Out with the New, In with the Old?

[ellisdj]

got to be worth the home demo then buddy to scratch the itch properly. before someone reads this and buys them 🙂
it feels like your putting a dealer out asking them to do it but that's their business and it's important to you.

 

[CnoEvil]

got to be worth the home demo then buddy to scratch the itch properly. before someone reads this and buys them 🙂 it feels like your putting a dealer out asking them to do it but that's their business and it's important to you.

I've known Michael since he first started in business in the very early 80s. I've done the bulk of my business with him, along with friends and members of my family...so the relationship is there.

 

[ellisdj]

got to be worth the home demo then buddy to scratch the itch properly. before someone reads this and buys them 🙂 it feels like your putting a dealer out asking them to do it but that's their business and it's important to you.

I've known Michael since he first started in business in the very early 80s. I've done the bulk of my business with him, along with friends and members of my family...so the relationship is there.

that is what I was getting at its no trouble and its important to you

 

[CnoEvil]

that is what I was getting at its no trouble and its important to you

I'm looking forward to your assessment of the Gaias on your Refs (If I haven't already missed it). Any word from Track Audio?

 

[ellisdj]

I got an acknowledgement I need to chase up 're the GAIA will do this pm

 

[Infiniteloop]

Re:The Harbeths. Interesting that you too could hear the cabinet. For me it ruins the overall effect. The midrange is incredibly lifelike and beautiful, but spoilt by the sound of the cabinet resonating which pulls you back from listening to ‘music’ to ‘sound coming out of a box’. I wonder if Alan has ever experimented with those obviously excellent drivers in a less resonant cabinet?

 

[CnoEvil]

Re:The Harbeths. Interesting that you too could hear the cabinet. For me it ruins the overall effect. The midrange is incredibly lifelike and beautiful, but spoilt by the sound of the cabinet resonating which pulls you back from listening to ‘music’ to ‘sound coming out of a box’. I wonder if Alan has ever experimented with those obviously excellent drivers in a less resonant cabinet?

I certainly didn't find it unpleasant...and would rather have it than many modern speakers that I've heard. I also suspect that they would suit open, metal frame stands, like from Something Solid. With certain music, they were beautiful.....but I felt it was at the expense of other music. Every speaker has its downsides, so you are basically picking the weaknesses that you can live with, as well as picking the strengths that you like.

The Monitor 40.2s are much heavier, more solid and better braced (I think).....so I suspect would have sounded stunning....but at a price.

 

[BigH]

Re:The Harbeths. Interesting that you too could hear the cabinet. For me it ruins the overall effect. The midrange is incredibly lifelike and beautiful, but spoilt by the sound of the cabinet resonating which pulls you back from listening to ‘music’ to ‘sound coming out of a box’. I wonder if Alan has ever experimented with those obviously excellent drivers in a less resonant cabinet?

THis is what Alan Shaw says on the subject: http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/forum/the-science-of-audio/speaker-design/215-bbc-style-thin-wall-cabinets-why-so-special

 

[Infiniteloop]

Re:The Harbeths. Interesting that you too could hear the cabinet. For me it ruins the overall effect. The midrange is incredibly lifelike and beautiful, but spoilt by the sound of the cabinet resonating which pulls you back from listening to ‘music’ to ‘sound coming out of a box’. I wonder if Alan has ever experimented with those obviously excellent drivers in a less resonant cabinet?

THis is what Alan Shaw says on the subject: http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/forum/the-science-of-audio/speaker-design/215-bbc-style-thin-wall-cabinets-why-so-special

I totally understand the theory. Pity I can still hear the cabinet.

 

[davidf]

I totally understand the theory. Pity I can still hear the cabinet.

It makes sense, but pushing resonant frequencies down is moving them towards more energetic frequency ranges, which is surely going to make itself known far more easily - I would expect there to be far less energy involved the further up the frequency range you go.

 

[nopiano]

I totally understand the theory. Pity I can still hear the cabinet.

It makes sense, but pushing resonant frequencies down is moving them towards more energetic frequency ranges, which is surely going to make itself known far more easily - I would expect there to be far less energy involved the further up the frequency range you go.

Hi David, I think it’s better to see it as amplitude rather than energy. We think of bass as having more energy than treble because you can’t see the tweeter move. Surely the point is that lower frequencies are more readily swamped, and therefore inaudible. Or rather less audible than in the voice range, for example.

Hope I've not missed what you were getting at, but it’s so rarely I disagree I wanted to say so!

 

[Macspur]

Re:The Harbeths. Interesting that you too could hear the cabinet. For me it ruins the overall effect. The midrange is incredibly lifelike and beautiful, but spoilt by the sound of the cabinet resonating which pulls you back from listening to ‘music’ to ‘sound coming out of a box’. I wonder if Alan has ever experimented with those obviously excellent drivers in a less resonant cabinet?

THis is what Alan Shaw says on the subject: http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/forum/the-science-of-audio/speaker-design/215-bbc-style-thin-wall-cabinets-why-so-special

I totally understand the theory. Pity I can still hear the cabinet.

Just to help me understand, do you mean at normal listening levels, or when dial is turned up past a certain point? or is it only with certain music? I'm not aware of any cabinet resonance.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[CnoEvil]

Just to help me understand, do you mean at normal listening levels, or when dial is turned up past a certain point? or is it only with certain music? I'm not aware of any cabinet resonance.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

While waiting for Mr. Loop, I will try and explain what I heard.

To me, the Harbeths behaved similarly to a Cello or Violin, where the way the Cabinet behaves is integral to the way it sounds (as opposed to making the cabinet so inert, that it is removed as much as possible from the equation). They sound warm, natural and comforting, especially when playing Acoustic, Folk and Classical music...but it's like it's so focused on voices, that it loses out in other areas.

When we listened, Mrs. Cno's comment was that voices sounded lovely, but it seemed to be at the expense of excitement.

When the volume was turned up, there was a pleasant bloom to the mid bass, much like I got from my old Linn LP12, back in the day. When we switched back to the Kefs, they sounded more "modern"...and by that I mean the bass was tighter, dryer and punchier and the Treble was crisp, yet sweet. On the Harbeths, the Treble was more "liquid".

If the Kefs weren't so well sorted, I would have preferred the Harbeths, as they do a lot of things that I really like - but remember, the Harbeths are a little over a third the price. A much fairer fight would have been with the 40.2s, which if given enough room and driven by a powerful Amp (ie. more than my 35Watts), could well come out on top.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Just to help me understand, do you mean at normal listening levels, or when dial is turned up past a certain point? or is it only with certain music? I'm not aware of any cabinet resonance.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

While waiting for Mr. Loop, I will try and explain what I heard.

To me, the Harbeths behaved similarly to a Cello or Violin, where the way the Cabinet behaves is integral to the way it sounds (as opposed to making the cabinet so inert, that it is removed as much as possible from the equation). They sound warm, natural and comforting, especially when playing Acoustic, Folk and Classical music...but it's like it's so focused on voices, that it loses out in other areas.

When we listened, Mrs. Cno's comment was that voices sounded lovely, but it seemed to be at the expense of excitement.

When the volume was turned up, there was a pleasant bloom to the mid bass, much like I got from my old Linn LP12, back in the day. When we switched back to the Kefs, they sounded more "modern"...and by that I mean the bass was tighter, dryer and punchier and the Treble was crisp, yet sweet. On the Harbeths, the Treble was more "liquid".

If the Kefs weren't so well sorted, I would have preferred the Harbeths, as they do a lot of things that I really like - but remember, the Harbeths are a little over a third the price. A much fairer fight would have been with the 40.2s, which if given enough room and driven by a powerful Amp (ie. more than my 35Watts), could well come out on top.

Exactly so. To me, Harbeths sound more like a musical instrument, beautiful yes, but not ‘honest’. Big Orchestral music especially seems to display this trait. Sonus Fabers have a similar beautiful midband, but are much more neutral, for example.

Sorry for the delay. I’m in Washington!

 

[BigH]

So the Harbeth's were not so good with music such as Infected Mushroom?

How did they cope with double bass? I always use some double bass because it's a good test of how a speaker can handle it, I have heard cabinets vibrating even at moderate volumes, thats a big no no for me. Years ago I remember testing some Wharfdales which were lovely on vocals but play some bass and they turned to jelly.

Just going back to the amp. warm-up issue, do you think that it was because it's class A?

 

[CnoEvil]

So the Harbeth's were not so good with music such as Infected Mushroom?

How did they cope with double bass? I always use some double bass because it's a good test of how a speaker can handle it, I have heard cabinets vibrating even at moderate volumes, thats a big no no for me. Years ago I remember testing some Wharfdales which were lovely on vocals but play some bass and they turned to jelly.

Just going back to the amp. warm-up issue, do you think that it was because it's class A?

It was never going to be a fair showdown, as the Harbeths simply didn't have the scale and impact of the Refs (whose Bass is so well sorted, that it sounds more like a sealed cabinet and just goes deeper).

With the Harbeths, Infected Mushroom sounded interesting and a little polite....through the Kefs, it was dramatic and shocking.

With individual acoustic instruments, like Double Bass, the Harbeths were very real and natural....but just didn't quite have the bass grunt. The overall performance from the Harbeths was just a more relaxed listen...a sort of chilling out in your favorite, smoke-filled Jazz Club, experience. Wheras the Refs had a grab you by the ghoulies, "make you sit up and pay attention" presentation.

On the warm up, I was expecting the Class A to heat up quickly....you usually get 1 deg heat for every Watt that the amp has. The 35i is incredibly revealing, with a very dramatic, exciting sound.....but when very cold, especially through the Refs (which take no prisoners), there was a lot of detail...but with all the natural warmth removed, making it an uncomfortable experience.

 

[davidf]

So despite the reputations of certain manufacturers/speakers, and claims made by many people, it is still a case of not only is there a single solution for everyone due personal preference, but also no single solution to cover ever music genre, as they all require something a little different to be authentically/convincingly reproduced.

I don’t know how it compared to your findings Cno, but the post I made a few pages ago where I guessed which track would suit which speaker, knowing the above. I wouldn’t have expected the Harbeth’s to even come close with Infected Mushroom, but then I knew there’d be other tracks that would suit the Harbeth’s.

But then, I’ve found this for a long time, which is why I usually use one of Boards Of Canada's albums as starters. There’s been a number of speakers that just don’t reproduce it convincingly, the most recent one I mentioned was the Devialet Phantoms (which I found really odd, as you’d think they’d do justice to modern, electronic music!). If a speaker can’t get past that first test, it goes no further as far as I’m concerned, from a personal interest I mean. I found the same with ProAc, a brand I generally like the sound of, but their strengths lay elsewhere, particularly with non amplified instruments.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yup, it is very hard to find that all round speaker.

I can only comment on the 2 speakers I heard....and to hear the pinacle of what Harbeth can achieve would have been interesting and fairer (but out of reach).

From that dem, the Refs were a better "do everything" speaker...even if the voices were a touch more natural on the Harbeths - but that could have been down to the quality of the recording, where the Harbeths are more forgiving.

 

[Macspur]

So the Harbeth's were not so good with music such as Infected Mushroom?

How did they cope with double bass? I always use some double bass because it's a good test of how a speaker can handle it, I have heard cabinets vibrating even at moderate volumes, thats a big no no for me. Years ago I remember testing some Wharfdales which were lovely on vocals but play some bass and they turned to jelly.

Just going back to the amp. warm-up issue, do you think that it was because it's class A?

It was never going to be a fair showdown, as the Harbeths simply didn't have the scale and impact of the Refs (whose Bass is so well sorted, that it sounds more like a sealed cabinet and just goes deeper).

With the Harbeths, Infected Mushroom sounded interesting and a little polite....through the Kefs, it was dramatic and shocking.

With individual acoustic instruments, like Double Bass, the Harbeths were very real and natural....but just didn't quite have the bass grunt. The overall performance from the Harbeths was just a more relaxed listen...a sort of chilling out in your favorite, smoke-filled Jazz Club, experience. Wheras the Refs had a grab you by the ghoulies, "make you sit up and pay attention" presentation.

On the warm up, I was expecting the Class A to heat up quickly....you usually get 1 deg heat for every Watt that the amp has. The 35i is incredibly revealing, with a very dramatic, exciting sound.....but when very cold, especially through the Refs (which take no prisoners), there was a lot of detail...but with all the natural warmth removed, making it an uncomfortable experience.

Interesting Cno... have to admit I found Infected Mushroom amazing and in no way polite, but I guess I need to hear the Kefs for myself to see what you mean and of course it could always come down to personal taste.

Btw, thanks for the explanation earlier.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[MUSICRAFT]

it is very hard to find that all round speaker.

Hi Cno

I think loudspeakers such as the Dutch & Dutch Studio 8c do the trick as I feel they’ve done the job nicely with the various genre of music I’ve put through them.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Cno

I think loudspeakers such as the Dutch & Dutch Studio 8c do the trick as I feel they’ve done the job nicely with the various genre of music I’ve put through them.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Thx Rick...it's a speaker that has never crossed my path.

My own Refs aren't too shabby and the New Refs should have raised the bar again.

 

[CnoEvil]

Interesting Cno... have to admit I found Infected Mushroom amazing and in no way polite, but I guess I need to hear the Kefs for myself to see what you mean and of course it could always come down to personal taste.

Btw, thanks for the explanation earlier.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

My description is relative. The presentation of the Harbeths re Infected Mushroom wasn't polite per se.....but compared to the Refs it was "more polite".

If I could have pumped 400 Watts into the Monitor 40.2s, the story could be very different.

To really get the effect of Infected Mushroom, I fire up the Sub, whose 18 inch driver goes down to 12 Hz.

 

[insider9]

Apologies Cno. Feel like I jinxed your demo.

I'm glad you're looking to hear them at home. It would be such a shame to stop at that point.

 

[CnoEvil]

Apologies Cno. Feel like I jinxed your demo.

I'm glad you're looking to hear them at home. It would be such a shame to stop at that point.

You absolutely didn't, as I have more than enough jinx to go round.

If I hadn't had a direct comparison between the two Reference series a while ago (Akurate DS/ Arcam A49), I could well have been put off.

Having listened again at home to a lot of the demo tracks, there is a noticeable lack of resolution compared to what we heard at Lyric....so if the home dem of the Refs 3s keeps the extra detail and loses the very slight hard edge (which is what I heard when I compared the different Refs), then they could be keepers.

 

[insider9]

Familiar setting and the whole setup to AB should you need. I'm sure you know it well enough almost not to bother.

I hope it is as you say added resolution without the edge. The pursuit of detail often leads to speakers that are impressive at first listen but tire out at long listening. I'm sure Kef would know better and there's nothing in your system that should contribute to it. Perhaps it was either room acoustics or even longer warm up was needed.