Mains cables

[davedotco]

Layer of grunge. What is that, and what did it sound like?

I did try and explain this in my earlier post on this incident, but I shall try to elaborate.

At the time I was helping to market a rather nice amp and speaker combination, I was visiting dealers, reviewers and industry insiders and playing it to them a lot, I was getting a really good idea of what it sounded like and what it could do.

It was a fairly modest system that lacked a bit of scale and presence compared to bigger systems at similar cost but the shear musical ability that it could display impressed the hell out of a lot of people, myself included.

I took it to the Penta show that year, set it up in one of the regular rooms and was horrified with the sound I was getting, their was a slightly fuzzy, grainy quality that overlaid everything, making some known fine recordings sound a bit harsh and, frankly, a bit sh*t.

This was the layer of 'grunge' referred too above, it was clearly not a setup/placement issue and the equipment was all nicely warmed up so I spoke to an old friend who was working with Isotek and decided to try the equipment mentioned above.

The result was immediate and, to me, quite clear. The layer of grunge disappeared and the system was back to it's musical best, magic!

FWIW, After the show I did try the Isotek equipment on the system in other environments but results were marginal at best, realistically speaking there was no difference worth bothering with. I gave the Isotek stuff back.

 

[Covenanter]

Occam's razor.

Chris

that doesn't answer my question. My question wasn't "why is simplicity important?", to which Occam's Razor is a good answer. It was: by virtue of what is your explanation simpler than the alternative explanation?

Matt

If you are testing for a difference and don't find one the simplest explanation is that there isn't a difference. If you do find a difference then that needs to be explained.

Chris

 

[Electro]

There is a problem with blind testing that I read about on another forum . It is contained in the quote below and makes a lot of sense to me .

I must add these are not my words but a quote from an engineer who is a member of the Audio Engineering Society .

"Blind tests don't work for the simple reason that when you hear system A, your brain remembers details in the music so that you always hear them again even if system B doesn't reproduce it as well. This is a well-known psychological/psychoacoustic affect, at least well-known in the Audio Engineering Society. Those people who rant about ABX testing being the only way haven't got a clue."

Could this be one explanation as to why blind testing rarely seems to deliver any meaningful results that could not have been obtained by chance ?

There's an even simpler explanation for the non-meaningful results you talk about. Maybe there's no meaningful difference between the stuff being tested!

Chris

Chris, why do you think your explanation is simpler? Both explanations involve us positing some form of cognitive bias: whether it's the bias that predisposes people to hear the same thing twice or the bias that predisposes people to hear differences in sighted listening tests. Is one really simpler than the other?

:cheers:

Matt

Occam's razor.

Chris

"Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." Albert Einstein .

 

[stephennic]

There is a problem with blind testing that I read about on another forum . It is contained in the quote below and makes a lot of sense to me .

I must add these are not my words but a quote from an engineer who is a member of the Audio Engineering Society .

"Blind tests don't work for the simple reason that when you hear system A, your brain remembers details in the music so that you always hear them again even if system B doesn't reproduce it as well. This is a well-known psychological/psychoacoustic affect, at least well-known in the Audio Engineering Society. Those people who rant about ABX testing being the only way haven't got a clue."

Could this be one explanation as to why blind testing rarely seems to deliver any meaningful results that could not have been obtained by chance ?

There's an even simpler explanation for the non-meaningful results you talk about. Maybe there's no meaningful difference between the stuff being tested!

Chris

Chris, why do you think your explanation is simpler? Both explanations involve us positing some form of cognitive bias: whether it's the bias that predisposes people to hear the same thing twice or the bias that predisposes people to hear differences in sighted listening tests. Is one really simpler than the other?

:cheers:

Matt

Occam's razor.

Chris

"Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." Albert Einstein .

Hi Electro,

Long time no see, great quote. I think avreview website closed down.

Cheers

Steve.

 

[MakkaPakka]

I can understand the logic of how some sort of mains isolation/filtering could be of benefit - I know that people have had problems with things like fridge freezers causing mains noise. What I don't get is how one metre of expensive screened cable is going to make a difference if it's stuck on the end of 10 metres of cheap cable that doesn't have any screening.

I read the Russ Andrews booklet on mains cables and it said the most important consideration is to work backwards from the hi-fi but offered no explanation.

 

[BigH]

I have also read that these cables can suck the life out of amplifiers.

 

[relocated]

Expectation bias.

TrevC, I'd like to know what grounds you have for thinking that expectation bias is in play here. Do you have any psychological expertise?

There are many cognitive biases, and they're very complex. I speak as someone who has some academic knowledge of this field, built up over twenty years or so. I'd be hesitant to accuse anyone of a cognitive bias without good evidence and a full understanding of the subject.

In my experience, amateur psychologists are usually bad psychologists.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you pay a ridiculous sum of money for something as simple as a mains lead you expect it to be better or you wouldn't have bought it. It wasn't intended as an insult, it applies to everyone.

"Expect, Expect!" (to quote Marvin). As soon as someone expresses an opinion that can't be measured & therefore certified as being THE TRUTH. Someone comes along as says Expectation Bias without any explanation - cool! What name do you put to people's reaction when they expecting to hear a differnce but don't?

??? Science ???

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Electro,

Could you provide a link or a reference to that paper? Sounds interesting.

 

[Electro]

Hi Electro,

Long time no see, great quote. I think avreview website closed down.

Cheers

Steve.

Hi Stephennic ,

Yes it seems it has gone after long and painful death which is a shame .I would like to know what happened because there was never any explanation :?

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I'm running an Arcam AVR360, not a Krell!

Hi MadSquirrel

I use a standard mains lead with my Krell FPB600 power amplifier

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Rick

I bet your FPB600 has its own power station attached to that power cord

Cheers
Matt

Hi Matt

Tell me about it Anyway thankfully there is no loss in the FPB600's performance using a standard mains cable. I still get class A performance

from a hot running power amplifier :twisted:

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[stephennic]

Hi Electro,

Long time no see, great quote. I think avreview website closed down.

Cheers

Steve.

Hi Stephennic ,

Yes it seems it has gone after long and painful death which is a shame .I would like to know what happened because there was never any explanation :?

Yes, very disappointing - are you on head fi? How can you be contacted as there is no pm facility on what hifi.

Cheers

Steve

 

[TrevC]

I have also read that these cables can suck the life out of amplifiers.

Those darn aliens are everywhere, breeding in aftermarket mains carp.

 

[CnoEvil]

Mains wires can have no effect on sound quality. It isn't possible.

Since you have already made up your mind, this is probably of little interest, but Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research has found a way of objectively measuring differences between cables and differences in connectors, with his DTCD (Dynamc Transient Current Delivery) analyzer. http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm

They have also conducted comparative listening tests over several years under controlled conditions, using blind and double blind tests, that repeatedly confirm the connection between system performance and measurable DTCD. The results are to be published on their website.

 

[Electro]

Hi Electro,

Long time no see, great quote. I think avreview website closed down.

Cheers

Steve.

Hi Stephennic ,

Yes it seems it has gone after long and painful death which is a shame .I would like to know what happened because there was never any explanation :?

Yes, very disappointing - are you on head fi? How can you be contacted as there is no pm facility on what hifi.

Cheers

Steve

You can PM me on AVForums I'm Electro58 there .

 

[BenLaw]

Mains wires can have no effect on sound quality. It isn't possible.

Since you have already made up your mind, this is probably of little interest, but Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research has found a way of objectively measuring differences between cables and differences in connectors, with his DTCD (Dynamc Transient Current Delivery) analyzer. http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm

They have also conducted comparative listening tests over several years under controlled conditions, using blind and double blind tests, that repeatedly confirm the connection between system performance and measurable DTCD. The results are to be published on their website.

You've been telling us this for several years. Have they told anyone what has caused this inordinate and inexplicable delay?

 

[CnoEvil]

You've been telling us this for several years. Have they told anyone what has caused this inordinate and inexplicable delay?

Ah, there you are......I thought you'd given up, with far more important things to worry about.

For the record, it was once, one year ago, but I agree, it would still be nice to see the data: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/av-receivers/has-my-mains-cable-ruined-my-amp?page=1

 

[BenLaw]

Yes very busy. Not given up but this is one of the biggest faith-based arguments going. I've responded to it on more than one occasion before. Only a year ago tho, you're right. Time flies when you're having cable related fun.

 

[matt49]

Occam's razor.

Chris

that doesn't answer my question. My question wasn't "why is simplicity important?", to which Occam's Razor is a good answer. It was: by virtue of what is your explanation simpler than the alternative explanation?

Matt

If you are testing for a difference and don't find one the simplest explanation is that there isn't a difference. If you do find a difference then that needs to be explained.

Chris

That would apply if we had scientifically robust tests, but we don't. Some tests have been done; they were of poor design, and IMO have merely anecdotal status.

Matt

 

[TrevC]

Occam's razor.

Chris

that doesn't answer my question. My question wasn't "why is simplicity important?", to which Occam's Razor is a good answer. It was: by virtue of what is your explanation simpler than the alternative explanation?

Matt

If you are testing for a difference and don't find one the simplest explanation is that there isn't a difference. If you do find a difference then that needs to be explained.

Chris

That would apply if we had scientifically robust tests, but we don't. Some tests have been done; they were of poor design, and IMO have merely anecdotal status.

Matt

Scientific tests of what exactly?

 

[proffski]

I'm sure the Maplin lead is as effective as any other replacement mains lead.

Chris

I'll happily second that, but they do look pretty, so should help stop the other half from moaning so much about "wires".

Always one born every minute, kings new clothes etc!

 

[Covenanter]

Just to say that my Norton just popped up and said that the second link in the OP is a "Known fraudulent website". I'm not saying it is just that Norton says it is.

Chris

 

[TrevC]

Mains wires can have no effect on sound quality. It isn't possible.

Since you have already made up your mind, this is probably of little interest, but Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research has found a way of objectively measuring differences between cables and differences in connectors, with his DTCD (Dynamc Transient Current Delivery) analyzer. http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm

They have also conducted comparative listening tests over several years under controlled conditions, using blind and double blind tests, that repeatedly confirm the connection between system performance and measurable DTCD. The results are to be published on their website.

I'd love to know the motivation behind this website. Oh wait, they manufacture the stuff.. What a coincidence!

Weird how they don't mention that a humble 3KW kettle lead will perform just as well as the best of their measured examples.

Edit, I see it's from the US. No 3kW kettles, 1.6kW max.

Another of their "products" LOL.

http://www.shunyata.com/content/products-DarkField2.html

 

[steve_1979]

Just to say that my Norton just popped up and said that the second link in the OP is a "Known fraudulent website". I'm not saying it is just that Norton says it is.

Chris

:rofl:

 

[michael hoy]

Just to say that my Norton just popped up and said that the second link in the OP is a "Known fraudulent website". I'm not saying it is just that Norton says it is.

Chris

Mine must be more gullible does not report a thing.

Or it could be because I use a mains regenerator and it knows it is clean power.

 

[matt49]

Scientific tests of what exactly?

Of what was being discussed earlier in this thread.

Matt