That loudness button.

[AJM1981]

Not to confuse with the 'loudness war' as in heavily compression of music in the mastering process.

The 'loudness button' has a different origin as it is based on the Fletcher Munson curves and serves as a natural slope in EQ on lower volume in how our ears perceive sound. In similar fashion we don't hear a perfect 'flat response' as flat and adjustments make that we perceive something as flat.

The button was not a gimmick as some opinions might state but a decent feature. In dedicated listening room situation where the music is at constant level and reasonably loud as so that tiny details can be heard loudness doesn't add anything. For living room situations this is a different thing.

However it seems that some manufacturers seem to have other approaches to it so the intepretation signatures might have varied. Going to more recent times this button became obsolete as DSP serves a similar function.

Now it brings something confusing which I cannot really place and that is the following.

I own a Denon amp from the early 90's with that button as my second amp for another room being lower prioriry. The main priority is the setup in my living room for which I use a Harman Kardon amp from around the year 2000. Now I wonder if this Harman Kardon amp has or doesn't have something similar to the loudness button built in since it doesn't have DSP.

Or maybe it doesn't have any of both? which is a little weird for its time.

It is often tempting to try the Denon with my Wharfedale evo 4.2's since the loudness function made my old B&W sound reasonably better. Though I never missed anything in the Wharfedales. But who knows..it is also a lot of replugging so I parked it for a while.

Any thoughts on this matter?

 

[Deleted member 116933]

So what you asking? should you use the loudness button?

 

[Gray]

Any thoughts on this matter?

I've had amps with, without and even one with a variable loudness function. But just as with tone controls, I've never used loudness.
The mystery of whether your HK has it, should be easy enough for you to solve though.
Couldn't remember if my old HK amp had it not - had to check this to find that it did. This is my old HK.....in the group test they found it delivered the most current, 39 amps.....sounded like it too:

Harman Kardon PM650

The sweet spot in a three-strong series of late '80s amps, this high current integrated promised to handle low impedance speakers without breaking a sweat. We listen... Most hi-fi enthusiasts know how many watts their amplifier can produce, but does that figure tell the whole story? In the early...

www.hifinews.com

 

[AJM1981]

I've had amps with, without and even one with a variable loudness function. But just as with tone controls, I've never used loudness.
The mystery of whether your HK has it, should be easy enough for you to solve though.
Couldn't remember if my old HK amp had it not - had to check this to find that it did. This is my old HK.....in the group test they found it delivered the most current, 39 amps.....sounded like it too:

Harman Kardon PM650

The sweet spot in a three-strong series of late '80s amps, this high current integrated promised to handle low impedance speakers without breaking a sweat. We listen... Most hi-fi enthusiasts know how many watts their amplifier can produce, but does that figure tell the whole story? In the early...

www.hifinews.com

Great vintage amp!

I have the HK3270 RDS. There is no button, there is no DSP and in the manual I can't find anything about something similar integrated. It just might go without.

 

[Gray]

Great vintage amp!

I have the HK3270 RDS. There is no button, there is no DSP and in the manual I can't find anything about something similar integrated. It just might go without.

No, if there's no loudness button, it hasn't got the function.
I get the impression you may have thought the circuitry might have been there just needing the button. But no, as with tone control - if the knobs aren't there.....the fewer components they can fit, the better (cheaper) for them - and ultimately, the customer too.

 

[RoA]

Loudness facility is great for low volume listening or to make an otherwise anemic sounding amplifier appear beefier.

If it sounds good to you it's good.

 

[Friesiansam]

or to make an otherwise anemic sounding amplifier appear beefier.

If an amp is that bad, you've bought the wrong one.

I bought a Technics amp back in the 80s, with a loudness button, never used it.

 

[Gray]

If an amp is that bad, you've bought the wrong one.

I bought a Technics amp back in the 80s, with a loudness button, never used it.

People can generally be divided into those who like to 'boost' and others who never would.
My music is always played at levels loud enough not to require loudness.
(Don't do quiet, or background listening ever).

 

[RoA]

I used to be in the 'direct is correct' camp. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem with that is that amplifiers with a good tonal balance usually cost more. You just don't get that in cheaper products imho.

When I owned Cyrus I sometimes wished I had tone controls but sticked with it as it sounded good with the right (read sympathetic) material.

With the Hegels I had no problem. They sounded fine with just about everything.

When I owned a Denon Amplifier many years ago I was glad for the loudness button.

As for now, with everything done in the digital domain I very much appreciate both DSP and tone controls.

The Purist approach is fine but not everyone wants to hear warts and all nor can everyone listen at high volumes.

Apart from the usual entry level Japanese fare look at Luxman, Accuphase, McIntosh to name just three. Mid to High End Manufacturers. Many of their models include tone controls. There is a reason for it.

Many DAC's now have switchable filters ... in essence subtle tone controls.

This way at least you have the option.

If it sounds good to you ... it is good. - Imho and limited knowledge ... don't get too hung up on Audiophile talk and ideals and you (probably) will enjoy your music more.

 

[Gray]

.....look at Luxman, Accuphase, McIntosh to name just three. Mid to High End Manufacturers. Many of their models include tone controls. There is a reason for it.

Indeed there is a reason for it. They know they'd sell fewer amps without them. People want them and that's fine. But anyone who thinks tone controls are harmless additions, need to ask themselves why tone defeat switches exist.
Ironically of course, the fact that the signal has to go through the switch, means that, even when set to direct.....it can (and does) cause the the sort of compromise it's there to eliminate!
So, if you're one of those who know you're never going to use tone controls, you should look for an amp without them - as opposed to one with defeatable controls.

 

[manicm]

It’s pretty much essential for budget kit like the Denon Ceol N10, though in my case it could be down to two things; the tiny speakers are far from the back wall, the tiny speakers are just crap for bass. In any case my mum uses it, and I’ve placed them forward on an open tv cabinet because she’s a bit hard of hearing.

 

[Wil]

The 'loudness button' is based on the Fletcher Munson…

This substantial piece may well satisfy you:

Request Rejected

And others will prefer this from McGowan:
"We perceive bass and treble frequencies to be at lower loudness when the overall volume level is low. That perception does not agree with our measurement devices and so we created a crutch to compensate for the ear/brain’s failings.

That crutch is called a Loudness Control, a variable bass and treble boost dependent on where the main volume control position is. The higher the volume control, the lower the bass and treble boost until the loudness circuit is removed from the signal path altogether.

You don’t see loudness controls on high-end audio equipment much for two reasons: its benefits have to be weighed against the impurity of additional phase shifting circuitry, and most high-performance systems aren’t used at background listening levels so it’s not needed."

 

[manicm]

This substantial piece may well satisfy you:

Request Rejected

And other will prefer this from McGowan:
"We perceive bass and treble frequencies to be at lower loudness when the overall volume level is low. That perception does not agree with our measurement devices and so we created a crutch to compensate for the ear/brain’s failings.

That crutch is called a Loudness Control, a variable bass and treble boost dependent on where the main volume control position is. The higher the volume control, the lower the bass and treble boost until the loudness circuit is removed from the signal path altogether.

You don’t see loudness controls on high-end audio equipment much for two reasons: its benefits have to be weighed against the impurity of additional phase shifting circuitry, and most high-performance systems aren’t used at background listening levels so it’s not needed."

That ‘perception‘ could be real and not imaginary as he says. After all he has to promote his products.

What I forgot to mention in my last comment here, is that for my mum I actually have to turn that loudness function off - as she has greater difficulty in hearing higher frequencies than bass.

And that’s also where Class A amplifiers have a real advantage - at lower volumes they’re generally far superior to more conventional designs.

 

[Wil]

Have you looked at the "substantial" Extron Somers piece?

That ‘perception‘ could be real and not imaginary as he says. After all he has to promote his products.

Reason why I've Unsubscribed from PM's YouTube Channel.

Should we read his book?

10 of the best books about hi-fi and audio

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