New amplifier: my long journey...

[acalex]

Hello hello,

another interesting afternoon today. I went to have my first serious listening to a tube amp, the Jadis D50S signature...it is actually on sale as an ex-demo at the dealer's shop...very interesting.

It was plugged at my Silver RX6 at first...we played a lot of different music, jazz, blues, classic, instrumental, voices...a nice mix. The sound produced by the Jadis is superbe, the amp has a great authority without being aggressive...not even turning up the volume.

It has a great control and superb bass. I was very impressed as I was not expecting this level of bass. It really surprised me how deep and tight it was...even with the RX6 you could feel in your stomach sometimes. Live pieces were absolutely stunning, could really feel the emotions, voices were so natural and the scene was very wide.

Sound of piano was very intense, each note was full and complete, clear...

Well, this kind of sound really got me...then he plugged the PL200...and that was it! 😀

The soundstage became bigger, the music gained another level of "liveliness" (can we say that in English? 😀), every sound was more clear....

Now wondering...how would you experts compare the MA PL200 with Kef reference and SF Cremona? The dealer said that Cremona are more adapt to transistor electronics instead of tubes...what do you think?

If I am going to buy a tube amp?!? Well...that's soon to tell, but this sound really got me thinking...I will try to get another demo already tomorrow with the AMS35i (if finally they got it) and with also a much more expensive combo (Primo + AMS35p) to see how they would compete...

 

[acalex]

Well well...in the meantime I also emailed Mr Jadis asking him what would be the perfect match in terms of speakers for the Jadis....as to be honest...I was very impressed by the PL200 but for a short moment I had the impression the Silver RX6 were actually sounding better...

 

[CnoEvil]

I've just got my timing a little wrong.

The valves would have nicely offset the slight forwardness of the MA sound, but I have reservations about the suitability of them with that valve amp....which I'm happy for more technical folk to comment on.

I also think the Kef Refs and the Cremonas, are both unsuitable to be driven with a Valve amp as well. They both have high sensitivity but nose-diving impedance.

IMO The MAs are a bit on the brighter side of neutral, the Kefs a touch the other side of neutral and the SFs are a bit warmer....but this is subjective.

For Valves look for speakers with a sensitivity of 90db +, and an impedance that doesn't drop too low. Audio Note were designed for the job and possibly the Proac D40R, which they say will work with amps from 10W (can't confirm though). I also think Renaud might be suitable: http://www.jm-reynaud.com/jmr/anglais/accueil_us.php

The shop selling the Jadis must have a range of less current hungry speakers, that they could put forward.

How did you find the presentation vs Plinius + Kefs?

Maybe your technical friend can comment on Jadis + Kef/MA as a viable proposition.

 

[CnoEvil]

Well well...in the meantime I also emailed Mr Jadis asking him what would be the perfect match in terms of speakers for the Jadis....as to be honest...I was very impressed by the PL200 but for a short moment I had the impression the Silver RX6 were actually sounding better...

This is very sensible, and you could also contact Dean Hartley of MA.

Edit. I meant to say that the dealer was possibly worried that the warmer valve sound would be a little too much with the SFs

 

[acalex]

This is very sensible, and you could also contact Dean Hartley of MA. Edit. I meant to say that the dealer was possibly worried that the warmer valve sound would be a little too much with the SFs

Do you have his contact? Hi tried once to contact the technical department of MA and they were not very helpful saying they were not aware of that specific amp so they just gave me the impedance curve and suggested to ask the amplifiers'producer...

 

[acalex]

I've just got my timing a little wrong. The valves would have nicely offset the slight forwardness of the MA sound, but I have reservations about the suitability of them with that valve amp....which I'm happy for more technical folk to comment on. I also think the Kef Refs and the Cremonas, are both unsuitable to be driven with a Valve amp as well. They both have high sensitivity but nose-diving impedance. IMO The MAs are a bit on the brighter side of neutral, the Kefs a touch the other side of neutral and the SFs are a bit warmer....but this is subjective. For Valves look for speakers with a sensitivity of 90db +, and an impedance that doesn't drop too low. Audio Note were designed for the job and possibly the Proac D40R, which they say will work with amps from 10W (can't confirm though). I also think Renaud might be suitable: http://www.jm-reynaud.com/jmr/anglais/accueil_us.php The shop selling the Jadis must have a range of less current hungry speakers, that they could put forward. How did you find the presentation vs Plinius + Kefs? Maybe your technical friend can comment on Jadis + Kef/MA as a viable proposition.

Well Cno, to be completely honest with you, I think the Jadis was great with the Silver RX6. It really did not dissapoint me at all...

Then he switched to the PL200 and I was ALREADY expecting to hear a huge improvement...but my first istinctive reaction was that I preferred the first sound. Then I said to myself...it must be impossible...as they cost 6 times more...they have to be better. Was also influenced by the dealer who kept saying how clener and nicer the sound was...but my gut feeling was that one.

Unfortunately thies friend lives in Italy so can't really judge. I can ask him for an advice...but speaking about PL200 he said that he tried them once but didn't like as he found the sound too artificial at specific frequencies...and also he said the "s" were hissing...

What do you think of Focal? Or B&W?

EDIT: The Focal Electra 1038Be have a 93db sensitivity and a 40-400W reccomended amp.

 

[CnoEvil]

Do you have his contact? Hi tried once to contact the technical department of MA and they were not very helpful saying they were not aware of that specific amp so they just gave me the impedance curve and suggested to ask the amplifiers'producer...

I'm afraid I don't, as I've never really got on with modern MAs (I share your friends view of the Platinum range). Dean has been known to frequent these parts on occasion, and failing that, WHF may be able to help.

I suspect your speakers sounded better, because of the PL200 not being driven properly. You will only know for sure when you find speakers with an easy load.

I'm not a great fan of B&W, though to be fair, I haven't heard their most recent models.

Focal are a bit forward for my taste, and when not on the end of Class A (or something like Arcam) are too bright. The bass is very tight and accurate, and although they are very sensitive, the dearer models have plummeting impedance (Electra 1038BE goes down to 3.3 Ohms)

 

[acalex]

Do you have his contact? Hi tried once to contact the technical department of MA and they were not very helpful saying they were not aware of that specific amp so they just gave me the impedance curve and suggested to ask the amplifiers'producer...

I'm afraid I don't, as I've never really got on with modern MAs (I share your friends view of the Platinum range). Dean has been known to frequent these parts on occasion, and failing that, WHF may be able to help. I suspect your speakers sounded better, because of the PL200 not being driven properly. You will only know for sure when you find speakers with an easy load. I'm not a great fan of B&W, though to be fair, I haven't heard their most recent models. Focal are a bit forward for my taste, and when not on the end of Class A (or something like Arcam) are too bright. The bass is very tight and accurate, and although they are very sensitive, the dearer models have plummeting impedance (Electra 1038BE goes down to 3.3 Ohms)

Yes indeed, I saw that! Can't find a speaker which has high sensitivity and impedance not dropping so low...

Tomorrow I will make some phone calls and see if I can pile some demo as following

- Plinius + valve preamp VS Primo + AMS35p VS AMS35i

I might have found a couple of shops around (yes...less than 100km far) which have both Plinius and MF

 

[CnoEvil]

EDIT: The Focal Electra 1038Be have a 93db sensitivity and a 40-400W reccomended amp.

Out of Kef, SF and MA, they would probably be a better load, and the euphonious Jadis would help tame them.....though I think that they too, are not ideal.

 

[CnoEvil]

Did you prefer the Jadis or the Plinius driving your speakers?

EDIT. This crowd are in Belgium and stock Audio Note:

http://audio-life.nl/speakers

Sorry it's listed under Belgum, but is in fact Holland. 😳

 

[acalex]

Did you prefer the Jadis or the Plinius driving your speakers?

EDIT. This crowd are in Belgium and stock Audio Note:

http://audio-life.nl/speakers

Sorry it's listed under Belgum, but is in fact Holland. 😳

Tricky question...I am not sure to be honest as the Plinius was so long ago. With my speakers I think the Jadis was better...with high-end maybe the Plinius...but I can't really compare with the Jadis as probably, as you said, the PL200 were not a proper load for the Jadis.

EDIT: I think the Plinius was a bit "imprisoned" with the RX6 whilst the Jadis was able to shine...

Basses of the Jadis really impressed me...and I wasn't expecting that to be honest

Yes I know...it's always the same story. Most of the dealers for Belgium are actually based in Holland or even Germany sometimes :wall:

 

[acalex]

....which I'm happy for more technical folk to comment on ...

Indeed, me too. But it appears like a one to one conversation usually when I open a thread on gear I have tried and I am looking for advices 🙂

 

[CnoEvil]

If you end up preferring the Jardis and want to match it with some of the speakers mentioned (SF/Kef/Focal etc), you should look at the Jardis DA88S, which should (imo) have enough grunt to cope properly. Apparently they go well with the likes of Proac D40R.

Another make of speaker that goes great with both Jardis models are the OBX-R2s or RWs from Living Voice. I think this might be hard to beat, if you like that seductive sound.

The MF offerings are also a must demo, as I think you might prefer them to the Plinius.

 

[acalex]

If you end up preferring the Jardis and want to match it with some of the speakers mentioned (SF/Kef/Focal etc), you should look at the Jardis DA88S, which should (imo) have enough grunt to cope properly. Apparently they go well with the likes of Proac D40R. Another make of speaker that goes great with both Jardis models are the OBX-R2s or RWs from Living Voice. I think this might be hard to beat, if you like that seductive sound. The MF offerings are also a must demo, as I think you might prefer them to the Plinius.

Thanks Cno for all support! 🙂

I am getting very confused to be honest as I am not sure which sound I prefer. I would like to take the Jadis next to the Plinius and MF and listen...but unfortunately that's not possible.

For now I would put the Jadis on top of Plinis+M8 using my RX6. Also for the price...I might get the Jadis next week whilst I need to plan more carefully the purchase of Plinius + preamp...and anyway I could not get both at the same time as I need to save some cash for the business I am starting also. In that case could I use for now my Vincent SV129 as preamp for example? It has pre-outs.

Living Audio...I read very good comments on those...I might actually call the dealer (there is one at 40 minutes driving from here) and ask if they have the Jadis...not sure

 

[acalex]

If you end up preferring the Jardis and want to match it with some of the speakers mentioned (SF/Kef/Focal etc), you should look at the Jardis DA88S, which should (imo) have enough grunt to cope properly. Apparently they go well with the likes of Proac D40R. Another make of speaker that goes great with both Jardis models are the OBX-R2s or RWs from Living Voice. I think this might be hard to beat, if you like that seductive sound. The MF offerings are also a must demo, as I think you might prefer them to the Plinius.

Why do you think so? In what you think the Plinius combo would differ from the MF one?

Thanks

 

[CnoEvil]

It is my opinion that Musical Fidelity currently make the best sounding Class A amps in their price range.

The SA-103 is supposed to give 125W in Class A, weighs 38kg and draws 485 Watts from the mains. Compare that to Musical Fidelity:
AMS 35P (W)....31kg (draws 400W)
AMS 50 (W).....60kg (draws 600W)
AMS 100 (W)...100kg (draws 1200W)

Let's just say I think the MFs will get closer to the sound you are looking for.

The initial confusion is quite natural. Finding the right Hifi is like meeting the right partner...you will just "know". At the level you are prepared to spend, your jaw will be on the floor and time will pass very quickly (like a good first date!).

Since having had an almost exclusive dialogue with you about this over the last while, I have a "seat of the pants" view of the sound you are looking for (always dangerous before the event).

It would be my guess, that at number one, would be the Jadis amp with something like the Living Voice speakers.
This will be such an emotionally musical involving experience, that everything else you listen to, will sound almost mechanical by comparison. It won't be a strictly neutral presentation, but that won't be foremost on your mind, as you are swept away by the sheer passion and beauty of the music.

If you wish to consider more "normal" speakers, I think you would need to go for the DA88, which would sound incredible with the Proacs (or Kefs)...so this would be my 2nd choice for you.

Thirdly I would go with the MA AMS with the SF Cremonas...slightly more neutral (less sugar coated), still incredibly musical but with a bit more excitement and maybe a greater versatility with all genres of music. It would also be easier to live with and maintain, being all solid state.

My fourth choice would be the Inpol with the Kefs

Also don't forget, that none of these suggested pairings will sound right without a good source.

 

[acalex]

.... It would be my guess, that at number one, would be the Jadis amp with something like the Living Voice speakers. This will be such an emotionally musical involving experience, that everything else you listen to, will sound almost mechanical by comparison. .....

Well, I think you spot it Cno...straight to the point. I think I might have came to a conclusion, I am trying to argument here, won't be a short post :rofl:

You got it completely on the emotional sound. The first time I heard the Jadis with my speakers my jaw just dropped. I couldn't believe that actually the RX6 were sounding like that. When he played Hotel California live version...just the clapping of hands were enough to give me the shivers...and bass was just a punch at the stomach every time. That was with normal power cable, normal speaker cable, RX6 and a 1000 eur cd player. So that's just the beginning of the scale...the room for improvement is still huge.

Regarding the other alternatives, I went through the following reasoning.

- I still do not have enough listening experience to recognise maybe the small differences between high-end setups. I might not be able to spot an huge difference between Pathos, Plinius and Musical Fidelity yet...so I feel I need to learn more before being ready to invest serious money on any gear.

- The first point makes me feel uncomfortable spending 10k or more without really being able to spot the differences between two high quality systems. Since I am a conservative person when it comes to money, I prefer having a more mature experience before investing that amount

- The first two points together made me thing that this one probably won't be my definitive choice. Hence I have to think how to get out without an huge loss. I made a small research today and realised that the Jadis can be easily resold at not less than 2600-2800 eur. Considering that the Jadis is an ex-demo would cost me 3300 + VAT (which I don't pay as I have a VAT number) this would leave me with a really low risk if I want to sell in 2, 3 or 4 years with a very small and acceptable loss.

- I have always been attracted by valve amplifiers and I think once in life I have to own one 🙂 and this might be the moment as the valves run quite an high voltage and might be dangerous if there are kids around (not in plan for now, but might be thinking about it end of 2012...if the world does not end 😀)

- It still not my definitive house (I am renting)...so I am quite uncomfortable spending loads of money now when the room might be completely different next year already (I told you I am conservative 😀)

- If I develop a true passion for valves, I can always change the D50 to get the beautiful DA88...which for now is out of question as I won't invest 11k eur on an integrated amp...for reason number 1, not enough experience yet and not sure this is going to be my final gear. I am willing to spend this money when I will be sure it will be the definitive one.

- Can't buy everything at once now. Meaning that if I would go for an option pre+power amp, I would need to get the power amp now and then wait a bit to get the preamp...meaning I won't be able to enjoy straight away the beautiful sound. This because I prefer not to risk too much cash in a period where I might need more liquidity to run my second business.

- Much easier to find a Jadis dealer. It is a french company, I speak french and I live very close (I am in Paris in 3 hours). Also in Belgium there are at least 4/5 shops having it within a 30 minutes drive. For MF combo (Primo plus AMS35p) there are no dealers in Belgium (I spoke today with the distributor) and I need to go to Rotterdam where the importer is (which is faaaaaaaaar away).

So my conclusion is...I can spend relatively little money now and enjoy a lot NOW a system which I tried and I like. Then when my future plans will be clearer, I would think of upgrading (if necessary) to a pre+power or just stick with a more powerful tube amp/

I still want to listen to the AMS35i which at this point might be the only alternative to the D50S. But again, convinced it won't be my final choice I would prefer to try NOW a valve amp...time and experience will guide me in the future.

Plus I found a really nice dealer having the Jadis and the Living Audio in the same shop :bounce:

Uff...that was quite a post... what do you think?

-

 

[tino]

Your ears are younger than they will be in a few years ... so you will be able to hear more now 😉

PS Have you tried listening to a more modestly price valve amplifier just to see what the differences are between 1K Euro up to £3K Euro that you are planning to spend?

 

[acalex]

Your ears are younger than they will be in a few years ... so you will be able to hear more now 😉

PS Have you tried listening to a more modestly price valve amplifier just to see what the differences are between 1K Euro up to £3K Euro that you are planning to spend?

Ahah, for sure but not at all used to listen critically and identifying what differs from one another. Plus I said 2,3,4 years, not in 40 years (do not intend to offend anyone with this) 😉

I actually listened to a more expensive tube amp (6k eur) which I didn't like as much as I liked the Jadis. It sounded colder, more mechanical.

 

[CnoEvil]

Firstly, I think its probably helpful to tease this out, even if I'm only a sounding board, that throws out ideas and suggestions.

You probably need to listen to the 35i, just to rule it out...it really is a stunning amp, that is quite different to anything else anywhere near its price range.

If you have a good deal on the Jadis, I think you should grab it...at that price, you really would have to prefer the MF to pay the extra, which is unlikely to be honest.

It is my hunch, that when you connect some valve friendly speakers, it will go up to another level again. Since you like the sound with your speakers, you won't be stuck if you end up doing it in two stages.
The fact that you found Jadis + LV in the one shop is a great bonus and bodes well for the standard of the dealer....should be knowledgeable.... :dance:

When it comes to listening, again don't worry about it....while you are trying to figure what to listen out for, your "Soul" will tell you all you need to know....trust it!

FWIW I believe your logic is right on track....you are now starting to understand how you want your music to sound, and then seeing where that takes you. If you think this dealer knows his stuff, allow him to guide you with his advice.

As always, I await the outcome with interest.

Cno

 

[acalex]

Firstly, I think its probably helpful to tease this out, even if I'm only a sounding board, that throws out ideas and suggestions. You probably need to listen to the 35i, just to rule it out...it really is a stunning amp, that is quite different to anything else anywhere near its price range. If you have a good deal on the Jadis, I think you should grab it...at that price, you really would have to prefer the MF to pay the extra, which is unlikely to be honest. It is my hunch, that when you connect some valve friendly speakers, it will go up to another level again. Since you like the sound with your speakers, you won't be stuck if you end up doing it in two stages. The fact that you found Jadis + LV in the one shop is a great bonus and bodes well for the standard of the dealer....should be knowledgeable.... :dance: When it comes to listening, again don't worry about it....while you are trying to figure what to listen out for, your "Soul" will tell you all you need to know....trust it! FWIW I believe your logic is right on track....you are now starting to understand how you want your music to sound, and then seeing where that takes you. If you think this dealer knows his stuff, allow him to guide you with his advice. As always, I await the outcome with interest. Cno

You have been VERY helpful, I can't thank you enough for this. Also because I felt you got my needs much more than any dealers I have been approaching so far (let me know if you want to open a shop around here 😀).

I definitely want to listen to the AMS35i. The shop called me today to tell that they can arrange a demo the day I want and they will make sure the amp is there. So I think this will be either Tuesday or Thursday.

In the meantime I will call this dealer with the LV speakers and see if we can book a demo with the Jadis and the LV. What I really like of this shop is that is available only on appointment, so for sure during the listening session there won't be anyone going in and out the shop. I found this very professional...and quite different from my demo yesterday where there was no proper listening room and the colleague behind picking up telephone calls and going back and for whilst I was listening...

You are right...it were my emotions that told me this is a beautiful sound. When it started playing for a moment I completely forgot any soundstage, dynamics, basses etc...I was just enjoying the music. I am "rushing" up a little bit as I might get this good bargain on the Jadis...

As you said...the MF needs really to slap me in the face to make me consider (at this stage) dropping the Jadis deal and get a MF. One nice thing is that probably MF will sound already very good with my speakers...

An interesting week ahead. Anyway I rebooked a second demo with the Jadis for next Friday so my gf could also listen to it...and also to buy some more time to think it through (dealer said he will block for this week the Jadis...and if I don't want it after the second demo, fair enough).

 

[CnoEvil]

I think it's a shame that the dealers haven't fully picked up on what you're after.

A good dealer should work by appointment, have a separate demo room where you can listen in a relaxed atmosphere (no pressure/judgement), preferably with a cup of coffee.

They should listen carefully to what you are after and ask pertinent questions about where you are going to set it up. They shouldn't be condescending or try unnecessarily to up your budget, but make helpful suggestions within it. They should know their products inside out and be able to answer most of the questions you throw at them.

The whole experience should be fun, relaxing and informative, where you leave having formed a good (trusting) relationship that can be called upon (if necessary) in the future.

 

[acalex]

I think it's a shame that the dealers haven't fully picked up on what you're after. A good dealer should work by appointment, have a separate demo room where you can listen in a relaxed atmosphere (no pressure/judgement), preferably with a cup of coffee. They should listen carefully to what you are after and ask pertinent questions about where you are going to set it up. They shouldn't be condescending or try unnecessarily to up your budget, but make helpful suggestions within it. They should know their products inside out and be able to answer most of the questions you throw at them. The whole experience should be fun, relaxing and informative, where you leave having formed a good (trusting) relationship that can be called upon (if necessary) in the future.

I know, that's really a shame! The only place where I felt at home and well understood was when I went listening to the Akurate DS. Unfortunately this guy has only Linn/Naim staff...it's great for source/streamer but does not have any high-end amplifier.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem clear to everybody how to invest on people for a future relationship. Because that's what hi-fi means in the end...if I know I can trust my dealer, I will be more inclined to listen to advices and spend even more money in the future...but here they seem more interested to the one-shot purchase more than developing a relationship.

That's why I think an Italian starting to do some serious business here would probably get rich only with aptitude and friendliness. Of course knowledge is also extremely important...maybe I still do not get enough "respect" as I still look young and probably they don't think I am really interesting in buying anything...

I also think i am a really easy "target" if you understand my curiosity and show the right aptitude by being friendly and willing to help without trying to sell...they could actually sell me anything with that 😀

Just got email from the dealer who has Jadis and LV speakers, he said I am more than welcome tomorrow to come and listen to the Jadis. He said also in the email he has the all collection of Sonus Faber and Audio Physics...it will be a nice day! 😉

 

[CnoEvil]

Just got email from the dealer who has Jadis and LV speakers, he said I am more than welcome tomorrow to come and listen to the Jadis. He said also in the email he has the all collection of Sonus Faber and Audio Physics...it will be a nice day! 😉

The hook is bated and ready to reel you in!

 

[acalex]

Well...the day was absolutely the best in terms of hi-fi!!! Had an unbelievable experience with this shop...arrived there at midday and left at 17.15 more ore less...music no-stop. Amazing...soon the details as I think I now where I want to go now...it feels so much better