, but Here's a review on the 40.2

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/harbeth-monitor-402-loudspeaker/

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[Kubs]

I'm looking forward to next Thursday (and Friday for the write up).

Have fun.....

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm looking forward to next Thursday (and Friday for the write up).

Have fun.....

Me and you, both. *good*

 

[ellisdj]

CNo mate I was told the copper and black one sound the best anway.. so happy days

that's a joke btw in case

I have been busy today buddy squeezed a lot more performance from the REF3 ironically all in software. I will get some videos up when I can so people can compare.

In my room the REF3 have about 0.3% distortion in the mid range which is very low obviously so they don't slouch in the mid range

 

[lindsayt]

Of course....and if anything happens, it will have to be a favorable deal, and give me a very special listening experience. The 40.2s seem to be putting a foot in your corner, with a 12" Bass Woofer. Even the Mid is 8".
I am not interested in taking a punt on fairly old speakers...as I'd rather keep what I have.

You already have a well sorted system with which you are happy. It'll be interesting to see if any speakers you audition are worth the money to you or not.

As for the 40.2's, yes the 12" bass driver is OK. The medium sized ported cabinet less so. And the £10.5k asking price makes them very much not my type of speakers.

 

[CnoEvil]

And the £10.5k asking price makes them very much not my type of speakers.

Unless they are a lot less than that, they won't be my sort of speakers either.

At the level I'm looking at, you are always paying a fair amount for an improvement that is hard to justify. In the case of the Kef 3, you are paying for incremental evolution. In the case of the Harbeth, you are going for something the polar opposide in looks and design.

I got my current speakers ex-dem and the ones I'm looking at are ex-dem and second hand, but lightly used. It's the only way I can get into this stuff, without doing what you do.

My back has stopped me getting out and doing a lot of what I used to, so I invest in my system instead.

 

[CnoEvil]

Demo List

I've been through my music collection and highlighted 70 fantastic tracks, of every sort of music. Everything from Infected Mushroom, Yello and Rude Mechanicals to Donny Osmond/ Westlife (not my taste); Joe Bonamassa/Beth Hart to Eva Cassidy; Bethoven to Mozart; OMD to Steely Dan; Adele to Led Zep.

I've now got to whittle that down to a managable amount.