New amplifier: my long journey...

[acalex]

The Naim/Magnepan combo sounded so good I (we, really) didn't bother listening to much else - felt right, so we jumped in.

can't help but to back up A.L.'s post.

buy a decent amp first and only then start looking for a good set of speakers. but before you commit to buying anything make sure you try out planar speakers. ribbon/ magnetic (Magnepans, Audio Analysis) or electrostatics (Quad, Martin Logan, King Sound; for instance) will be too insensitive for amps of your choice. ~ 30W will not yield enough juice to make them sound dynamically convincing. but there's Podium Sound with their planars which are neither electrostatic nor ribbon/ magnetostats but they are very sensitive for planars (around 95 dB sensitivity) so a 30W amp will be definitely enough. they are on my "to be listened to" wish list as they are so sensitive and 1-way speakers (no crossover) which only promises good things. give them a try if you have a chance. or give any planars you'll come across a try. I think you'll not be disappointed. it's hard to explain how bipolar planars are different than box speakers. you must hear to know. but as you listened to some planars you'll know there's no turning back to box speakers (even Sonus Faber ) as you know you'll loose too much.

BTW. I should note I recently bought Magnepan MG12 for a try. and haven't hooked up my Dynaudio Focus 110 ever since Maggies came. that says something, I think.

Thanks for good suggestions. I like to take different views before assessing something, so I really welcome your advices. I have looked on website and apparently this dealer has Magnepans and Quad in stock, I will try to give them a try next time I am there. Those speakers need to be very good to make me forget the Sonus Faber GM I have tried

We will see...

 

[tino]

Hi acalex ... have you got the January WHF magazine ... I didn't manage to get it but I hear there is a Pathos Inpol Remix review in there. The summary is:

"Design Miracle, Clever hybrid circuitry working in Class A mode and producing a great sound - with just 10 watts per channel. Five Star ***** rating. A sweet, insightful and fluid sound: organised character, stunning appearance. VERDICT: Not cheap or powerful, but the InPolRemix is a truly brilliant performer."

 

[acalex]

Hi acalex ... have you got the January WHF magazine ... I didn't manage to get it but I hear there is a Pathos Inpol Remix review in there. The summary is:

"Design Miracle, Clever hybrid circuitry working in Class A mode and producing a great sound - with just 10 watts per channel. Five Star ***** rating. A sweet, insightful and fluid sound: organised character, stunning appearance. VERDICT: Not cheap or powerful, but the InPolRemix is a truly brilliant performer."

Tino...nice to read from you!

Pathos is my next target...this week or next one. I will listen to the all family...we will see how they cope with my favorite so far...

 

[tino]

Hi acalex ... have you got the January WHF magazine ... I didn't manage to get it but I hear there is a Pathos Inpol Remix review in there. The summary is:

"Design Miracle, Clever hybrid circuitry working in Class A mode and producing a great sound - with just 10 watts per channel. Five Star ***** rating. A sweet, insightful and fluid sound: organised character, stunning appearance. VERDICT: Not cheap or powerful, but the InPolRemix is a truly brilliant performer."

Tino...nice to read from you!

Pathos is my next target...this week or next one. I will listen to the all family...we will see how they cope with my favorite so far...

Prego :cheers:

... we wait to hear from you soon ... you are our unofficial hi-end eyes and golden ears ;-)

 

[acalex]

Hi acalex ... have you got the January WHF magazine ... I didn't manage to get it but I hear there is a Pathos Inpol Remix review in there. The summary is:

"Design Miracle, Clever hybrid circuitry working in Class A mode and producing a great sound - with just 10 watts per channel. Five Star ***** rating. A sweet, insightful and fluid sound: organised character, stunning appearance. VERDICT: Not cheap or powerful, but the InPolRemix is a truly brilliant performer."

Tino...nice to read from you!

Pathos is my next target...this week or next one. I will listen to the all family...we will see how they cope with my favorite so far...

Prego :cheers:

... we wait to hear from you soon ... you are our unofficial hi-end eyes and golden ears ;-)

I am flattered! :cheers:

In the meantime there is a way to change my picture?!? It seems in my profile the picture is upgraded but in the post I see the old one stretched... :wall:

 

[acalex]

Well, in this super cold afternoon (-8 Celsius here in Bx) I went to the shop in Brussels to compare the Jadis DA50S and the MF AMS35i head to head. This time source was a better and far more expensive cd player, the dCS Puccini...wow what's a difference from the begininng. The source really makes a day and night difference...but this is another story.

Started with the AMS35...connected to the usual Avalon Idea (9k eur mark) which are a great match for the AMS35 given their speed and accuracy...maybe a bit on the bright side.

It was a bit cold the AMS35 at the beginning (the guy switched it one just half an hour before) but was already showing what's capable of. After another half an hour it was so much better. Cabling was something in the mid-range, nothing super expensive.

I already explained what I think of these 2 amaing amps...I will focus more on the difference I found in the direct comparison. I was almost puzzled in the end as I couldn't find the differences I was expecting to find! I will argument a bit better...

The Jadis was brilliant with voices and simple pieces (voice + 1 instrument is the perfect match for Jadis). Very emotional, very musical...but the AMS35 was almost the same! I seriously had a lot of troubles to spot serious difference between these 2 amps here...and this is where the tube was supposed to shine. To be fair, I think the Jadis was a bit better on voices...but what about the rest?

We tried complicated recordings (like big orchestra with voices and a lot of instruments) and the AMS was far better in giving back the rtyhm and the huge dynamics, much faster, always in control...we could bring the volume up and would always perform at its best. The Jadis was very nice of course, but you could spot the limits, the rhytm was not comparable, the sound was less "deep" with the Jadis (not sure how to explain).

We tried also a complex drums piece...and again you could spot the limits of the Jadis compared to the AMS35. In the end I think the Jadis was slight better on voices, but this would not offset the fact that the AMS35 was better on a wider spectrum.

I then tried to negotiate some price for the AMS35 and the best I could squeeze for the demo one was 5.7k (4.7kGBP), is that a fair price?

I am back into big head scratching now....I would like to try the AMS35 with the Guarneri Memento but that is just not possible...cz I really liked the emtions I got from the duo Jadis+Memento and would like to see if that would be the same for the AMS35.

Well tomorrow I am going to my favorite shop and try to figure something out with him also...stay tuned, I will make my decision by the end of this month

 

[tino]

I then tried to negotiate some price for the AMS35 and the best I could squeeze for the demo one was 5.7k (4.7kGBP), is that a fair price?

£3999 ...

http://www.kronosav.com/products#ecwid:category=1720028&mode=product&product=7409718

 

[acalex]

I then tried to negotiate some price for the AMS35 and the best I could squeeze for the demo one was 5.7k (4.7kGBP), is that a fair price?

£3999 ...

http://www.kronosav.com/products#ecwid:category=1720028&mode=product&product=7409718

Yes, but this is second hand...the one I am supposed to buy is basically brand new. It came from MF for the listeniing, and will go back if I dont buy it...plus if I buy outside Belgium I need a shop which will deduct the VAT as I will use my Belgian VAT number to make the purchase...I will contact these guys anyway, thanks for the tip

 

[CnoEvil]

Given your absence, I thought you were up to something! :shifty:

The amp that Tino mentioned is at one of my local dealers, who is selling it on behalf of a customer.

With regard to the price you've been offered, I think it's very fair, as the most you can usually get off a brand new amp is 10% (£5400)......so I think you are getting it at around the ex-dem price.

As usual I have a few thoughts:

- DCS make some of the very best CDPs/Dacs available, so no more complaints about the source.....how close did this get, compared to vinyl. They also make the Debussy Dac, which is stunning. As you have probably witnessed, the more expensive the amp, the more expensive the source has to be to show what it can do.

- I would like you to hear the 35i with Cardas cabling (G. Ref power cord / G.Cross s/c and i/c. This will (imo) add that little bit of richness and remove any brightness.....I'm not recommending you buy it at this stage, but it could make your buying decision easier ie. If it turns the 35i into your perfect amp, it can be done later.....you should find that just adding the Cardas p/c makes a big difference.

- The 35i does sound like it has an extra octave of bass.....as I've mentioned before, with my Refs, it's like having a sub on. It also has remarkable control, resolution and transient response, which once heard, is hard to walk away from. It can make other amps sound slow witted in comparison (I'm glad you heard it when properly warmed up).

- The synergy with the speakers is crucial, and given how the SF GMs "move you", it's vital that you try the 35i with them (try to find a way!). I suspect that this might be the clincher ie. which amp sounds best with them will win the day.
I would still urge you to try 35i + 205/2s + Cardas + decent source.....I then have a reference point, as I know this presentation like the back of my hand.

- If you can get the sound you want from a SS amp, it will be a lot less hassle in the future....but not worth compromising on if you prefer valves (this is why I want you to try Cardas cables, which raise the musicality of the MF even higher).

- If you feel the 35i wins the day, then it's a matter of getting the best speaker match....and if all else has failed, you can then bring the newly bought amp to the SFs. This means you will have to decide which is more important, amp or speakers....ie. The SFs with the right amp (Jardis); or MF with SF/Avalon/Kef/other.

This is what's going through my head, so what do you think?

 

[acalex]

Given your absence, I thought you were up to something! :shifty: The amp that Tino mentioned is at one of my local dealers, who is selling it on behalf of a customer. With regard to the price you've been offered, I think it's very fair, as the most you can usually get off a brand new amp is 10% (£5400)......so I think you are getting it at around the ex-dem price. As usual I have a few thoughts: - DCS make some of the very best CDPs/Dacs available, so no more complaints about the source.....how close did this get, compared to vinyl. They also make the Debussy Dac, which is stunning. As you have probably witnessed, the more expensive the amp, the more expensive the source has to be to show what it can do. - I would like you to hear the 35i with Cardas cabling (G. Ref power cord / G.Cross s/c and i/c. This will (imo) add that little bit of richness and remove any brightness.....I'm not recommending you buy it at this stage, but it could make your buying decision easier ie. If it turns the 35i into your perfect amp, it can be done later.....you should find that just adding the Cardas p/c makes a big difference. - The 35i does sound like it has an extra octave of bass.....as I've mentioned before, with my Refs, it's like having a sub on. It also has remarkable control, resolution and transient response, which once heard, is hard to walk away from. It can make other amps sound slow witted in comparison (I'm glad you heard it when properly warmed up). - The synergy with the speakers is crucial, and given how the SF GMs "move you", it's vital that you try the 35i with them (try to find a way!). I suspect that this might be the clincher ie. which amp sounds best with them will win the day. I would still urge you to try 35i + 205/2s + Cardas + decent source.....I then have a reference point, as I know this presentation like the back of my hand. - If you can get the sound you want from a SS amp, it will be a lot less hassle in the future....but not worth compromising on if you prefer valves (this is why I want you to try Cardas cables, which raise the musicality of the MF even higher). - If you feel the 35i wins the day, then it's a matter of getting the best speaker match....and if all else has failed, you can then bring the newly bought amp to the SFs. This means you will have to decide which is more important, amp or speakers....ie. The SFs with the right amp (Jardis); or MF with SF/Avalon/Kef/other. This is what's going through my head, so what do you think?

As usual a lot of helpful inputs from you...was really waiting for that.
Ok, so if the shop is selling on behalf of a customer that measn VAT is not deductible...chapter closed than.

Well source is indeed very important but still I think vinyl has that something more...

I must say I am now very confused...I will try tomorrow to ask my dealer in Antwerp if something could be done in order to try the AMS35 with the SFs...as I really loved those speakers, you are right.

Futhermore, my gf loves the Jadis and she thinks the MF is nothing special in terms of design (will I ever be able to understand women?!?). I will pay for it but I would like to keep her involved as well...it is unfair as she didn't see the AMS live yet but she was taken from the tube charm (me too to be honest ).

I also think that MF needed some more running in as it is brand new almost...this could further improve the quality.

Pfff...I am in a difficult situation...maybe a good night sleep will help clarifying my ideas

Thanks for all the support!

 

[CnoEvil]

The first thing I have noticed (and it is not my intention to sound patronizing), is how insightful you have become when listening to the nuances of different amps/speakers......a quick learner, shall we say.

You are now really starting to hear the strengths and weaknesses of the Jadis......ie. Do you want everything sugar coated, or will you miss the extra excitement and detail of the MF. This may be the key to unlocking the answer, and could take a little more time.

As I said some time back, the Jardis will be unbeatable with certain types of music (eg. simple acoustic, violin concertos and Italian Opera), but may not be as versatile...so which amp plays to the strengths of the type of music, to which you are most likely to listen?

Given your love of vinyl, you must also hear the 35i with this. The easiest way to solve your dilemma, is by hearing as many of the relevant permutations as possible....which is not going to be easy, but is preferable, given the money at stake.

Tell the gf, that the hot valves will be hazardous to the large number of kids you are going to have. >) ......only use this as a last resort, as it could be hard to come back from.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Futhermore, my gf loves the Jadis and she thinks the MF is nothing special in terms of design

Pathos Inpol 2 ( ! hint ! hint ! )

I also think that MF needed some more running in as it is brand new almost...this could further improve the quality.

... but don't expect miracles here. what you heard is what you get (unless you convince yourself that sound has changed considerably).

 

[tino]

Is there no happy medium hybrid valve/SS amplifier that would do the trick or are we now at the final shootout round between the Jadis and the MF AMS35i?

FWIW ... I've heard good things about the hybrid AMR-777 and Pathos Ethos both coming in at around 3K and a bit GBP (ish). Probably out of the question auditioning them at this late stage????

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

AMR

nice one! I would definitely go for one of their CDPs... ray:

 

[CnoEvil]

I agree with both Tino and Oldric.

Pathos could well be a happy medium.....and is stylish enough to satisfy all but the hardest cases.

I believe my amp improved over time, but it was subtle and may be my imagination....due to the length of time, AB comparisons were impossible.

 

[tino]

Only one way to sort this out ...

....

 

[CnoEvil]

Only one way to sort this out ...

....

Between us, all were likely to do, is make Acalex's brain explode! :shifty:

 

[acalex]

Only one way to sort this out ...

....

Between us, all were likely to do, is make Acalex's brain explode! :shifty:

Ahaha, is exploding a little bit but I like all inputs as for sure this time whenever I will make my decision I know it will be the right one.

Yes I have become much more attentive to subtle differences now and I can finally spot them (thanks to all the learning I have got here, really appreciated and I won't thank you enough :bounce

Tino, Pathos would be a nice option...but it's very hard to find here in Belgium (no dealers here) but I have to move to Holland. If I do this I won't be able to use my VAT number (as shops won't sell VAT excluded if you are not in the hi-fi business...do not know why but it's like that). Tomorrow I will try to call Pathos and ask what's the official importer in this area. Then I will call them and asks if there is any shop here in Belgium

But if I go for Pathos would be for the Inpol2...as I am afraid only 10W would start becoming even more problematic to match with right speakers.

Well...I felt so confident about my new "audio skills" that today I went in there very confident that the Jadis would have been much better somewhere and a bit less somewhere else. I was convinced the "warmth" of the tube would have taken my away to forget the AMS...but actually the AMS sounded like a freacking tube amp...!

The Jadis was only slightly better on some specific songs/sounds...but he got sand in the face on everything else...especially on pieces with rapid changes of low and high sounds (how to express this in english...big dynamics?). For example a piano playing in background and suddendly a big drum and trumpets jumping in for a few seconds really...the impact was much bigger with the AMS.

On the other hand where I thought the Jadis would suck big time it actually defended itself quite well...the bass department. Even the dealer had to admit (he was pushing me quite hard towards the AMS) that for being a tube amp the Jadis was not bad at ll compared to the monster. Indeed on the song "Night Train" by Christian Mcbride I think the Jadis wasn't bad at all compared with the AMS. But again...only one instrument...nothing too complex...the perfect situation for the Jadis.

Where I could really tell the difference was a huge orchestra mixing voices and instruments on a very intense piece. A dificult recording...but that was much more impressive on the AMS. The Jadis seemed not to be able to reach certain limits of intensity...even turning up the volume.

Something I also noticed about the volume is that Jadis is very effective at the beginning...but after a certain point you keep turning up but don't get the same response on music. Every notch of AMS was like adding more intensity...I have listened to a level which would be impossible for me...and I still quite enjoyed....

What to say...I will hope to go tomorrow to the second shop and see what I can do with him...he also has in stock the AMR...

 

[tino]

But if I go for Pathos would be for the Inpol2...as I am afraid only 10W would start becoming even more problematic to match with right speakers.

Hi acalex ... the Pathos Ethos is actually 100W per channel into 8 ohm .... I think you are thinking of the Inpol Remix which is the Class A 10W per channel. The Ethos is a valve preamp/semiconductor hybrid.

Nevertheless I think you are lucky to have such a fine choice of amplifiers to choose from and I'm sure with your ears, your girlfriend's approval and Cno's expert advice you'll get there in the end. Good luck!

PS If you listen to the AMR-777 ... would be nice to hear how it sounds.

 

[Roby]

Hello

Sorry I couldn't make it today :-(

As I can read there is a big chance you and up withthe AMS.

If you have the chance testing thr clear audio TT on the ams (I would really like to hear that).

Good luck ;-)

 

[acalex]

But if I go for Pathos would be for the Inpol2...as I am afraid only 10W would start becoming even more problematic to match with right speakers.

Hi acalex ... the Pathos Ethos is actually 100W per channel into 8 ohm .... I think you are thinking of the Inpol Remix which is the Class A 10W per channel. The Ethos is a valve preamp/semiconductor hybrid.

Nevertheless I think you are lucky to have such a fine choice of amplifiers to choose from and I'm sure with your ears, your girlfriend's approval and Cno's expert advice you'll get there in the end. Good luck!

PS If you listen to the AMR-777 ... would be nice to hear how it sounds.

Ah yes, you are right I got confused sorry. If I listen to the AMR, I will tell you for sure how it sounds

 

[acalex]

Hello

Sorry I couldn't make it today :-(

As I can read there is a big chance you and up withthe AMS.

If you have the chance testing thr clear audio TT on the ams (I would really like to hear that).

Good luck ;-)

Yes we connected it to a much better cd player and made an head to head comparison. But to be fair I must say that Jose showed me mainly in what the AMS is better than the Jadis...

at the end of the day I like the emotions the Jadis gives but it is impossible not to notice the lack of intensity it has compared to the AMS (if you take it by itself it has plenty enough...than when you compare with the AMS...well its limits begin to get out) in certain situations

 

[acalex]

Well, had to cancel my today's demo as my car decided it was too cold to start this morning...battery dead :shame:

But my favorite dealer made me an huge favour by calling the importer and asking to get the AMS35 shipped to his shop...in this way I can compare AMS vs Jadis with SF memento, Clearaudio Performance TT and Cardas cabling...my dream system so far.

He said he will help to make the best decision...really great to deal with such experienced and helpful people! Unfortunately he's on holiday for 10 days in February so we planned that in a month time...but he will let me keep the Jadis till then

On the other shop they gave me fair prices but not that kind of attention or service I would need. They looked a bit weird at me when I asked them to try the AMS35 at home...if they are expecting me to get 6k eur out without having a home trial...that's end of story!

 

[CnoEvil]

...if they are expecting me to get 6k eur out without having a home trial...that's end of story!

May not be. If this is something that would make life easier, ring MF and speak to Indra; she is very helpful, and can probably expedite matters.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Have you tried Copland or Electrocompaniet? Prefer them myself to Musical Fidelity. There's also T+A, which you might be able to get in Belgium.

You sound like you have amazing dealers over there, mate - puts many to shame, especially a couple in oz that shall remain nameless.