Mains cables

[jase fox]

Tarquinh:
Cables make a difference because otherwise we'd all have expensive bricks. Do they make a difference to the sound? Some believe they do, some have enough knowledge in the field to believe they cannot, others just plug in their equipment and enjoy.

There are some things - gravity, the solar system, the theory of relativity, plus many other laws of physics and chemistry we all take for granted and few think of ÿ"trying before you buy". Other area s, such as religion, horoscopes, the ability of England to win the world cup require faith, and anything that requires faith by its very nature cannot be proven, because proof denies faith.

To me the whole cable issue falls into the first category: it's science, therefore can be proved or refuted, but I want to understand the underlying science. There's no faith involved.ÿHowever, if you insist others must try before expressing a contrary opinion on a subject which falls firmly within the realm sciences, then in fairness you have to give the scientific basis for your assertions.

Enough is enough. The bottom line is, as has been expressed elsewhere, it doesn't really matter. If you hear a difference, you hear a difference and there's no gainsaying that. If you can't be bothered with the whole cable thing, that's fine, too. In the end it's your life, and your HiFi.

Anyway, I'm out of here, it's stopped raining at last.ÿ
Could you put all that in leymans terms?

 

[Anonymous]

jase fox:Tarquinh:

Cables make a difference because otherwise we'd all have expensive bricks. Do they make a difference to the sound? Some believe they do, some have enough knowledge in the field to believe they cannot, others just plug in their equipment and enjoy.

There are some things - gravity, the solar system, the theory of relativity, plus many other laws of physics and chemistry we all take for granted and few think of "trying before you buy". Other area s, such as religion, horoscopes, the ability of England to win the world cup require faith, and anything that requires faith by its very nature cannot be proven, because proof denies faith.

To me the whole cable issue falls into the first category: it's science, therefore can be proved or refuted, but I want to understand the underlying science. There's no faith involved. However, if you insist others must try before expressing a contrary opinion on a subject which falls firmly within the realm sciences, then in fairness you have to give the scientific basis for your assertions.

Enough is enough. The bottom line is, as has been expressed elsewhere, it doesn't really matter. If you hear a difference, you hear a difference and there's no gainsaying that. If you can't be bothered with the whole cable thing, that's fine, too. In the end it's your life, and your HiFi.

Anyway, I'm out of here, it's stopped raining at last.

Could you put all that in leymans terms?

Tarquinh was basically talking about the difference between "objectivity" and "subjectivity". Science is "objective" and can be proved in general terms and applied generally. On the other hand, hearing differences (but not the same as improvement) in sound due to mains cable changes, different speaker cables/interconnects, mains conditioning, size of the rug in front of the hi fi, your hearing range, thickness of curtains in the room etc etc etc....... ad nauseum ..... is "subjective", ie what YOU hear in YOUR room with YOUR hi fi system but not necessarily what others will hear. And everyone is entitled to their opinions and they can express them whether they have experienced the items in question or not, as long as they do so in polite and non-confrontational terms.

 

[Anonymous]

gregory:The other day i swapped my kettle lead for my amp lead the difference was clear the amp seemed to steam along at a rate of knots i've never heard before, so hot, so bubbley and as for my kettle the boiling seemed to go lower it's as if it gained a deepness i've never heard before and the whistle to inform me the kettle had boiled was not shrill or hard but smooth and controlled, i'm a convert the amp lead stays on the kettle and the kettle lead on the amp. Now is that flippant or do you believe me.

Hey....why not. Forgetting the funnies then the way I see it with all the current flowing through the lead, that would make a pretty efficient burn in procedure assuming that the cable was capable of handling that amount of current in the first place.

 

[chebby]

Interestingly (to me) the Naim Power-Line mains cable upgrade concentrates on mechanical isolation of the components (mains plug, IEC plug, casings and contacts etc) and improved contact.

The cable itself is made of simple 4mmý copper (3 core twisted) with a rubber outer.

No evidence of any shielding or fancy LOFC copper or silver etc.

Ok it costs £395 so I will not be trying it soon.

My Nait 5i and CD5i both have mechanically isolated IEC mains input sockets ('wobbly') and Naim have introduced the 'floating' bayonet mount PCB in their Nait XS which further extends this mechanical isolation 'theme'.

Maybe in the future when/if I get to the dizzy heights of owning the Nait XS/CD5x level of gear I might try out the Power-Line and experiment with it on CD and amp. I won't be able to afford one for each!

In the mean-time, the mains leads provided as standard by Naim are good quality items with MK plugs fitted and I don't feel the need to experiment.

Knowing Naim's fastidiousness with this sort of thing they probably chose it after listening.

 

[idc]

Kevin Stephens:idc:

Hi Kevin, just saw your signature, nice kit list and ripe for modification. Musical Fidelity offer an after market mods service for virtually all of their products; http://www.musicalfidelity.com/tune/pricelist.html; though now I have seen the full price list it is quite expensive!

LOL, I've only had it a couple of weeks, still runing it in. The 3.5 is a recent model so MF don't offerr an upgrade

Next upgrade will be the 2009 Gramaphone CD guide, £20 ex demo

Yes, I have inadvertantly assumed that you are very, very rich (apologies if you are, well you know what I mean!). I have the X range which is by far the cheapest to upgrade, phew.

No matter how hard I try I cannot get the forum interested in modding as an upgrade. I promise that it works really well and you get clear sonic improvements for obvious 'scientific' reasons. The best benefit of all is, if you are happy with your existing kit and its sound and synergy, you get just get more of the same but better.

End of hijack and attempt to put a slighly different slant on the norm.

P.S - an upgarde I have been considering, but then cancelled is an upgraded PSU. Everything I have now has PSUs so my dreams of owninf another beautiful upgraded mains cable have gone....though there is the Sky box...no thats ridiculous.....

 

[jase fox]

AKL:jase fox:Tarquinh:

Cables make a difference because otherwise we'd all have expensive bricks. Do they make a difference to the sound? Some believe they do, some have enough knowledge in the field to believe they cannot, others just plug in their equipment and enjoy.

There are some things - gravity, the solar system, the theory of relativity, plus many other laws of physics and chemistry we all take for granted and few think of "trying before you buy". Other area s, such as religion, horoscopes, the ability of England to win the world cup require faith, and anything that requires faith by its very nature cannot be proven, because proof denies faith.

To me the whole cable issue falls into the first category: it's science, therefore can be proved or refuted, but I want to understand the underlying science. There's no faith involved. However, if you insist others must try before expressing a contrary opinion on a subject which falls firmly within the realm sciences, then in fairness you have to give the scientific basis for your assertions.

Enough is enough. The bottom line is, as has been expressed elsewhere, it doesn't really matter. If you hear a difference, you hear a difference and there's no gainsaying that. If you can't be bothered with the whole cable thing, that's fine, too. In the end it's your life, and your HiFi.

Anyway, I'm out of here, it's stopped raining at last.

Could you put all that in leymans terms?

Tarquinh was basically talking about the difference between "objectivity" and "subjectivity". Science is "objective" and can be proved in general terms and applied generally. On the other hand, hearing differences (but not the same as improvement) in sound due to mains cable changes, different speaker cables/interconnects, mains conditioning, size of the rug in front of the hi fi, your hearing range, thickness of curtains in the room etc etc etc....... ad nauseum ..... is "subjective", ie what YOU hear in YOUR room with YOUR hi fi system but not necessarily what others will hear. And everyone is entitled to their opinions and they can express them whether they have experienced the items in question or not, as long as they do so in polite and non-confrontational terms.
Ye ok fair enough, mind you trying to read such deep posts on a sunday with a beautiful hangover was probably a dumb thing to do.

The cables work for me & thats also good enough for me as i don't care about the science to be honest all i know is that i can hear a nice difference, i dont know how & i dont know why but i do.

Goodnight & god bless as im of back to bed !!

 

[Anonymous]

I am an agnostic on the power cables thing. I've never tried a mains conditioning cable so I have no idea whether or not they work. What I do know is that I never, ever trust personal testimony alone. So could someone please tell me precisely how a passive cable 'conditions' (or 'cleans' or 'modifies') the current such that it makes a significant, measurable, repeatable difference to the sound coming from audio components?

(Any insight on how a passive HDMI cable can modify a digital signal such that blacks are deeper, colours more lifelike, motion is smoother and so on would also be gratefully received.)

TIA,
H.

 

[Anonymous]

Halloway:So could someone please tell me precisely how a passive cable 'conditions' (or 'cleans' or 'modifies') the current such that it makes a significant, measurable, repeatable difference to the sound coming from audio components?

Generally speaking, proprietory mains cables passively "shield" the current path from interference (airborne radio frequency/electro-magnetic) by the way the metal core is constructed and the materials used in the shealth. Whereas some powered mains conditioners actively "filters and cleans" the mains current before it gets to the individual components. See for example Isotek's website for technical information.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks - that makes perfect sense to a non-techy like me. Would it be fair to say that (a) a passive cable can never actually improve the current, just stop it from getting worse (b) the same passive cable is most useful when used in conjunction with an active device?

However, I can't escape the fact that a passive cable cannot do anything about EMF which is introduced into the mains before the plug outlet into which it is plugged. As such then any improvemens are going to be marginal at best.

 

[JoelSim]

Objectivity. Subjectivity. It doesn't matter what it is, but there were ample gains when I bought the Nordost. So much so that I then went and bought £300s worth of Clearer Audio Silverlines for my amps (2nd hand - actually over £500 at RRP).

Now, given that I don't think I'm stupid, I have a degree and 3 A-levels, one of which is Physics...

And given that I'm not prone to throwing money away...ÿ

And given that I'm really pleased that this trio of leads has made such a 3 dimensional and more refined improvement...

ÿ

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

JoelSim:
Objectivity. Subjectivity. It doesn't matter what it is, but there were ample gains when I bought the Nordost. So much so that I then went and bought £300s worth of Clearer Audio Silverlines for my amps (2nd hand - actually over £500 at RRP).

Now, given that I don't think I'm stupid, I have a degree and 3 A-levels, one of which is Physics...

And given that I'm not prone to throwing money away...

And given that I'm really pleased that this trio of leads has made such a 3 dimensional and more refined improvement...

Fortuitously for the foo sellers In the audiophool world the more you spend the better a placebo effect seems to work, and as there is no science at all behind aftermarket mains leads that's precisely all you have.

I tried some expensive homeopathic hay fever pills that I was given and interestingly they seemed to work until i found out they had no active ingredients. The human mind is strange.

 

[Anonymous]

Halloway:Thanks - that makes perfect sense to a non-techy like me. Would it be fair to say that (a) a passive cable can never actually improve the current, just stop it from getting worse (b) the same passive cable is most useful when used in conjunction with an active device?

That is the theory but practical mileage varies from systems/ears to systems/ears! They work for me but only made marginal improvements, not the "night & day" or "significant" difference other posters experience, that is often because if someone has "clean" mains to start off with, then mains cables/conditioners won't make a blind bit of difference.

 

[kusum65]

Its been said before but if anyone is on the fence about mains improvements try before you buy. I tried a merlin black widow mains block with cables and was astonished with the difference and thought it money well spent. Having obtained such a great result i purchsed a Russ Andrews mains purifier and heard no difference at all so sent it straight back.

In fairness it could be completely subject to your system and mains condition

 

[aliEnRIK]

jase fox:

Has anybodyelse noticed that they dont make much differences to tv's or am i alone?

Really depends on the tv. Pioneers tend to thrive on decent mains cables (Like mine and my dads). Results seem to take a week or 2 to appear though (Like the tv is acclimatising to the new signal)

I believe some (like samsungs) have more inbuilt ways of protecting itself from EMI etc

 

[method man]

aliEnRIK:
jase fox:

Has anybodyelse noticed that they dont make much differences to tv's or am i alone?

Really depends on the tv. Pioneers tend to thrive on decent mains cables (Like mine and my dads). Results seem to take a week or 2 to appear though (Like the tv is acclimatising to the new signal)

wow. if thats not an example of how human beings can talk themselves into anything. I can't think of a better one. LOL

 

[Anonymous]

Kevin Stephens:given the choice between spending £100 on mains cables or 6-7 new CDs I know which I would choose

My, those are expensive CDS! I would expect 12 for that....

 

[Anonymous]

Graham_Thomas:Kevin Stephens:given the choice between spending £100 on mains cables or 6-7 new CDs I know which I would choose My, those are expensive CDS! I would expect 12 for that....

Ah, but they are not just any CDs, they are Marks & Spencer's CDs ......

 

[aliEnRIK]

method man:aliEnRIK:
jase fox:

Has anybodyelse noticed that they dont make much differences to tv's or am i alone?

Really depends on the tv. Pioneers tend to thrive on decent mains cables (Like mine and my dads). Results seem to take a week or 2 to appear though (Like the tv is acclimatising to the new signal)

wow. if thats not an example of how human beings can talk themselves into anything. I can't think of a better one. LOL

hohoho

get a life..............

Whilst your attempting to sort yourself a life out perhaps you could explain to me why the settings MEASUREABLY changed when fitting the mains cables? (ie ~ I have a sensor that measures the output at various ranges and the mains leads MEASUREABLY differed after time)

I know more about calibrating tvs than you do do about hifi

 

[chebby]

Thank goodness you put the 'winky' emoticon in there.

Made it all friendly again.

 

[aliEnRIK]

chebby:
Thank goodness you put the 'winky' emoticon in there.

Made it all friendly again.

The day people play nice is the day I be nice back

 

[method man]

flinging the old 'get a life' is a bit lazy. and generally done by those that worry that they themslves dont have one. need i point out the irony of a man mucking about with leads and arguing about it on a forum.....'get a lifing' somone with an opposing view. heaven forbid.

You may now say you linked up all sorts of meters and know way more than me. im sure you do sunshine. you and your Dad. I havent got time for all that old malarkey. But thats not waht you said earlier. You just said it took a couple of week to be noticed.LOl

when you discuss this with your dad, do his eyes roll upwards at all?

poor old sod

 

[aliEnRIK]

method man:
flinging the old 'get a life' is a bit lazy. and generally done by those that worry that they themslves dont have one. need i point out the irony of a man mucking about with leads and arguing about it on a forum.....'get a lifing' somone with an opposing view. heaven forbid.

You may now say you linked up all sorts of meters and know way more than me. im sure you do sunshine. you and your Dad. I havent got time for all that old malarkey. But thats not waht you said earlier. You just said it took a couple of week to be noticed.LOl

when you discuss this with your dad, do his eyes roll upwards at all?

poor old sod

I'll reask in case you try to drift off topic

How do you explain the difference in MEASUREMENTS once the cables had been on a week?

As for my father ~ I showed him the measurements as theyre stored on my laptop (Not that its ANY of your business)

 

[method man]

it must be a laugh a minute round at yours. I dont have to explain anything do I? Ive only got your word for

it that you measured anything at all. You might be 12 years old for all I know. I will leave it here thanks.

 

[aliEnRIK]

method man:
it must be a laugh a minute round at yours. I dont have to explain anything do I? Ive only got your word for

it that you measured anything at all. You might be 12 years old for all I know. I will leave it here thanks.

I thought you might

Come back when you understand tv calibration a little more to help REALLY put a smile on my face

(by the way ~ thats AGEIST. I could be 12 but whats that got to do with me being capable of knowing anything about hifi and tv calibration? or indeed computers and many MANY other things which are probably way over your head)

 

[Anonymous]

Isn't there a separate "Accessories" forum for all this kind of stuff?

Or do WHF need to flag it up a bit more clearly by renaming it as the "Let's be rude to each other" forum?

Frankly, I'm sick of it.