Loudspeaker design and modern living.

[chebby]

...someone at the top of this thread was seemingly jeering out of Lindsayt's advise in another thread to move houses to a bigger one. well, I think it's brilliant idea. if your living room is some 3m*3m box you can't really do much about it. maybe except buying some decent set of cans.

It's ridiculous advice.

The kind of house Lindsayt was talking about (Victorian/Edwardian, semi-detached or detached, 3 or 4 bed) starts at around £275,000 here (for a ropey one) and goes up to around £600,000+ for a nice Victorian 4 bed detached. We are 75 miles (or 1.5 hours by train) from London and this is not a particularly 'trendy' area either.

How many young couples/young families (the kind who buy those small 'new-builds') do you honestly think can afford £275,000 - £600,000 mortgages?*

*Or substantially more depending on the area. I'm only quoting from here 'in the sticks'.

 

[Electro]

To put it simply ,very few speaker manufactures bother to try and design a transmission line speaker because it is far more expensive , time consuming and technically difficult to get it right , but I am very glad that PMC have and I am sure you are too 🙂

LOL! far more expensive? a few planks of MDF are supposed to raise the cost of a speaker in some considerable manner? most manufacturers don't bother with TLs because it's not worth it. simple port works just fine, if not better. (sorry, I know this is a little bit off topic but couldn't help myself...)

here's measurements of PMC DB1i

http://www.stereophile.com/content/pmc-db1iii-loudspeaker-measurements

note the ATL's output on the graph.

and here's the same set of measurements for Dynaudio Focus 140. (I choose Dynaudio deliberately because I used Focus 110 for a year and never heard any reflex related noise. of course, badly implemented port will sound bad but it's not the fault of the principle but the manufacturer)

http://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-focus-140-loudspeaker-measurements

and here's another affordable, small monitor. Epos M5i

http://www.stereophile.com/content/epos-m5i-loudspeaker-measurements

hint; compare output into mid frequencies from PMC's ATL and then Dyns's and Epos's port. I really can't see how ATL is superior to simple port. and not only me. here's what J. Atkinson wrote on the bottom of PMC's measurements (in case you didn't reach so far): "However, as with other transmission-line designs we have reviewed, it remains unclear to me what sonic benefit is gained by the increase in system complexity".

and now a few words on topic. someone at the top of this thread was seemingly jeering out of Lindsayt's advise in another thread to move houses to a bigger one. well, I think it's brilliant idea. if your living room is some 3m*3m box you can't really do much about it. maybe except buying some decent set of cans.

and I think you harm yourself buying such small houses in the first place. if there's still demand developers will keep building them. I live in Ireland now, which according to the graph from the link about houses' sizes does not differ much from the UK and on the beginning I was shocked how small an average house was. I thought it was really hard for a family to fit in. and I didn't even take hi-fi into account. at that time I wasn't into hi-fi yet so didn't even bother about squeezing in the speakers. right now I'm renting quite a nice apartment which is just big enough for my needs. but if I were to buy anything it would definitely be something with bigger living-room. and definitely with a higher quality finish. those standard cardboard divider walls are simply hilarious. my take on the subject is; you buy a house for a life so it'd be better if it's something you feel comfortable in, isn't it?

I know this is a little lazy of me but in my defence I don't have enough technical knowledge to fully answer your question so I will let PMC do it .

http://www.pmc-speakers.com/technology/atl

John Atkinson has a well documented prejudice against all transmission line speakers 😉

 

[professorhat]

someone at the top of this thread was seemingly jeering out of Lindsayt's advise in another thread to move houses to a bigger one. well, I think it's brilliant idea.

Absolutely. And why don't hungry people just eat cake? Simples innit.

 

[MattSPL]

The perfect solution for every modern living room http://www.whathifi.com/news/tivoli-audio-supersizes-its-pal-xl-radio

 

[Excitable Boy]

someone at the top of this thread was seemingly jeering out of Lindsayt's advise in another thread to move houses to a bigger one. well, I think it's brilliant idea.

Absolutely. And why don't hungry people just eat cake? Simples innit.

:rofl:

 

[matthewpiano]

...someone at the top of this thread was seemingly jeering out of Lindsayt's advise in another thread to move houses to a bigger one. well, I think it's brilliant idea. if your living room is some 3m*3m box you can't really do much about it. maybe except buying some decent set of cans.

It's ridiculous advice.

The kind of house Lindsayt was talking about (Victorian/Edwardian, semi-detached or detached, 3 or 4 bed) starts at around £275,000 here (for a ropey one) and goes up to around £600,000+ for a nice Victorian 4 bed detached. We are 75 miles (or 1.5 hours by train) from London and this is not a particularly 'trendy' area either.

How many young couples/young families (the kind who buy those small 'new-builds') do you honestly think can afford £275,000 - £600,000 mortgages?*

*Or substantially more depending on the area. I'm only quoting from here 'in the sticks'.

Completely agree Chebby. Most of us are struggling to get on the housing ladder at all, never mind taking on mortgages of that enormity.

 

[Anonymous]

Are you defining a modern UK home as being a new build home, as I'm surprised no speaker companies offer a magnolia veneer and grille, which would disappear into the decor of 90% of these homes. Obviously after you have taken the placement of windows, radiators and door openings into account.

 

[Electro]

Are you defining a modern UK home as being a new build home, as I'm surprised no speaker companies offer a magnolia veneer and grille, which would disappear into the decor of 90% of these homes. Obviously after you have taken the placement of windows, radiators and door openings into account.

There is a company already as I said in post number 1 🙂 , in fact you can have any colour you like or a print of any pictures you fancy .

They can be on wall or in wall with all cables hidden and they are proper HiFi speaker with equal performance to equivalent conventional speakers .

http://www.whathifi.com/review/pmc-wafer-2

and ,

http://www.pmc-speakers.com/products/consumer/wafer

 

[CJSF]

A specific point made by an earlier contributor.

Just because you have a small room for you hifi, dont mean you have to have a small sound. I have been working on this as part of my hifi system, built over the past 12 months. My constant tweaking and adjusting is well documented, however, it has paid off. I have a big sound, at moderate, neighbour considerate volume, in a 12ftx12ft room. A modestly priced system, stand mounted speakers. Dependant on recording quality, but get the elements right and I have the Albert Hall at my disposal . . . almost? The cherry on the cake, turn off the lights and hear a full 3 dimensional, spine tingling musical performance.

House size is not a limiting factor . . . although the size of one’s vision might be . . . it takes time and patience to get the elements right . . .

CJSF

 

[BenLaw]

Are you defining a modern UK home as being a new build home, as I'm surprised no speaker companies offer a magnolia veneer and grille, which would disappear into the decor of 90% of these homes. Obviously after you have taken the placement of windows, radiators and door openings into account.

There is a company already as I said in post number 1 🙂 , in fact you can have any colour you like or a print of any pictures you fancy .

They can be on wall or in wall with all cables hidden and they are proper HiFi speaker with equal performance to equivalent conventional speakers .

http://www.whathifi.com/review/pmc-wafer-2

and ,

http://www.pmc-speakers.com/products/consumer/wafer

Dont forget the monitor audio soundframe: http://www.whathifi.com/review/monitor-audio-soundframe-1

Indeed, WHF did a group test of such speakers a few months back. ATC also do flat panel versions of their 7s and 11s.

 

[Electro]

A specific point made by an earlier contributor.

Just because you have a small room for you hifi, dont mean you have to have a small sound. I have been working on this as part of my hifi system, built over the past 12 months. My constant tweaking and adjusting is well documented, however, it has paid off. I have a big sound, at moderate, neighbour considerate volume, in a 12ftx12ft room. A modestly priced system, stand mounted speakers. Dependant on recording quality, but get the elements right and I have the Albert Hall at my disposal . . . almost? The cherry on the cake, turn off the lights and hear a full 3 dimensional, spine tingling musical performance.

House size is not a limiting factor . . . although the size of one’s vision might be . . . it takes time and patience to get the elements right . . .

CJSF

Well said and very true

 

[alchemist 1]

House size is not the governing factor. ITS wife size acceptance of how far you are allowed over that domestic white line. :shifty:

 

[chebby]

House size is not the governing factor. ITS wife size acceptance of how far you are allowed over that domestic white line. :shifty:

In which case I'd either be saving up for the biggest 'shed' I could afford (or a divorce).

 

[CJSF]

Another thing this thread raises in my mind . . . the buying of a 'big house' simply adds to the 'bragging right' that it seems to me, some hifi(?) enthusiasts enjoy indulging in. So, not only can they boast about the biggest amp, the biggest speakers, highest stream rates, the largest TV screen, but now they have the biggest room to put it all in . . . and still they want more, the most expensive cables and it all goes so loud!!!

. . . the old cynic that I am ? . . . CJSF :type:

 

[busb]

Where is Lindsayt?

If I recall correctly, his answer to another - similar - post was to recommend buying a large, detached, Victorian house.

So, he does give some good advice from time to time then! >)

 

[busb]

Duplicated

 

[lindsayt]

...someone at the top of this thread was seemingly jeering out of Lindsayt's advise in another thread to move houses to a bigger one. well, I think it's brilliant idea. if your living room is some 3m*3m box you can't really do much about it. maybe except buying some decent set of cans.

It's ridiculous advice.

The kind of house Lindsayt was talking about (Victorian/Edwardian, semi-detached or detached, 3 or 4 bed) starts at around £275,000 here (for a ropey one) and goes up to around £600,000+ for a nice Victorian 4 bed detached. We are 75 miles (or 1.5 hours by train) from London and this is not a particularly 'trendy' area either.

How many young couples/young families (the kind who buy those small 'new-builds') do you honestly think can afford £275,000 - £600,000 mortgages?*

*Or substantially more depending on the area. I'm only quoting from here 'in the sticks'.

Anyone who can afford to buy a new / modern 3 or 4 bedroomed detached can also afford to buy a "yuck" 6 to 10 bedroomed house with solid walls and large listening rooms in the same town / part of the country. Would you like to be very nosey and know how much I paid for my 10 bedroomed mansion? And how that compared to prices of nearly new 4 bedroomed houses in my town at that time?

For sure there are plenty of people in the UK who can't afford modern 3 bedroomed detached houses. For these people we can move the goalposts: Anyone who can afford to buy a new / modern 1 bedroomed apartment can also afford to buy a dead granny's 3 bedroomed semi-detached.

And then there are the people with bad credit histories who don't have the financial means or discipline to save up a substantial deposit who are pretty much condemned to renting for the rest of their lives. Sadly there's not much anyone can do to help them buy any sort of property.

The biggest problem is between most buyer's ears. They want a red ribbon house. A house that's like a present in a box with a pretty red ribbon wrapped around it. A house that's presented to them by an estate agent with high WAF that's all ready to move in and have nothing done to it for years to come. For people who are more flexible about condition, you can buy a far bigger and ultimately better house for the same initial investment. And then spend time and money doing it up as funds become available with the benefit that every pound spent should increase the value of the house by two pounds.

You Chebby might think that my house buying advice is ridiculous. I think it's entirely sensible and logical. To treat any house purchase as a business investment and not as a consumer goods purchase. And I bet that with some time and effort I could come up with better property deals in Chebby's town than the ones he's mentioned.

 

[MattSPL]

Just buy some big, ugly, great sounding speakers. If your other half really loves you, he/she might complain, but she'll give in eventually

 

[CJSF]

Lindsayt . . . you dont live in the real world and sound like David Cameron? You probably have a well paid job, plus all the trappings that go with it? A lot of people dont . . . Once you have that 10 room mansion, the cost of running it is horrendous, especially these days. Been there, done that, the cost of heating and electric alone for my renovated, 8 room detached bungalow + 2 bathrooms, garage with pit, 3 large sheds, quarter acre of garden, was unbelievable that was 12 years ago. I was not into hifi then, the three living rooms were large, my favourite was 17ft x21ft.

Looking back, there would be no way I would have been able to run that property on today’s figures, or afford the hifi to fill the room?

We down sized, sold at the right time, and bought a replacement right as well.

Houses are about living . . . not about hifi . . . IMHO

CJSF

 

[BenLaw]

big, ugly, great sounding speakers.

I would never describe the PA-65s as ugly

 

[professorhat]

Houses are about living . . . not about hifi . . . IMHO

You know, crazy as it may sound, I think that philosophy might just catch on...

 

[matthewpiano]

Lindsayt . . . you dont live in the real world and sound like David Cameron? You probably have a well paid job, plus all the trappings that go with it? A lot of people dont . . . Once you have that 10 room mansion, the cost of running it is horrendous, especially these days. Been there, done that, the cost of heating and electric alone for my renovated, 8 room detached bungalow + 2 bathrooms, garage with pit, 3 large sheds, quarter acre of garden, was unbelievable that was 12 years ago. I was not into hifi then, the three living rooms were large, my favourite was 17ft x21ft.

Looking back, there would be no way I would have been able to run that property on today’s figures, or afford the hifi to fill the room?

We down sized, sold at the right time, and bought a replacement right as well.

Houses are about living . . . not about hifi . . . IMHO

CJSF

I agree wholeheartedly CJSF. It is all very well saying you can buy some dilapidated mansion but many of the jobs that these houses need doing are expensive and for most normal, hard working people there just isn't that much free money left at the end of the month once the mortgage, bills etc. have been paid.

 

[plastic penguin]

Lindsayt . . . you dont live in the real world and sound like David Cameron? You probably have a well paid job, plus all the trappings that go with it? A lot of people dont . . . Once you have that 10 room mansion, the cost of running it is horrendous, especially these days. Been there, done that, the cost of heating and electric alone for my renovated, 8 room detached bungalow + 2 bathrooms, garage with pit, 3 large sheds, quarter acre of garden, was unbelievable that was 12 years ago. I was not into hifi then, the three living rooms were large, my favourite was 17ft x21ft.

Looking back, there would be no way I would have been able to run that property on today’s figures, or afford the hifi to fill the room?

We down sized, sold at the right time, and bought a replacement right as well.

Houses are about living . . . not about hifi . . . IMHO

CJSF

I agree wholeheartedly CJSF. It is all very well saying you can buy some dilapidated mansion but many of the jobs that these houses need doing are expensive and for most normal, hard working people there just isn't that much free money left at the end of the month once the mortgage, bills etc. have been paid.

Yup - buy the hi-fi to fit the house and not the other way round.

 

[MattSPL]

big, ugly, great sounding speakers.

I would never describe the PA-65s as ugly

:rofl:

 

[lindsayt]

Lindsayt . . . you dont live in the real world and sound like David Cameron? You probably have a well paid job, plus all the trappings that go with it? A lot of people dont . . . Once you have that 10 room mansion, the cost of running it is horrendous, especially these days...

My job pays me an average income for the UK. Hardly what I would could a well paid job.

I get this is a lot. When people see my house they assume I'm rich.

As for horrendous running costs? So horrendous that someone on an average income can't manage it? Pfff.

A few questions for you:

How old is your car? What make and model of car is it?

Do you smoke?

What holidays have you gone on in the last 12 months?

How much have you spent on clothes for yourself and family in the last 12 months?

How often do you go out to pubs / cinemas / football matches / other sporting activities / betting shops etc?

Pff, I don't live in the real world? Does that mean your definition of the real world is somewhere where people on average incomes don't exist? Somewhere where you are not allowed to treat the house that you buy and live in as a business investment? Somewhere where you are only allowed to buy houses that are new, nearly new or have been done up by professional builders. Somewhere where the size of house you are allowed to buy, is pegged to the level of your income? If that is the real world then you can stuff your real world. I will choose to live in my world. And I would advise everyone else reading this to live in their own worlds too.