Question Denon PMA600NE Dilemma

[David F]

Hello, having seemingly exhausting Denon's Customer Care ideas, I'm hoping some What HIFi members may be able to provide assistance. Thank you.

Hello David, You recently raised a question with our customer care team. Below is a summary and our response. Reference Number: 240205-000347 Subject: Denon PMA-600NE Response By E-mail (Dan) (20/02/2024 16:35) Dear David, If your turntable has an ON and OFF button, then try leaving it connected to the PHONO port and turning the turntable OFF and seeing if you still get the same issue. If you do, then unfortunately because you are not getting the same issue when connecting any of your other input sources it seems the turntable is causing a confliction which is preventing the PMA-600NE from activating the Auto Standby feature. best regards technical support Customer By Service Email (David Fieldsend) (20/02/2024 16:27) Hello, I have previously tried your suggestion as I stated in my previous email. All other individual connections operate the Auto Standby mode correctly except for Phono which does not. Response By E-mail (Dan) (20/02/2024 13:11) Dear David, Thank you for getting back to us. It sounds like to me that one of your input sources might be causing a confliction with the PMA-600NE and preventing the Auto standby function from working. I would suggest that you try again with just the mains connected and one source input and then test one source input at a time to see when the Auto Standby function stops working. best regards technical support Customer By Service Email (David Fieldsend) (20/02/2024 13:01) Hello, thank you for your reply of 09/02/23. I carried out the initialization procedure as suggested without it resolving the issue. I contacted the dealer who agreed to swap the unit and on receiving the replacement amplifier from Peter Tyson HiFi (and what superb customer service they provide), it was connected to mains only with no other connections used. The Input Selector was set to Phono and Auto Standby worked as per the Manual. After making the connections as detailed below, the following positions of the Input Selector did operate correctly in putting the amplifier into Auto Standby Mode: Bluetooth – paired to Iphone and Ipad. Coaxial – not connected. Optical 2 – connected to BlueRay player. Optical 1 – connected to Sky Q satellite receiver. CD – connected to Denon DCD-600NE. Network – not connected. Aux – not connected. Recorder – not connected. Identical symptoms to the original amplifier: Phono – connected to Turntable. Still does not initiate Auto Standby whether turntable is connected to or disconnected from the amplifier. This Phono input position accounts for the majority of my amplifier use. To double check, I once again connected the amplifier to mains only with no other connections being made and Auto Standby mode worked! In my old age (no laughing ok!) am I missing something obvious here? I would be interested as to what all the Denon experts are able to determine from this situation. Thank you one again for your assistance. Regards, David Fieldsend. Response By E-mail (Dan) (09/02/2024 10:27) Dear David, Thank you for your email. Please try the below initialization that is not in the user manual: If none of the above works then at this stage we would ask that you refer your unit to the retailer of whom you purchased the product from under the warranty terms and conditions. If outside warranty you can find contact details below for authorised service agents in the UK:- Sound System Technology Unit 7 Bentinck Court Bentinck Road West Drayton Middlesex UB7 7RQ Tel: 01895 422244 www.sstonline.co.uk Sontec Electronics Ltd Sontec House Concorde Road Norwich Norfolk NR6 6BE Tel: 01603 483675 www.sontec.co.uk Please be aware that these service agents are fully independent, however are fully trained and qualified in the servicing of our products. In addition to this they have direct access to our official spare parts and components. We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused you. best regards technical support Auto-Response By (Administrator) (05/02/2024 10:31) These Answers were automatically selected for your consideration. If your issue is addressed in our public Answers, the solution link should be listed below. If no solutions are listed or the solutions do not match your issue, there were no public Answers matching your issue. The following answers might help you immediately. (Answers open in a separate window.) Answer Link: LATEST HEOS APP AND FIRMWARE UPDATE AVAILABLE Answer Link: AUTO LOW LATENCY MODE Answer Link: GOOGLE ASSISTANT - INSTALLATION AND CONFIGURATION Answer Link: ALPHA PROCESSING AND WHAT TYPES ARE THERE Answer Link: AIRPLAY 2 CONTROL USING SIRI Customer By Service Web (David Fieldsend) (05/02/2024 10:31) Hello, I very recently purchased a Denon PMA-600NE Integrated Amplifier and was really happy with it. Unfortunately I now have a problem in that the Auto Standby mode setting has stopped functioning. I have tried resetting it numerous times in accordance with the instructions in the manual, have disconnected the inputs, switched the amplifier off and left it overnight but nothing seems to get the Auto Standby mode to operate after approximately 30 minutes as it should. Please advise and thank you for your assistance.

 

[nopiano]

Welcome, David! How frustrating for you.

What turntable make and model is it, please? And what do Tyson’s say?

 

[David F]

The turntable is a Dual CS429.
Peter Tyson’s have been excellent. After having the same issue with the original amplifier and giving them Denon‘s earlier response, they swapped amplifiers via DPD within 48 hours, really first rate service from them.

 

[Al ears]

Both your turntable and the amp have a phono stage built in. You don't need both so wonder if the turntables preamp is causing the issue.

 

[hifi]

Long shot David but have you tried updating the sofware within the settings ?

 

[nopiano]

The turntable is a Dual CS429.
Peter Tyson’s have been excellent. After having the same issue with the original amplifier and giving them Denon‘s earlier response, they swapped amplifiers via DPD within 48 hours, really first rate service from them.

Yes, I understood that they’d swiftly swapped amps, but have they no input on the actual fault/issue?

Does the Dual’s sound meet your expectations, with no hum or distortion? Al may have a point about the phono preamp. Are you using the turntable one, or the amplifier’s? Presumably the latter, based on your description, so might be worth reversing it - set the Dual’s amplifier to line, and plug it into the Aux input.

 

[David F]

Turntable with power on or off - no difference.
I’ve thought about using the Line/Aux option but wanted to try and resolve this first.

 

[hifi]

Turntable with power on or off - no difference.
I’ve thought about using the Line/Aux option but wanted to try and resolve this first.

Do you another source you can try in the phono ? or borrow 1 just a thought !

 

[Gray]

.... whether turntable is connected to or disconnected from the amplifier. This Phono input position accounts for the majority of my amplifier use. To double check, I once again connected the amplifier to mains only with no other connections being made and Auto Standby mode worked!

I think the above might be the relevant part David.

I suspect that inherent noise from the amp's internal phono preamp is defeating auto-standby.
That would, of course, mean that the original amp had an identical issue.
But your double-check suggests that any such noise may be borderline - mostly holding the amp on - but, sometimes, dropping enough to trigger auto-standby.

You could try shorting the open phono RCA sockets on the amp (a pair of tweezers clamped between centre hole and socket outer - on both sockets - would do it).....this would kill (at least some of) the noise.
If, when selected to phono input, the amp then consistently goes into auto-standby, it would prove my theory.

That may not immediately help you.....but it would be useful knowledge (not least for Denon).

 

[nopiano]

I think the above might be the relevant part David.

I suspect that inherent noise from the amp's internal phono preamp is defeating auto-standby.
That would, of course, mean that the original amp had an identical issue.
But your double-check suggests that any such noise may be borderline - mostly holding the amp on - but, sometimes, dropping enough to trigger auto-standby.

You could try shorting the open phono RCA sockets on the amp (a pair of tweezers clamped between centre hole and socket outer - on both sockets - would do it).....this would kill (at least some of) the noise.
If, when selected to phono input, the amp then consistently goes into auto-standby, it would prove my theory.

That may not immediately help you.....but it would be useful knowledge (not least for Denon).

Good ideas! Do you know what the sensor actually is, because if it’s say a little chip, maybe the spec has drifted or a new batch of components means it is now too sensitive? Just wonderin’!

 

[Gray]

Good ideas! Do you know what the sensor actually is, because if it’s say a little chip, maybe the spec has drifted or a new batch of components means it is now too sensitive? Just wonderin’!

No I don't know but wherever it is, I don't suppose there's much circuitry monitoring the signal 🤔.

Would be interesting to know whether David finds phono noise any worse than from other phono amps.

May indeed be just an issue on later batches - otherwise we might have expected others to have reported problems by now.
(Although, it's probably one of those things that not everyone would even notice).

 

[My2Cents]

I've read your post 3 times and I think I know what your question/problem is, but it's somewhat unclear. I'm guessing that the amp doesn't go into Auto Standby when the turntable is plugged in?

Here's the deal: Auto Standby is a feature that ONLY exists to meet current EU/UK electronics equipment power consumption requirements.
My amp does something similar (but the opposite)... if Auto Standby is set to ON and I am streaming via Bluetooth, it actually goes INTO Standby after 30 minutes (even though music is playing through it when it does).
Does this bother me? Not really. I fixed the problem by just turning Auto Standby OFF. If I need to put the amp into standby I just use the remote or the switch on the front panel.
It's all software controlled and so perhaps Denon needs to bring out an update.

BTW: Shorting out inputs / outputs in never a very good suggestion or idea so don't do it (unless you're an electronics technician and you know what you are doing).

 

[Gray]

BTW: Shorting out inputs / outputs in never a very good suggestion

Try telling that to the manufacturers that supply shorting plugs...for the purpose of shorting the phono inputs on their amplifiers 😉

Note that is all I suggested 👍
True, he should never short outputs.

Provided that he does the input shorting with the volume control at minimum, I'm sure you will agree that no harm can be done.

BTW when phono input is selected, his amp sometimes goes into standby, sometimes doesn't - whether or not the turntable is connected.
I also think it may be the case that, unlike you with yours, he actually wants his amp to reliably go into auto standby 👍

 

[My2Cents]

I read a lot of technical manuals as part of my job and, having read the post one more time, he does not explain the problem.
He mostly posts responses from Denon without us knowing exactly what the fault ishe was reporting.
(I'm assuming Denon were confused too).
The only mention of the problem is:
Identical symptoms to the original amplifier:
Phono – connected to Turntable. Still does not initiate Auto Standby whether turntable is connected to or disconnected from the amplifier.

 

[My2Cents]

Try telling that to the manufacturers that supply shorting plugs...for the purpose of shorting the phono inputs on their amplifiers 😉

Note that is all I suggested 👍
True, he should never short outputs.

Provided that he does the input shorting with the volume control at minimum, I'm sure you will agree that no harm can be done.

BTW when phono input is selected, his amp sometimes goes into standby, sometimes doesn't - whether or not the turntable is connected.
I also think it may be the case that, unlike you with yours, he actually wants his amp to reliably go into auto standby 👍

That's not what he stated:
Identical symptoms to the original amplifier
Phono – connected to Turntable. Still does not initiate Auto Standby whether turntable is connected to or disconnected from the amplifier.

 

[Al ears]

That's not what he stated:
Identical symptoms to the original amplifier
Phono – connected to Turntable. Still does not initiate Auto Standby whether turntable is connected to or disconnected from the amplifier.

That may be so but if the amplifier works as it should and auto standby kicks in as it should with everything else except turntable plugged in then there is obviously an issue with the phono stage of the amp and it's ability to influence auto standby.... And there shouldn't be.
Something is issuing what the amplifier sees as a signal preventing auto standby from kicking in.

 

[Al ears]

That may be so but if the amplifier works as it should and auto standby kicks in as it should with everything else except turntable plugged in then there is obviously an issue with the phono stage of the amp and it's ability to influence auto standby.... And there shouldn't be.
Something is issuing what the amplifier sees as a signal preventing auto standby from kicking in.

The only way to check this is to use the phono preamp in the turntable itself and connect the deck to the Aux input.

 

[Gray]

That's not what he stated:
Identical symptoms to the original amplifier
Phono – connected to Turntable. Still does not initiate Auto Standby whether turntable is connected to or disconnected from the amplifier.

Yes he did say the above
But if you read what he said just after that:
'To double check, I once again connected the amplifier to mains only with no other connections being made and Auto Standby mode worked!'

So, as I said, he has reported that, when selected to phono input, the amplifier sometimes goes into standby, sometimes doesn't - whether or not the turntable is connected.

There's clearly room for confusion here (including for Denon!)
But, as a qualified electronics service engineer, there's one thing I can say for sure:
Unless you fully understand the customers' fault description - you've got no chance of curing his problem.

 

[Gray]

The only way to check this is to use the phono preamp in the turntable itself and connect the deck to the Aux input.

But that would prove what we already know Al - that when line inputs get silence they always trigger auto standby.
His problem only occurs with the amp selected to phono input (with or without a connected TT).

 

[Gray]

Turntable with power on or off - no difference.
I’ve thought about using the Line/Aux option but wanted to try and resolve this first.

Too right you need to resolve this

If the amp's got an auto-standby function - and you want to use that function - then you must be able to - on any input you wish to use.

 

[Al ears]

But that would prove what we already know Al - that when line inputs get silence they always trigger auto standby.
His problem only occurs with the amp selected to phono input (with or without a connected TT).

I know but he will be going round in circles trying to determine if it is the turntable itself or the phono stage in the amplifier. There's no easy way of determining that.
Perhaps the only way is to switch the amp to a line input before you want it to go into auto standby, or better still save electricity and switch it off manually.

 

[David F]

Long shot David but have you tried updating the sofware within the settings

 

[David F]

Firstly may I say that I really appreciate all the advice and assistance I’m receiving and secondly, my apologies if my original post was possibly confusing.

This morning I connected the turntable to the amplifiers Aux input, moved the turntables switch from Phono to Line, selected Aux on the amp, started then stopped the turntable and after 30 minutes the Auto Standby functioned correctly.

I then put the amps Input selector to Phono with the connections still as above and once again the Auto Standby function worked.

Should I now try the same but with the supplied short circuiting plugs fitted to the amplifiers Phono terminals or is this really not necessary?

Looks like I’ll be leaving the turntable switched to Line and connected to Aux if I want to use the Auto Standby function!

 

[Al ears]

Not too sure now what trying shorting plugs will prove.

 

[David F]

Not too sure now what trying shorting plugs will prove.

Thanks and I agree with you.