Loudness, preamps, speaker choice...

[stavvy]

Should I hate myself for liking using the 'loudness' button on my amp?

I feel kinda wrong using it, but for certain types of music I find myself enjoying the music much more with it turned on. I know people will say, if you like it then that's all that matters, but what actually concerns me is that I was thinking of purchasing the newly released Pioneer U-05 usb-dac, as I think it would integrate into my system nicely. However, if I do this, and use the integrated amp as a power amp only, I lose the ability to use the 'loudness' function on the amp.

I know the 'loudness' button compensates for the lowered perceived lower and higher frequencies at lower volumes. But in having a pre-amp in my system, will this be rectified without the need for the loudness button at all? Or would upgrading my speakers from B&W 685s to a 3-way floorstander boost the bass response again elimating the need for the 'loudness' function?

Interested in your opinions!

 

[nopiano]

I guess it would help to know what you hope the DAC will do for you. Having taken a quick look at the spec it would function as a preamp just fine. But for someone who, er, is non-purist enough to like artificially boosted bass, I can't really see how it will appeal to you.

If you need speakers that work better at low volumes then floorstanders might suit you.

 

[stavvy]

i was just thinking really how to solve the 'loudness' issue. i.e. what is it that's missing by having the 'loudness' button turned off and whether it can be rectified by using a pre-amp and allowing the integrated amp to function as a stand alone power amp or if using floorstanders, as you have said, will have a better effect.

 

[Vladimir]

You can turn off the loudness on your amp, but you can't turn it of on speakers with loudness effect frequency response. Better have it in the electronics than buy bad speakers.

 

[stavvy]

ah yes good point. if i was upgrading though i would be looking at the B&W cm8. can get them for a really decent price now the new series are out.

 

[MrReaper182]

I never feel the need on my stereo amp to turn the loudness on, not even when listening at really low volume. All the loudness button on my stereo amp does is add more bass at the expense of detail in the music I am listening to. I all ready have more than enough bass coming out of my stereo amp without turning it on. Plus I like hearing every detail in the album I am listening to and like I said it turning it on gives less detail in the music.

 

[GCE]

I don't think that with floorstanders like cm 8 you will

turn off loudness button... *nea*

maybe with the 683 and a more powerfull amp to drive them!

 

[stavvy]

Ah now i can appreciate what you say about detail, i like to hear that too. And when listening to classical music it definitely sounds better with loudness off, in fact imo my set up sounds great. This is what i mean by not liking the fact i like to have the loudness turned on lol! I guess im just wondering if by having standmounters i'm missing out in some way

 

[stavvy]

do you think the amp is underpowered? i just bought it recently and it was the most powerful amp pioneer currently make (and more powerful than some Arcam amps I was looking at). I know B&Ws are power hungry, but more power is currently outwith my budget!

 

[Vladimir]

I think the true diagnosis here is called "upgraditis". *dirol*

​I vote B&W CM8 since your 90W Pioneer will manage to drive them I reckon.

Enjoy the brilliant FST midrange driver.

 

[stavvy]

thanks mate, i think when the time comes i will definitely audition the cm8s. I know about upgraditis all too well *sad*

 

[MeanandGreen]

I think perhaps instead of looking at floorstanders, perhaps consider adding a sub.

You can tune the sub to your system/room/tastes. Also you can switch it off if/when you require like you do now with the loudness button.

I'm surprised Pioneer still include a loudness feature on a midrange stereo amp. I haven't owned an amp with this feature for many, many years now.

 

[stavvy]

I was surprised myself that you can still get a loudness button on such amps but there you go. I did think of adding a sub, but how would I connect it to the stereo amp?

 

[MeanandGreen]

I was surprised myself that you can still get a loudness button on such amps but there you go. I did think of adding a sub, but how would I connect it to the stereo amp?

You could connect a sub via one of the sets of speaker terminals, if the amp doesn't have a dedicated sub output.

 

[Vladimir]

For stereo amps only active subwoofers are recommended and only if the amp has a subwoofer out from the preamp section.

BTW amps that don't have a loudness button (usually) have loudness (Fletcher-Munson) curve embedded in the volume attenuation. It has most loudness at zero volume position and as you turn it up it reduces it and somewhere at 9 or 10 o'clock position it should be gone. Amps that don't have this might sound really dull and weak at low listening levels.

By doing this the manufacturer has taken control away from the loudness junkee and implemented it in a healthy manner, as nature intended. *mosking*

 

[MeanandGreen]

For stereo amps only active subwoofers are recommended and only if the amp has a subwoofer out from the preamp section.

BTW amps that don't have a loudness button (usually) have loudness (Fletcher-Munson) curve embedded in the volume attenuation. It has most loudness at zero volume position and as you turn it up it reduces it and somewhere at 9 or 10 o'clock position it should be gone. Amps that don't have this might sound really dull and weak at low listening levels.

By doing this the manufacturer has taken control away from the loudness junkee and implemented it in a healthy manner, as nature intended. *mosking*

I'm not aware of volume controls having this curve embedded. Volume pots are logarithmic yes, but they can't have a preset Fletcher - Munsen curve as this would be wildly inaccurate due to the varing input levels from source material and components.

Also bear in mind a loudness button boosts bass (100 hz) and treble (10khz) by a pre set level, It's either on or off. Hence crude because as the volume pot increases the loudness function over boosts the frequency extremes. It would have the same effect as turning the tone controls up. This is not a Fletcher - Munsen curve as the attenuation is only at 100hz and 10khz.

A loudness dial as found on Yamaha amps, would be a much more usable option over a loudness switch as the user can vary the amount of bass and treble boost to suit the volume dail/input signal.

Incidently the last amp I had with a loudness switch was a Pioneer A-110 and I never felt the need to use it, it was a very crude all or nothing switch. The tone controls would be a much more accurate way of tweaking, however I've never felt the need to adjust tone according to the volume dial on any amp, loudness switch present or not.

 

[Vladimir]

I've expressed myself wrong. Loudness compensation embedded in the preamp, not the actual volume pot.

Cheers

 

[Native_bon]

I've expressed myself wrong. Loudness compensation embedded in the preamp, not the actual volume pot.

Cheers

Well from your link in your signature, it just goes to prove what I have said in the pass. The act of HIFI is a religion.

 

[stavvy]

ah im learning a lot here. i wish the loudness function was builit in and variable with volume as that would allow the integration of the preamp without losing the function.

i too am a little uneasy hooking a sub up to the second set of speaker terminals on the amp since it has no dedicated sub out. I think just bigger speakers would be the way to go.

 

[Vladimir]

I've expressed myself wrong. Loudness compensation embedded in the preamp, not the actual volume pot.

Cheers

Well from your link in your signature, it just goes to prove what I have said in the pass. The act of HIFI is a religion.

Oh well... still fun though.

 

[robbo400]

I am certainly no expert or audiophile - I just enjoy my music (to my ears). But I am surprised at the negativity surrounding features like loudness buttons and tone controls. Surely, room acoustics, quality of recording etc would mean that you can improve sound quality in a given environment with these adjustments?

While I find that speakers seem to have most impact on overall sound, I must say that I absolutely love the sound and features of my old Sansui 8080 Receiver. In addition to Loudness, Tone (B/T/Mid-Range) Controls and a High Filter, it also has 3 speaker outputs. I feed 3 separate rooms, including the kitchen, where you'll appreciate I drop Treble and increase Bass to counter the bright room characteristics.

I can imagine many will cringe at this and my hi-fi buff friends certainly do. They have tried to convince me to drop my amp in favour of others on the market and have been kind enough to lend me various models, generally in the £2k to £5k range. Well I miss the sound, controls and functionality of my old Sansui and, in fairness, many of them have admitted their prejudices and in A to B comparisons conceded that differences are nowhere near as big as they would have thought. So, I really had no interest in "up-grading" when I could hear no sound improvement.

Then I heard a McIntosh pre/power valve set-up and it blew everything I'd ever heard away. Here there was an almighty difference (again to my ears). Everything I ever wanted. I was poised to buy after listening for one evening. Then I saw the combined price (over £12k heavily discounted) which at the moment is out of my range. But I will buy it, in time. Never heard anything like it. And it had tone controls (not sure about loudness, don't think so). To me this proved that tone controls does not equal bad. I understand that Luxman, Accuphase and other respected manufacturers also keep these features on their amps.

I've heard all the arguments about purity of signal. So why use banana plugs instead of a straight wire to terminal connection for speakers - surely that's another break? I don't want to start an argument and I have no doubt that my ears are not of audiophile quality but there are, to my mind, some great practical advantages of tone and loudness (which I also use when listening at low volume) features. If it means that I can get a slightly different sound to the way the recording engineer mixed the master track and I prefer it that way, then I think the adjustments are a good thing as they help me enjoy music more. However, I fully understand that many want the sound as it was meant to be heard regardless of whether it can be changed to better suit their likes. Each to their own, I guess!

 

[CnoEvil]

Then I heard a McIntosh pre/power valve set-up and it blew everything I'd ever heard away. Here there was an almighty difference (again to my ears). Everything I ever wanted. I was poised to buy after listening for one evening. Then I saw the combined price (over £12k heavily discounted) which at the moment is out of my range. But I will buy it, in time. Never heard anything like it. And it had tone controls (not sure about loudness, don't think so). To me this proved that tone controls does not equal bad. I understand that Luxman, Accuphase and other respected manufacturers also keep these features on their amps.

IME. If you get the right combination of Amp/Speakers (with a decent Source), then tone controls aren't anything like as necessary.

To get a good taste of what you heard with the McIntosh, as well as Luxman and Accuphase, look at brands like Sugden, Pathos, Electrcompaniet, Icon Audio and Unison Research (even if there are no tone controls)....and combine them with speakers like Harbeth, Spendor Classic Series and Kef R Series.

 

[Vladimir]

The simple answer is tone controls and circuitry on a £500 NAD and a £10k Accuphase are not the same. Better to have no tone controls on a budget amp at all and have the money and attention by electronic engineers spent on essentials. Tone controls are addons, not essential at all. They were invented at the time when there was no RIAA standard for records and each record publisher mastered differently so you needed tone control to get some kind of ability to adjust the sound. Today they are really a crude equalizer to compensate for someones hearing deficiency, room acoustics or preferences.

 

[stavvy]

thanks all for your inputs. I probably will in the end purchase the pioneer preamp (if i can find it anywhere in the UK) and upgrade my speakers anyway (but will stick with B&W) within the next year. by that point I should be happy for a few years at least until I get a job that will hopefully allow me to start sniffing about the diamond range speakers....

 

[MeanandGreen]

The simple answer is tone controls and circuitry on a £500 NAD and a £10k Accuphase are not the same. Better to have no tone controls on a budget amp at all and have the money and attention by electronic engineers spent on essentials. Tone controls are addons, not essential at all. They were invented at the time when there was no RIAA standard for records and each record publisher mastered differently so you needed tone control to get some kind of ability to adjust the sound. Today they are really a crude equalizer to compensate for someones hearing deficiency, room acoustics or preferences.

If I didn't have tone controls on my £350 NAD a lot of today's music would be unlistenable. I find quite a few recordings heavy in the bass department and a slight reduction on the bass dial to around 11 o'clock sorts it out.

I listen to a very wide selection of music from many decades and mostly I have 'tone defeat' active. However I couldn't be without the option to just engage the tone control circuit every now and then to compensate for the 20 odd or so tracks that are bass dominant.

I would never consider an amp that doesn't offer tone adjustment. Yes my room is set up right, no I'm not deaf, I like a balanced sound. However all recordings are not equal and the thought of putting up with major production deficiencies because it's 'audiophile' to do so just sounds daft to me.

Also today we have more choices of input source than ever before with even more variations of quality. It's not a perfect world.