KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[Vladimir]

And look what happened when I auditioned more than 5 speakers. If I had not, I would have always thought I made a mistake in choosing speakers.

You are confident these are the best speakers for you even though others have said they prefer different speakers and as a desk speaker/small monitor/nearfield monitor they lack the output to function as main speakers in a room at reference level. Are you able to identify the postive aspects that for you outweigh these negative aspects?

Shkumar is currious why Stereophile has chosen the LS50 as Class A over many more expensive and more full range speakers on the market, including the PMCs, B&Ws, Paradigms etc. They are in the same class as Sonus Faber Guarneri Evolution ($22,000), TAD Compact Reference CR1 ($42,000), Vienna Acoustics Klimt The Kiss ($15,000) and Vivid Audio B1 ($15,000).

I am currious what is the reason people preffer a small 4 inch woofer that is basically a midrange driver on steroids (began it's life as a dedicated midrange driver), over many 2-ways and 3-ways with properly developed midbass drivers or even full blown low bass woofers. It is interesting to know at what extent the marketing and groupthink hype is converting the LS50 design flaws and compromises into strengths and preferences.

 

[shkumar4963]

I followed your reference to Harbeth

www harbeth co uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2113-Amplifier-clipping-an-epidemic

And then reviewed many aligned threads where Alan explains fundamentals of hifi sound.

Do you know of a book or collection of articles that explain the concepts concisely and have an accompanied CD to perform the necessary tests?

Ps: BTW how do you add links without spam filter rejecting it?

 

[shkumar4963]

And look what happened when I auditioned more than 5 speakers. If I had not, I would have always thought I made a mistake in choosing speakers.

You are confident these are the best speakers for you even though others have said they prefer different speakers and as a desk speaker/small monitor/nearfield monitor they lack the output to function as main speakers in a room at reference level. Are you able to identify the postive aspects that for you outweigh these negative aspects?

 

I am not sure if I can answer your questions intelligently. But in my limited auditions, they sounded the best. And my dealer strongly recommended them over others. Stereophile and whathifi praising them above others did not hurt either. Also at that time I was not that knowledgeable about what makes a speaker better and how 4 inch woofer is different than 6 inch one. So I just went with what sounded cleaner.

 

[shkumar4963]

@BigH

You have standmount speakers as your main speakers.

Have you heard a major difference in audio quality due to stands, how speakers are mounted on them and how they are coupled to the floor below.

I am asking because I can not hear much difference.

Others who use standmounts as their main speakers with stands, please comment.

 

[shkumar4963]

For genuine comparisons to other speakers with a similar cabinet and driver size, the LS50s should be compared to the Sonus Faber Toy, B&W PM1, CM1 S2, and 686 S2, Q Acoustics Concept 20, ProAc D1, KEF R100 and Q100, PMC DB1 Gold, Monitor Audio Silver 1 and Gold GX50, and the ATC SCM7.

You are correct David. But price was another criterion in our comparison. The speakers must be priced around £800.

You will have a better knowledge. Are they all about the same price?

 

[dim_span]

For genuine comparisons to other speakers with a similar cabinet and driver size, the LS50s should be compared to the Sonus Faber Toy, B&W PM1, CM1 S2, and 686 S2, Q Acoustics Concept 20, ProAc D1, KEF R100 and Q100, PMC DB1 Gold, Monitor Audio Silver 1 and Gold GX50, and the ATC SCM7.

You are correct David. But price was another criterion in our comparison. The speakers must be priced around £800.

You will have a better knowledge. Are they all about the same price?

high price should not be used as a comparison .... some companies have high mark ups and high overheads

I have not heard these, but from what I have read, the Kralk audio BC-30 may be a much better choice for less that half the price (£349)

I have not heard the Kralk Audio either, but from what I have read (so far) from people who have, I may buy a pair of these

 

[Vladimir]

I followed your reference to Harbeth

www harbeth co uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2113-Amplifier-clipping-an-epidemic

And then reviewed many aligned threads where Alan explains fundamentals of hifi sound.

Do you know of a book or collection of articles that explain the concepts concisely and have an accompanied CD to perform the necessary tests?

Ps: BTW how do you add links without spam filter rejecting it?

I guess the best place to start from the begining would be the Master Handbook of Acoustics and The Audio Expert: Everything You Need to Know About Audio.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. (Alexander Pope)

Acoustics and acoustic engineering are sciences and empirical knowledge based, with scientific theory derived from physics, mathematics, neurology and psychology. There is no such thing as Hi-Fi in science. Hi-Fi is when you take Acoustics, replace actual science with easy to chew one paragraph pseudo-science drivel, obsessive-compulsive lifestyle shopping, brand and (high/low) price snobism, groupthink derived mythology and profit driven pseudo-journalism. You can say there is such a thing as 'high fidelity' in acoustics, but 'hi-fi' is a cultural meme and part of midleclass' shopping culture aka consumerism. This is why you see a hi-fi sticker on cheap LG, Qacoustics, B&W and KEF speakers. There is no objective standard to define 'hi-fi' except what marketing departments decide upon. Hi-Fi makes professionals sick to their stomach and snobishly laugh at audiophiles.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So is a lot. (Albert Einstein)

If you wish to learn acoustics and audio engineering casually, then you will have a much tougher job than just doing what we do on forums. However, mind you, the more you learn, more bitter and pi$$y you become with the other audiophiles that claim you can't have an opinion on things that you didn't buy first. You may also end up with a pair of fugly West German active studio midfield monitors from the 70's and bass traps in your beautiful home that a womans touch kept livable for all these years.

Not that you are unaware of this but, there it is. *biggrin*

P.S. I think WHF mods need to add you to a trusted group of posters for the spam filter to go away. *unknw*

 

[shkumar4963]

. *unknw*[/quote]

Thanks. This will be a good addition to my library. Is there a book plus cd that you know of that explains hiw to set up your audio system and identify common mistakes. The kind Alan was exploring in Harbeth forum.

 

[Vladimir]

I'm not aware of one that makes it easy to understand things like Alan does, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. He dumbs things down for pedestrians like me and his writing (even his occassional drama queen tone) is a pleasure to read.

 

[shkumar4963]

For genuine comparisons to other speakers with a similar cabinet and driver size, the LS50s should be compared to the Sonus Faber Toy, B&W PM1, CM1 S2, and 686 S2, Q Acoustics Concept 20, ProAc D1, KEF R100 and Q100, PMC DB1 Gold, Monitor Audio Silver 1 and Gold GX50, and the ATC SCM7.

You are correct David. But price was another criterion in our comparison. The speakers must be priced around £800.

You will have a better knowledge. Are they all about the same price?

high price should not be used as a comparison .... some companies have high mark ups and high overheads

I have not heard these, but from what I have read, the Kralk audio BC-30 may be a much better choice for less that half the price (£349)

I have not heard the Kralk Audio either, but from what I have read (so far) from people who have, I may buy a pair of these 

I did not mean £800 as min price but a max price so that we don't compare ls50 with 20k speakers.

 

[steve_1979]

@BigH

You have standmount speakers as your main speakers.

Have you heard a major difference in audio quality due to stands, how speakers are mounted on them and how they are coupled to the floor below.

I am asking because I can not hear much difference.

Others who use standmounts as their main speakers with stands, please comment.

Personally I find that different stands, filling and spikes etc make little difference to the sound. So long as the speakers are in the right position in the room and they aren't wobbly that's all you need.

 

[Frank Harvey]

You are correct David. But price was another criterion in our comparison. The speakers must be priced around £800.

You will have a better knowledge. Are they all about the same price?

Sonus Faber Toy £575

B&W PM1 £2000

CM1 S2 £650

686 S2 £350

Q Acoustics Concept 20 £350

ProAc D1 £1500

KEF R100 £600

Q100 £380

PMC DB1 Gold £900

Monitor Audio Silver 1 £550

Gold GX50 £900

ATC SCM7 £810

You won't see "reference" speakers at this sort of size, but you can see what any given manufacturer can achieve for this size based on budget.

 

[BigH]

@BigH

You have standmount speakers as your main speakers.

Have you heard a major difference in audio quality due to stands, how speakers are mounted on them and how they are coupled to the floor below.

I am asking because I can not hear much difference.

Others who use standmounts as their main speakers with stands, please comment.

Personally I find that different stands, filling and spikes etc make little difference to the sound. So long as the speakers are in the right position in the room and they aren't wobbly that's all you need.

Just seen this. Not had much experience with different stands, from my limited experience I do not think it makes that much difference but it depends on the speakers and what floor you have them on. My last house had suspended wooden floor, that did cause some issues with bass and vibration. On concrete now, don't have those issues anymore. Yes I agree correct height and secure is the main thing.

 

[Vladimir]

http://acoustics.org/booklist.html

 

[shkumar4963]

Ok. Then I don't feel that bad.

I am also finding acceptable performance, though I can hear the difference, when speakers are placed about 3 inches from back wall.

So I am thinking that I should be able to mount the speakers on the wall withoit much decrease in sound quality.

Not sure how they will look mounted.

ANY thing I am missing here?

 

[Vladimir]

I don't think it helps that so many people insist on putting the microphone right in their mouths when they are singing *biggrin*

 

[shkumar4963]

Probably to improve signal to noise ratio in a noisy environment.

 

[hg]

I am not sure if I can answer your questions intelligently. But in my limited auditions, they sounded the best. And my dealer strongly recommended them over others. Stereophile and whathifi praising them above others did not hurt either. Also at that time I was not that knowledgeable about what makes a speaker better and how 4 inch woofer is different than 6 inch one. So I just went with what sounded cleaner.

Thanks for the reply but I am not sure why you would think it was not intelligent.

When you compared the speakers did you sit down with a cup of coffee and switch between the different pairs of speakers to pick the one that sounded cleaner or did you listen to different pairs of speakers at different times and places?

When you looked at the LS50 did you feel before listening that it would be too small to play loudly enough? That is, without listening, what size drive units do you expect to see on a high fidelity speaker for use in the home.

How well aligned with your criteria for the best speaker do you think is the criteria for best speaker used by the writers at What Hi-Fi and Stereophile?

You are now considering placing the LS50 on a wall or at least near a wall given what is on the back. If you require on wall main speakers did you consider purchasing speakers designed for that purpose? Or did you consider it more important that the speaker was a good hi-fi speaker?

 

[shkumar4963]

When you compared the speakers did you sit down with a cup of coffee and switch between the different pairs of speakers to pick the one that sounded cleaner or did you listen to different pairs of speakers at different times and places?
LS50 and R300 were compared this way. At the first dealer's place I was sure that LS50 did not have a wide soundstage and I should buy R300. But they were in a tiny room with large glass wall on one side and were kept on a shelf against the wall. The dealer was however insisting that I should buy LS50 and not R300. So I left without buying anything. The next dealer had a better set up for LS50 and they were indeed magical. But there was no R300 to compare. The room was big but the volume level was sufficient for me. The next dealer only had CM1, CM5 and PMC 21 . I liked them but thoght that LS50 were more magical and overall better (based on my recollection). I spent a total of 3 sessions to decide LS50. I went back to the second dealer and bought LS50. He thought that if I want to get better sound quality, I should think about getting a bigger amp and a sub in that order. My last speakers were Allison CD7 by Roy Allison who used to be at AR Inc. Great FS but looking old. My wife wanted either in-walls or Satellites or standmounts in that order. No FS were considered. After some quick review of some websites and learning that LS50 were being praised by everyone, I and my both dealers were convinced about LS50. I learnt more about speakers, science behind them and what makes a speaker better than other (to the extend I know) after this pruchase. Placing on the wall is an after thought. and only if it will not reduce the sound quality that much.

 

[shkumar4963]

Having said all that, if I had to choose a set of standmount speakers again and I did not have any more time to audition than what I had then, I will probably choose LS50 again.

They are not bad speakers. There may be better speakers out there but that will require a lot more time to audition them in simlar settings. And that is why many rely on Stereophile and other publications. They don't help us in choosing the best speakers but can definitely help in avoiding bad ones.

 

[ID.]

He thought that if I want to get better sound quality, I should think about getting a bigger amp and a sub in that order.

There's certainly merit to that approach, especially if you like the sound signature of the LS50s. I've been running a pair of DB1i with a relatively cheap sealed sub and enjoying it. Nevertheless, I still thought some floorstanders would give better integration across the frequency spectrum, but when I tried out a number of floorstanders at a similar price point, I found the small speakers and sub gave me a sound that I thought sounded better. The mids, highs and imaging of the smaller speakers was superior, and the sub actually meant that my home setup had deaper bass that could be adjusted more flexibly to deal with the bass issues in my room.

Having heard the LS50 with amps of a similar price as well as pricier, more powerful amps, the LS50s do scale well and the extra grunt helps to deliver more convincing bass.

Personally I like to get my speakers at least 30cm away from the back wall because I feel it helps to create a more 3d soundstage, whereas placing speakers close to the back wall seems to squash it flat somehow.

 

[hg]

My last speakers were Allison CD7 by Roy Allison who used to be at AR Inc. Great FS but looking old. My wife wanted either in-walls or Satellites or standmounts in that order. No FS were considered. [...] Placing on the wall is an after thought. and only if it will not reduce the sound quality that much.

By standmount do you mean something like placing the speaker on a sideboard near a wall or do you mean placing on a stand pulled out a metre or two into the room? If the latter what difference do you and your wife see between a standmount and a floorstander since they would both seem to take up the same amount of space? I presume you are aware that the Allison is unusual in being designed to work flat against a wall and not pulled out in the room like almost every other speaker. It is not possible to get the LS50 flat against a wall because of the rear port and the binding posts. Are you considering using brackets or perhaps a shelf to place it near a wall?

 

[Vladimir]

The defficiencies and compromises are what makes small standmounts desirable. And what many experienced audiophiles want most of the time is change, something sounding different. Only newbs want VFM upgrades and real world improvements. I think this is why we get rid of our floorstanders and buy standmounts. We want change even if it isn't for the better or if it's one aspect improved and everything else worsened.

Oh the sleepless night browsing websites, forums, reviews, brochures.... I am satisfied with my system but I want more than 'just satisfied'. I want to be extatic, I need the high, the new dose. I need a change.

The problem with this is that standmounts often leave you lacking after the honeymoon is over. There is always something missing, so you start upgrading amps, cables, subs, stands, room treatment, even CDPs, TT belts... trying to close the gap of performance lost when you migrated from FS to SM. But you never will. Throwing money at the problem will never solve it fully becauser you created it intentionally in the first palce to feel change.

Of course there are those with rooms and tastes that perefectly match the performance of good standmounts and they will enjoy them for many years without restless sleep.

 

[hg]

The defficiencies and compromises are what makes small standmounts desirable.

I can see the attraction of smallness. Smallness makes sense if a speaker is placed on a bookshelf, desk, sideboard or similar. It makes a lot less sense if it is placed on a stand and pulled out into the room. In this case the higher performance of a floor standing speaker would seem to be available for no cost in terms of space.

Earlier people were suggesting that small speakers image better and produce less audible cabinet colouration. Is this a rationalisation or a genuinely held belief?

 

[shkumar4963]

There's certainly merit to that approach, especially if you like the sound signature of the LS50s. I've been running a pair of DB1i with a relatively cheap sealed sub and enjoying it.

Having heard the LS50 with amps of a similar price as well as pricier, more powerful amps, the LS50s do scale well and the extra grunt helps to deliver more convincing bass.

Personally I like to get my speakers at least 30cm away from the back wall because I feel it helps to create a more 3d soundstage, whereas placing speakers close to the back wall seems to squash it flat somehow.

Thanks. What is a cheap sub for you? What brand did you buy?

Also when you talk about "pricier more powerful amp" what price range are you talking about? What power?

Regarding close to the wall, that was just an after thought since I am not seeing that much sound quality deterioration by placing them closer to the wall (about 3 to 5 inch).