hg said:
I have used various Allison speakers over the years. Don't believe everything you read. It is part science part marketing.
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I have used various Allison speakers over the years. Don't believe everything you read. It is part science part marketing.
Vladimir said:
You are correct my friend...
I will also suggest that assuming that everyone will like speakers with full range may be a myth as well. For them Standmounts may be "better" than FS. And I think both amp and speaker manufacturers know that and make their product "tailor" the sound somewhat.
For eaxmple, I realize that some of my friends don't like very low frequencies. They feel that it makes the bass loose. Some don't like high frequencies of cymbals and find it too annoying.
It is natural... Not everyone enjoys cymbals while some do and not everyone likes lower frequencies of cello while others do. So there is nothing wrong in them "coloring" their system to get the sound that they like. After all the music producer was also a human who produced the music based on his liking. These listeners are just customizing that music to suit their taste. Makes sense?
shkumar4963 said:
The Allison speaker you cited will only function as intended when placed flat against a wall. It has nothing to do with written words but the simple physics of how sound radiates away from a speaker in close proximity to a surface and the presence/absence of baffle step correction in the crossover. The LS50 is of course the opposite. Where Allison is perhaps less supported by scientific knowledge is in seeking a very wide dispersion with his unusual midrange and tweeter drivers.
BOSE is so successful because they did their marketing reasearch quite well. They learned 3 things:
1) People prefer a rounded sound, without any extremes in the bass and high frequencies. No highs, no lows, its Bose, its what everyone likes. Keep it in the midrange, keep it loud and surround like with huge soundstage and lots of reflections.
2) The research also showed that price is the only language the consumer truly understands. You can tell the consumer your product is high quality by pricing it as one, without it being either high quality or claimed as such on specs (which are legaly binding to be accurate). The phenomenon is also known as Veblen goods. Only way for the consumer to learn that the product is not high quality as the price suggest is to compare it to another competing product.
3) Human echoic memory is limited to usually 4 seconds and if you manage the retailers not to demo your product alongside the competing ones, buyers will not be able to tell the difference based on aural memory. This defaults the consumer to use the only language he understands, price.
How is this relevant to hi-fi?
Compared to FS, SM are treated more as Veblen Goods, but not as much as amplifiers or god forbid cables. The audiophile expects quality from SM and quantity from FS if both have the similar price. However, the audiophile uses no engineering knowledge or acoustics to make this assumption, the price is his crystal ball, despite him thinking he used logic and cleverness.
Well, assumptions need to be tested. For the audiophile the only tool for determining quality (unlike quantity, which is easy to detect as SPL) is the arduous auditioning and comparing loudspeakers. However, considering his memory is limited to 4 seconds, he defaults back to price as only way of communicating with the market.
The most common language of determining performance of hi-fi components on this hi-fi (shopping) forum (like on many others) is discussing price and what someone auditioned months or years ago. Consumers who don't understand engineering and have no insight into how things work, they imminently default back to price and their auric memory (essentially just price).
Hi-Fi price/performance peaked when the hi-fi shops stopped using a switch to demo different components and the dealer began seting up gear for audition. From that year onwards Hi-Fi became Veblen Goods.
1) People prefer a rounded sound, without any extremes in the bass and high frequencies. No highs, no lows, its Bose, its what everyone likes. Keep it in the midrange, keep it loud and surround like with huge soundstage and lots of reflections.
2) The research also showed that price is the only language the consumer truly understands. You can tell the consumer your product is high quality by pricing it as one, without it being either high quality or claimed as such on specs (which are legaly binding to be accurate). The phenomenon is also known as Veblen goods. Only way for the consumer to learn that the product is not high quality as the price suggest is to compare it to another competing product.
3) Human echoic memory is limited to usually 4 seconds and if you manage the retailers not to demo your product alongside the competing ones, buyers will not be able to tell the difference based on aural memory. This defaults the consumer to use the only language he understands, price.
How is this relevant to hi-fi?
Compared to FS, SM are treated more as Veblen Goods, but not as much as amplifiers or god forbid cables. The audiophile expects quality from SM and quantity from FS if both have the similar price. However, the audiophile uses no engineering knowledge or acoustics to make this assumption, the price is his crystal ball, despite him thinking he used logic and cleverness.
Well, assumptions need to be tested. For the audiophile the only tool for determining quality (unlike quantity, which is easy to detect as SPL) is the arduous auditioning and comparing loudspeakers. However, considering his memory is limited to 4 seconds, he defaults back to price as only way of communicating with the market.
The most common language of determining performance of hi-fi components on this hi-fi (shopping) forum (like on many others) is discussing price and what someone auditioned months or years ago. Consumers who don't understand engineering and have no insight into how things work, they imminently default back to price and their auric memory (essentially just price).
Hi-Fi price/performance peaked when the hi-fi shops stopped using a switch to demo different components and the dealer began seting up gear for audition. From that year onwards Hi-Fi became Veblen Goods.
steve_1979
Well-known member
hg said:
Generally yes.
But there are many exceptions to this generalisation as there are a whole host of other factors that have an effect apart from just the enclosure size/shape.
steve_1979 said:
Advantage would be less cabinet diffraction surfaces, less cabinet vibration radiating surfaces, easier/cheaper bracing. To my understanding, manufacturers take out the mid and high frequency drivers from the cabinet and place it in separate smaller enclosures for these very reasons.
The KEF Blade shape negates the need for separate enclosure, just separate chambers in the same cabinet.
There's a lot of truth and wisdom in what Vladimir's saying in posts #1048 and #1054.
I would add that when comparing speakers there's usually a big enough difference between them that long term memory is good enough for retaining and indicating the differences between them.
I would add that when comparing speakers there's usually a big enough difference between them that long term memory is good enough for retaining and indicating the differences between them.
Vladimir said:
Wow again... Could not have said better myself.
But one more point. The consumer also uses logic or at least he wants to. If he has $2000 to spend and and FS and SM both cost the same, the SM must be better as it has less drivers and less cabinet and so less manufacturing cost. (And if the markets are efficient (i.e. if another manufacturers with the same quality could have priced them cheaper they would have to gain market share), then SM must have better drivers, better crossover and better cabinet. You see that this assumption is circular for if another manufacturer had a lower price, consumers would have seen that as of lower quality product.)
So the manufacturers can not reduce their prices so instead they need to use that extra profit to invest in marketing and hype. I am not saying that all do that but my logic says that they should.
Vlad.... What do you think about recent rise in Internet only speaker manufacturers like Axiom, SVS and others? How do they find their customers and price their products?
Audiophile dealer network is expensive. I think distributor and dealer margin combine exceeds 50% and that amount is saved for internet companies. I do see that internet companies tend to be more open with their specs than dealer dependent companies. Love to hear your comments.
hg said:
You are correct. The physics is correct but in an actual room the impact on sound quality may not be as much as they advertised.
lindsayt said:
The problem is that long-term auditory memory lasts only 10-20 seconds.
When we audition a pair of speakers with music, only lasting thing we can form are impressions such as loud, quiet, harsh, bright, distorted, clean, muffled, exciting, borring etc. Those are not part of the auditory memory, which has deteriorated after 20 seconds. Impressions are made from visual memory, auditory memory, brand recognition, various environmental factors, what music is playing, how comfortable we were sitting etc. The brain cannot tell itself to process one thing at a time.
When the audition is over, we compare our impressions, not our auditory memory. And guess what is firmly embedded as part of those impressions? Price. As the speakers are playing Brahms, our brain in paralel is playing Pink Floyd - Money air guitars. Are the looks worth it? Is the sound worth it? Is the brand worth it? Is that other speaker better for the added £400? There is no escaping this mechanism, it's evolution derrived.
Our ears simply detect frequency and amplitude. To us the same sound played only louder is heard as better. Adding noise raises the amplitude slightly and sounds louder, thus better. Adding distortion sounds richer, more textured. The ear is very easy to fool regarding detail but is a very sensitive instrument of amplitude (loudness). We can detect as low as 0.2dB differences between two sounds. Maybe the single biggest audio related impression left in the comparisons will be what sounded louder and at what frequency range.
shkumar4963 said:
I don't think B&M (brick and mortar) shops will soon dissapear altogether. Manufacturers need some of them alive. Why? DaveDotCo has mentioned several times how people go in hi-fi shops, audition gear and then go and buy it online for cheaper (internet direct sales has less overhead).
NIKE sells over 80% of its shoes online. The large and impressive stores like the one on Times Square NYC are 3D billboards, which the manufacturer keeps in business at a loss. They don't make enough even to pay the rent but they are kept active for advertising and to give people the comfy feel nothing has changed, just things are more convenient.
The KEF Blade is a statement product. KEF profits from the LS50 more than the Blade and I bet they get a huge loss at every Blade sold.
shkumar4963 said:
Unfortunately I don't think it is available outside Japan.
http://www.fostex.jp/products/cw200a/
It's a sealed sub designed for music playback. Quite subtle. Not really too good for home cinema LFE, but just helps smaller speakers sound bigger. I got it because I listen to a lot of electronic music with sub-bass that the DB1is just don't give.
More expensive amps? Both my DB1i and the LS50s were beefier on the end of a Luxman L-505u (about 50% more expensive than the speakers here in Japan) and really thrived on the end of a Luxman L507u (more than double the price of the speakers here), as well as some of the higher end Accuphase integrated amps, but in terms of what those amps are capable of driving, I'd be looking at matching them with much more expensive speakers than the LS50s, altough a 2nd hand Luxman L-505u or 2nd hand L-505uX would be a good match in terms of price point.
@Vlad
When I talked about internet speaker manufacturers like SVS, I meant Internet ONLY manufacturers with no dealer outlets. And it seems that they are growing rapidly. I was wondering why you think they are growing in absence of any ability to audition before hand. But as you rightly pointed out, with a short auditory memory, coupled with dealers reluntance to do A/B testing and limited variety of speakers available at each dealer, ,ay be auditioning is not that important. Add to that the fact that speaker technology is maturing, it is conceivable that consumer will be willing to buy a speaker without auditioning if they have free return privilages.
We also know that after litening to a speaker for an extended time, people get accustomed to that sound and are less likely to return.
So may be an internet only model can succeed. What do you think?
When I talked about internet speaker manufacturers like SVS, I meant Internet ONLY manufacturers with no dealer outlets. And it seems that they are growing rapidly. I was wondering why you think they are growing in absence of any ability to audition before hand. But as you rightly pointed out, with a short auditory memory, coupled with dealers reluntance to do A/B testing and limited variety of speakers available at each dealer, ,ay be auditioning is not that important. Add to that the fact that speaker technology is maturing, it is conceivable that consumer will be willing to buy a speaker without auditioning if they have free return privilages.
We also know that after litening to a speaker for an extended time, people get accustomed to that sound and are less likely to return.
So may be an internet only model can succeed. What do you think?
shkumar4963 said:
Yes.
People buy shoes online, which is a greater risk and problem than hi-fi if they don't come as expected. It's not just about size, but also fitting, how they feel, how they really look etc. Yet people keep buying shoes online, the one product you would think one has to go to a B&M store. This is why I pointed out the NIKE model, as an extreme.
Buying hi-fi online is a great option. You order 2 or more products you wish to chose from and you compare them in your own home. Send the one you dislike back for a full refund, at just the cost of shipping. Much better than going to a B&M hi-fi shop. Use a switch, don't use a switch, play with positioning, swap amps, sources, cables etc. Build a system from scratch by ordering 3 amps, 3 pairs of speakers and 3 CDPs from different online vendors. The posibilities are amazing.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
That's a very broad generalisation. I only buy Vans online, as I know what I'm getting as far as size is concerned. Because of the limited nature of Vans, shopping around really isn't an option - if you see ones you like (online or in store), you buy them, as there's no guarantee you'll see them again. Any other manufacturer footwear I go and try on and buy in a store, as sizes vary too much. I find that the same with clothes nowadays, as sizes vary so much between manufacturers. I'll admit I did buy a coat last year online after trying it on in a store (in the manufacturer's store, so that's ok according to you as they don't run for profit), but that is because I really didn't want to pay £200 for a winter coat. I got it for £130 (although had to wait a couple of months for that opportunity). Anything else like jeans or other clothing, I like it to fit properly, otherwise I won't wear it, and it'll sit in a draw and be a waste of money. Free returns are nice, but a hassle, and ultimately takes up more time to obtain the clothing you wanted in the first place.Vladimir said:
Until that online dealer goes out of business because they're making little to no profit on the items you return, losing money on shipping costs, and losing money on each transaction charge (purchase and refund). And the B&M dealer goes out of business because no one is buying from him. Yeah, great advice - I think we should all follow Vlad's advice and watch online and B&M dealers disappear altogether.
If the manufacturers that sell direct only are offering better sound quality for the money, whilst still being competitive on looks, reliability, guarantees, then I can't see any real reason for buying from bricks and mortar retailers.
In which case bricks and mortar retailers will go out of business. That's the nature of capitalism.
I for one wouldn't give two hoots if all the UK based hi-fi retailers went out of business. As long as there were direct from manufacturer and 2nd hand sources for me to buy my hi-fi equipment from.
Just as I wouldn't give two hoots if all the PC retailers in the UK went out of business.
For sure it would be a bit sad for all the employees that were made redundant, but if they've got anything about them, they'd get a job elsewhere, sooner or later.
In which case bricks and mortar retailers will go out of business. That's the nature of capitalism.
I for one wouldn't give two hoots if all the UK based hi-fi retailers went out of business. As long as there were direct from manufacturer and 2nd hand sources for me to buy my hi-fi equipment from.
Just as I wouldn't give two hoots if all the PC retailers in the UK went out of business.
For sure it would be a bit sad for all the employees that were made redundant, but if they've got anything about them, they'd get a job elsewhere, sooner or later.
Dealers will keep existing and providing logistics for manufacturers and customers. Just the classical B&M physical auditioning in consumer processing centers will be gone or possibly reduced to high price tag gear. Boutiques not unlike those of high price watches will be what remains, something like Meridian and B&O already have in major cities. The experience of going to a B&O store and getting their gear shipped and installed is what is the ultimate hi-fi luxury experience. Poor people will shop ID.
I had a pair of these a few months back, I was driving them with a musical fidelity a5 with fine tune So the output was 275 watts a channel and they sounded great! I think they need quite a bit of power for small speakers. I was using a nait 5i before and that wasn't up to the job imo (60 watts a channel)
Standmounts don’t go as low as floorstanders as a rule. But many contemporary models are pretty darn good with implying a sense of bass, even if they don’t do so explicitly with chest-thump impact. I’ve spent weeks and weeks on end with PMC DB1i and TB1i, ProAc Tablette Reference 8 and 1SC, ATC SCM 7 and 11 and 19, Rega RS1, Harbeth P3ESR and C7-ES2, Spendor S3/5se and S3/5r and SA 1.
If you’re expecting pipe and slippers from KEF here you’re in for a rude awakening. Put away that knee-blanket, no afternoon nap for you! I’ve spent considerable time with. Aside from Harbeth’s P3ESR, Spendor’s SA1 – a sealed design – are the least rock n roll in the aforelisted boxes and yet I’ve consistently name-checked them as my favourite in the sub-$3k standmount category because of their talents with imaging, tone and transparency (particularly with voices). This pick of the pops now shifts to KEF’s 50th birthday badboys.
The LS50’s top-end is as smooth as that of the Spendor SA1 but that’s pretty much where the similarities end. The LS50 release more upper-frequency air than the SA1 and the ATC SCM11 but not as much as the ProAc TR8 (which sizzles) or PMC DB1i (which sparkles). The rear-ported KEF isn’t transmission line like the DB1i but bass goes considerably deeper than even the PMC. Bass integration is also better on the KEF.
Nothing images like a ProAc? The LS50 do – that’s ‘Uni-Q’ coaxial magic at work. Music emanates from a space between and behind the speakers, seemingly physically disconnected from the boxes spinning the aural illusion.
Excitement and dynamics are more up in yr grill with the LS50 than the Spendor SA1 – they present closer to the PMC DB1i’s “where’s the party?” vibe without giving up anything in the midrange transparency department. There’s also some of the tonal fatness that I enjoy in the ATC SCM 11. Good news too on the mid bass hump front: on the LS50 there isn’t one. They’re also not as power-hungry as the ATCs.
If you’re expecting pipe and slippers from KEF here you’re in for a rude awakening. Put away that knee-blanket, no afternoon nap for you! I’ve spent considerable time with. Aside from Harbeth’s P3ESR, Spendor’s SA1 – a sealed design – are the least rock n roll in the aforelisted boxes and yet I’ve consistently name-checked them as my favourite in the sub-$3k standmount category because of their talents with imaging, tone and transparency (particularly with voices). This pick of the pops now shifts to KEF’s 50th birthday badboys.
The LS50’s top-end is as smooth as that of the Spendor SA1 but that’s pretty much where the similarities end. The LS50 release more upper-frequency air than the SA1 and the ATC SCM11 but not as much as the ProAc TR8 (which sizzles) or PMC DB1i (which sparkles). The rear-ported KEF isn’t transmission line like the DB1i but bass goes considerably deeper than even the PMC. Bass integration is also better on the KEF.
Nothing images like a ProAc? The LS50 do – that’s ‘Uni-Q’ coaxial magic at work. Music emanates from a space between and behind the speakers, seemingly physically disconnected from the boxes spinning the aural illusion.
Excitement and dynamics are more up in yr grill with the LS50 than the Spendor SA1 – they present closer to the PMC DB1i’s “where’s the party?” vibe without giving up anything in the midrange transparency department. There’s also some of the tonal fatness that I enjoy in the ATC SCM 11. Good news too on the mid bass hump front: on the LS50 there isn’t one. They’re also not as power-hungry as the ATCs.
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