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When should you upgrade your hi-fi? How to control ‘upgradeitis’
CnoEvil said:
Cno seriously this was such an unbelievable experience. The guy is absolutely knowledgeable and super nice. He offered me 3 cups of coffe and biscuits
!First of all, the environment. Super nice atmosphere, not too bright (perfect for relaxing), no sounds around...nice candles to give atmosphere. The shop is not huge but there is so much stuff, everything is tidy but not in a maniacal way. Every speaker has its own cover on top...as you enter you say the Amati Futura...and start dreaming. Cno I can assure you those speakers are stunnig...absolutely superb. Every little detail. He then proposed me a tour of the shop to show me the gear he has. Lot of nice stuff, Lavardin, Krell, Audio Physics, SF, LV speakers and a huge collection of cds and vinyls (he also sells them).
Then he asked me what type of music I like...we never talked about money...never asked me about budget...he made me sit and we plugged the Jadis D50S. I told him I already had a listen but wasn't convinced about the PL200.
He told me actually the Jadis does not need high-sensitivity speakers...then I asked him to point me into the right direction and he plugged the SF Cremona Auditor M, 4500eur the pair. Superb-looking speakers. Very elegant, recognise the Italian touch in them
We started playing and from stone-cold I had a punch in my face when we played first CD (3600 eur cd player). The sound was BEAUTIFUL. It was amazing, so natural , so warm but even so detailed. And basses...my friend such a nice basses these small speakers can reproduce...the sound gradually improved and was unbelievable how after half an hour everything was much smoother, more natural. He started to get out a list of beautiful artists, every type of music, classic, funk, bleus, jazz, vocals...every time he was putting a new CD inside, he was handing over to me the case so I could read and follow. No rush...was listening two, even three songs from same cd.
I was just saying...don't you have something more of this, something more of that...and he would get the cd out straight away. Then at the second coffee he decided it was time to listen to some vinyl. We used a 1100 eur TT (the Clearaudio Concept with a phono preamp starting with E, three letters
, can't remember exactly). And boy....oh boy...what a discover was that. Just played vinly from that moment on...we listened the same song on cd after...recording was super clean but the all emotions were missing on cd!!! It was unbelievable...I decided of course I want a TT. He suggested me that with that amp the next step of clearaudio (at 2500 eur) would be the perfect match. I think price is also very reasonableThen a lot of other music, we talked about DAC (he also has a Sonos with M2Tech Young DAC and sounded very nice as well, and said he can order for me the Audiolab M-DAC if I want)...he's more for the solution 2 pieces (DAC + reader) instead of an all-in one solution...everybody has his own opinion on this
!At a certain point I asked him to do something bad...unplugging the Cremona and plugging the Guarneri memento at 9k eur...mannnnnnnnnnn what an experience. The Jadis had no problem at all at handling these little monsters...the guy had also a very handy digital noise meter and the maximum level we listened was around 82/84 dbA on classical music. Not a single esitation from the Jadis...These speakers are absolutely astonishing. Better basses, more focus, very relaxing at the same time...after 5 hs I wanted to leave and he was saying...ok one more disc and then you go
He also agreed that when listening to the Guarneri, the limit was the amp and the TT. He said with Guarneri the next step from Jadis would be absolutely perfect. So I think I know my direction now (the same you identified before me)...I booked another demo next weekend with my gf also...maybe I will listen to LV and also Cremona M (floorstanders) but I really loved the Guarneri. I think this will be my definitive speaker...
He also said that once I chose, he will give me everything to try at home...and I can switch amp or speakers every 2/3 weeks if I am not convinced. He said I need to keep switching until I can't find something that really suits me. no pressure...wasn't try to sell me anything...amazing seriously.
I have my mind at rest now...I feel peace and I finally now where I am heading to. Thanks a lot for all your help Cno, can't tell you how much you helped me. :bounce:
That sounds like a very interesting day.
I have a few general comments:
-You are discovering the importance of the source. The better DSs get closer to the analogue sound, but in my opinion it takes 24 bit to level the playing field...keep this in mind.
-When you've been let loose in the sweet shop, make sure you try every relevant flavor..eg. LV
- Is it possible to hear AMS 35i + SF (this might happen if you borrowed the MF while home demoing the Jadis + SF/LV)?
- Remember, this sort of kit sounds great..until you hear something better. So don't "jump" until you've tried the main contenders (unlikely I think).
-Since the Jadis (surprisingly) could handle the SF, I can imagine just how good it sounded.
- I know exactly how good vinyl can sound (owned LP12), but it is a lot of faff and LPs take a lot of TLC. They are also expensive, unless you get good at sniffing out 2nd hand bargains, and it also means you have to start your collection from scratch...give this serious consideration before going down this route.
CD can sound much better than you think....you need to hear what Audio Note or Pathos (or DS) can do with Jadis & SR/LV, before going vinyl.
Other than that, I have little to say, (phew) other than you are heading in a very musical direction.
LV vs SF and 35i vs D50s.....brilliant!
I have a few general comments:
-You are discovering the importance of the source. The better DSs get closer to the analogue sound, but in my opinion it takes 24 bit to level the playing field...keep this in mind.
-When you've been let loose in the sweet shop, make sure you try every relevant flavor..eg. LV
- Is it possible to hear AMS 35i + SF (this might happen if you borrowed the MF while home demoing the Jadis + SF/LV)?
- Remember, this sort of kit sounds great..until you hear something better. So don't "jump" until you've tried the main contenders (unlikely I think).
-Since the Jadis (surprisingly) could handle the SF, I can imagine just how good it sounded.
- I know exactly how good vinyl can sound (owned LP12), but it is a lot of faff and LPs take a lot of TLC. They are also expensive, unless you get good at sniffing out 2nd hand bargains, and it also means you have to start your collection from scratch...give this serious consideration before going down this route.
CD can sound much better than you think....you need to hear what Audio Note or Pathos (or DS) can do with Jadis & SR/LV, before going vinyl.
Other than that, I have little to say, (phew) other than you are heading in a very musical direction.
LV vs SF and 35i vs D50s.....brilliant!
CnoEvil said:
Thanks for your comments as usual. Regarding the source I think you are right...these are the solutions I think are going to be my choice for the future....
- Expensive DAC (like tube jadis DAC) + modest cd player (like Rega Apollo) + nice TT (like Clearaudio Performance) + modest digital streamer (connected through the DAC) + headphone amp
- Expensive streamer (like Linn Akurate) + modest CD pl + nice TT + modest DAC (like audiolab MDAC or M2tech to connect other sources like notebook, pc etc) + headphone amp
I don't think I will ever take the route of expensive CD player as I don't use CD that much. But I really would love the vinyl. And in terms of collection...I do not have a huge collection of CDs so far so it's the same story). Plus when you put a vinyl on is for longer listening sessions whilst on NAS I usually jump from one song to another...so actually you need less LPs than CDs
What do you personally think of these SF I tried today? Do you like them?
It is possible to hear the AMS35i + SF (I'll call the shop on Monday to fix a demo) but can't compare head to head with Jadis + LV as the guy in Brussels does not allow gear to leave the shop (unfortunately that's the habit here...). I had to take a 40 minutes train to find this amazing shop with this guy (in Antwerp)
Now ripping the 24/96 cd by Livingston Taylor I got from the shop...will be soon on air :dance:
The fact that the dealer you found had so much music was a great sign, and the brands he kept shows he knows how to get the most out of it.
A Jadis DAC sounds sublime (is it a NOS Dac and what resolution can it handle?)
I don't think you need a CDP at all ie. Expensive Streamer or Transport + Decent DAC (Jadis/Pathos)
The suggestion of the CDPs was really for demo purposes, so you could hear what digital could sound like....this can be replicated with the right Transport and Tube Dac.
If I didn't use my system for AV as well, I would have SF....tells you all you need to know.
When you demo the 35i, try (if possible) to hear it with the same speakers/music that you are now familiar with. You will know quite quickly if you like it....less/as much/far more. Its only the last one that means further head scratching.
A Jadis DAC sounds sublime (is it a NOS Dac and what resolution can it handle?)
I don't think you need a CDP at all ie. Expensive Streamer or Transport + Decent DAC (Jadis/Pathos)
The suggestion of the CDPs was really for demo purposes, so you could hear what digital could sound like....this can be replicated with the right Transport and Tube Dac.
If I didn't use my system for AV as well, I would have SF....tells you all you need to know.
When you demo the 35i, try (if possible) to hear it with the same speakers/music that you are now familiar with. You will know quite quickly if you like it....less/as much/far more. Its only the last one that means further head scratching.
CnoEvil said:
It can handle up to 24/96...and it costs 4k brand new (I will always try to get an ex demo of course, + I will get the VAT back). A tube NOS DAC sounds already a dreaming piece of kit
.When you have such a DAC would you put everything trough it? For example even the TT?
Yes, I will prepare a nice selection of the music I am more familiar with...trying to toss as well some nice and complex classic in the mix.
I really liked all the stuff he selected today like Ike Quebec (Soul Samba), Richard Bona (Reverence), Miles David (Around the world...amazing LP),Patricia Barber (Nightclub), Keb Mo (Keb Mo LP), Stevie Ray, Livingston Taylor (Ink), Ray Charles and Norah Jones, a special record of Rossini (Omaggio a Roma, only 496 copies) and a stunning LP at the end with drums performance (pity I forgot the name)...everything was audiophile production...
Hopefully I will like it as much...otherwise yes...further head scratching
A NOS Dac does no over/upsampling, and in the case of the likes of Audio Note, no filtering as well (ie. no brick wall filter)....it's not necessarily better.
The Pathos InTransfer Mk11 Dac should also be on your radar...it should be around €3k when released. Their Musiteca Streaming solution (£5950) looks gorgeous:
http://www.audiooasis.co.uk/en/prodinfo.php?productid=PAT-CD-Musiteca
A DAC takes the digital signal (1s & 0s) from digital devices (eg. CDP) and converts it to the analogue domain so it can be heard. A TT playing Vinyl, is already in the analogue domain, so doesn't need converting.
Audiophile recordings sound brilliant, so can make most systems sound good, so lesser recordings are necessary for assessment.
The Pathos InTransfer Mk11 Dac should also be on your radar...it should be around €3k when released. Their Musiteca Streaming solution (£5950) looks gorgeous:
http://www.audiooasis.co.uk/en/prodinfo.php?productid=PAT-CD-Musiteca
A DAC takes the digital signal (1s & 0s) from digital devices (eg. CDP) and converts it to the analogue domain so it can be heard. A TT playing Vinyl, is already in the analogue domain, so doesn't need converting.
Audiophile recordings sound brilliant, so can make most systems sound good, so lesser recordings are necessary for assessment.
CnoEvil said:
That's true...even I knew that
The Pathos Musiteca IS stunning...I think has a tube output stage as well...
CnoEvil said:acalex said:
It was this suggestion that prompted the comment.
Yes of course, I knew it! I was saying after reading your comment that I am stupid as I knew that also but don't know why I asked
The speaker cables we used in the shop were those ones AH brand...never heard but pure copper, quite thick and very nice to see also. Absolutely not creazily expensive
acalex said:The speaker cables we used in the shop were those ones AH brand...never heard but pure copper, quite thick and very nice to see also. Absolutely not creazily expensive
I think you should initially stick with the cable that sounds good (like your picture), and not spend a fortune....cables, conditioning and isolation are (imo) all worth doing but can get expensive.
I think you said it yourself, get the gear right now and worry about the rest later.
CnoEvil said:acalex said:The speaker cables we used in the shop were those ones AH brand...never heard but pure copper, quite thick and very nice to see also. Absolutely not creazily expensive
I think you should initially stick with the cable that sounds good (like your picture), and not spend a fortune....cables, conditioning and isolation are (imo) all worth doing but can get expensive. I think you said it yourself, get the gear right now and worry about the rest later.
Funniliy enough is what the dealer said! He said "I think you should stcik with those good cable now, and once you will build your system I will help you to fine tune the sound with more expensive cables...as those are the last thing to take into account". I am glad you say the same...this confirms the great impression I had yesterday.
These speaker cables will cost 125 eur for a meter, 175 for a 2mt pair.
acalex said:
€125/m isn't that cheap, but (in the context of what's out there) it's not expensive either.....imo worth going for if it sounds right.
CnoEvil said:
He also has Cardas speaker cables, but those are much more expensive. And also 1.5 metres power cord Gloden cross reference by Cardas at 500 eur as ex-demo
I checked reccomendations on SF flyer of Guarneri memento model...says 30-200W amps. The next step of the JADIS D50S will be stunning and absolutely perfect I guess with those speakers . Won't ask the dealer to plug it for now...cz is very dangerous.
He also said he will take back everything I bought from him whenever I want to upgrade. Or I could simply leave the stuff in the shop and he will try to sell at the price I want. I think this is very fair...right?
. Won't ask the dealer to plug it for now...cz is very dangerous.He also said he will take back everything I bought from him whenever I want to upgrade. Or I could simply leave the stuff in the shop and he will try to sell at the price I want. I think this is very fair...right?
acalex said:He also has Cardas speaker cables, but those are much more expensive. And also 1.5 metres power cord Gloden cross reference by Cardas at 500 eur as ex-demo
You seem to have an uncanny knack of anticipating my advice before I have given it.
Once you had settled in to your new system, I was going to recommend Cardas...but i wasn't sure if it would be available.
It is my favorite cable (I use Golden Cross) because of its ability to offset "digitalitis". Outside America it's inclined to be very expensive (it's bad enough in America).
In the context of your system, I would have recommended Golden Reference with the Jardis, and Golden Cross with the 35i.
At this stage, it would be too much money to blow on cabling (I also love their power cables).
That really was a gem of a dealer you stumbled upon.....though hazardous to the wallet.
CnoEvil said:acalex said:He also has Cardas speaker cables, but those are much more expensive. And also 1.5 metres power cord Gloden cross reference by Cardas at 500 eur as ex-demo
You seem to have an uncanny knack of anticipating my advice before I have given it. Once you had settled in to your new system, I was going to recommend Cardas...but i wasn't sure if it would be available. It is my favorite cable (I use Golden Cross) because of its ability to offset "digitalitis". Outside America it's inclined to be very expensive (it's bad enough in America). In the context of your system, I would have recommended Golden Reference with the Jardis, and Golden Cross with the 35i. At this stage, it would be too much money to blow on cabling (I also love their power cables). That really was a gem of a dealer you stumbled upon.....though hazardous to the wallet.
Yes, I have to recognize that even if not expert I still have a good eye and instinct for good quality (and unfortunately expensive) stuff.
Yes he has Cardas cable, QED, Transparent cables, PrimaLuna etc...
Made a mistake, the 1mt ex demo was Golden reference power cable at 500 instead of 750eur. He also has golden reference 1mt interconnect as an ex demo...RCA/RCA 1k eur
acalex said:I checked reccomendations on SF flyer of Guarneri memento model...says 30-200W amps. The next step of the JADIS D50S will be stunning and absolutely perfect I guess with those speakers
He also said he will take back everything I bought from him whenever I want to upgrade. Or I could simply leave the stuff in the shop and he will try to sell at the price I want. I think this is very fair...right?
The Jardis is a fairly "gutsy" 30 Watts, so it bodes well (LV may give it a run for the money)
The 35i, due to doubling power into 4 Ohms and again into 2 Ohms, should (in theory) drive the Guarneri Mementos even better....we shall see.
The service you are getting from this dealer, is what I get from the two I use here.....and shows the difference between large stores and specialist / knowledgeable dealers, who are run (with passion) by the owner (and possibly his family).
CnoEvil said:acalex said:I checked reccomendations on SF flyer of Guarneri memento model...says 30-200W amps. The next step of the JADIS D50S will be stunning and absolutely perfect I guess with those speakers
He also said he will take back everything I bought from him whenever I want to upgrade. Or I could simply leave the stuff in the shop and he will try to sell at the price I want. I think this is very fair...right?
The Jardis is a fairly "gutsy" 30 Watts, so it bodes well (LV may give it a run for the money) The 35i, due to doubling power into 4 Ohms and again into 2 Ohms, should (in theory) drive the Guarneri Mementos even better....we shall see. The service you are getting from this dealer, is what I get from the two I use here.....and shows the difference between large stores and specialist / knowledgeable dealers, who are run (with passion) by the owner (and possibly his family).
Indeed, thats the case and I prefer much more this to be honest. I want to feel special when I go there and listen, want to feel that he's really trying to udnerstand what my needs are and then advice instead of just trying to seel me as much as they can within the budget...
acalex said:
The Golden Ref power cable is brilliant and (imo) makes an appreciable difference....just make sure you know if it's being used in the demo!
Well, apparently I managed to convince the shop to get another AMS35i for a demo on Friday afternoon. I will call tomorrow morning for the details.
On saturday taking my gf to "my shop" as she needs to approve ampli and speakers (she already pre-approved everything on photo, but you never know. Anyway impossible not to like the SF). If everything goes well I might come back with the Jadis on Saturday...even if I liked the AMS35i on Friday as I want to try the amp at home before letting 5k eur leaving my bank account :cheers: )
On saturday taking my gf to "my shop" as she needs to approve ampli and speakers (she already pre-approved everything on photo, but you never know
. Anyway impossible not to like the SF). If everything goes well I might come back with the Jadis on Saturday...even if I liked the AMS35i on Friday as I want to try the amp at home before letting 5k eur leaving my bank account :cheers: )
bigboss
Moderator
An absolutely fascinating thread to read! I've no interest in Hi-Fi, at least not so much as to splurge a fortune on it........but this thread is definitely encouraging me to demo some high end equipment! But I won't.....don't want to spoil myself :shame:
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