Interconnects - Law of Diminishing Returns??

[ISAC69]

Let me ask all you double blind testers this. How many of you listen to Heavy Metal, Death Metal or Black Metal? The most dense and perpousfuly distorted music, the biggest challange for any Hi-Fi system. I ask this because and I've mentioned this before. Some albums used to sound dull and though the songs were great to listen to but the dullness of the sound quality would put me off really enjoying them.

No with with my expensive cleverly marketed magial cables on my system the dullness has gone, reverb is now audible on the drums and vocals that was not audible before and on other albums that sounded harsh to my ears at loud volumes preventing me from listening at a volume that would allow more detail to be heard now sound much less hars and significantly more detailed and I can now listen at louder volumes in comfort.

You guys whole heartedly feel that it's all in my head and somehow my ears have have suddenly got used to the harsh sounds from these albums and suddenly they are capable of hearing reverb on albums I have never heard before?????

There are too many cables and Hi-Fi combinations to find out why and what combinations these things happen but blind test all you like I happy to just enjoy my music fully at last where I couldn't before.

 

[Native_bon]

Who are the flat earthers exactly? Those who are prepared to open up to the idea that maybe, just maybe, we don't know everything yet about how electricity, (or a soundwave within an electrical current), flows, or those who say No! No! No! No!

I have a high end system and I tell you that there are differences between cables that can easily be heard if the other equipment in your chain is revealing enough. Better or worse is debatable, but different? Most certainly.

As for the nonsense that some on here spout about recording studios and the professional music industry using £0.99 interconnects in their setups, I can tell you from personal experience that this is complete and utter rubbish.

Its not total rubbish cause you have not given any example.. I have been to so many recording studios and every studio I have been to uses the proffessional studio cables for the average cost of about £30.00, not the hundreds of £ss spent no HIFI cables. So I dnt think you were specific in your condemnation.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

but bad cables do alter the sound such as uncontrol bass , less details , unstable soundstage act.

Hi ISAC69

As i said before earlier in the week i was using an ATC SCA2/Hegel H30 combination (at nearly £16k) connected with basic XLR - XLR cables which were bought from a local electrical store for a few £. I still heard great resolution with low frequencies which were controlled, tight fisted and had thwack and with a rock solid (no wobble, wobble *biggrin* ) soundstage

All the best

Rick @ Musicaft

 

[Cypher]

I also don't think there are good or bad cables. They are all the same.

Also that silver speaker cable is sounding brighter than copper............I wonder who came up with that ? The cable manufacturer maybe ? *wink*

 

[Glacialpath]

but bad cables do alter the sound such as uncontrol bass , less details , unstable soundstage act.

Hi ISAC69

As i said before earlier in the week i was using an ATC SCA2/Hegel H30 combination (at nearly £16k) connected with basic XLR - XLR cables which were bought from a local electrical store for a few £. I still heard great resolution with low frequencies which were controlled, tight fisted and had thwack and with a rock solid (no wobble, wobble *biggrin* ) soundstage

All the best

Rick @ Musicaft

I really don't think we can be pitching balanced XLR cables against unbalanced RCA cables. Most cables in studios are balanced and the way balanced cables works negates using expensive RCA cables to achive the same result.

Of course you can argue why don't Hi-Fi and AV manufacturers make all their interconnections and speaker connections with XLRs. Cost and size would be the answer I would imagine. They know that most people will just stick with the cables supplied with their new system.

I don't know how much extra cost would be involved to not only construct everything with XLR in mind but then supply all the balanced cable needed and the terminations even if they used the cheapest components avaiable.

This is also why I don't really count "in the studio" t be any part of the argument. OUr listening rooms are not studios unless people decide to build one in their home.

I guess the best thing would be instead of spending hundreds on RCA interconnects to just upgrade our Hi-Fi components to those with XLR connections.

 

[Overdose]

but bad cables do alter the sound such as uncontrol bass , less details , unstable soundstage act.

Hi ISAC69

As i said before earlier in the week i was using an ATC SCA2/Hegel H30 combination (at nearly £16k) connected with basic XLR - XLR cables which were bought from a local electrical store for a few £. I still heard great resolution with low frequencies which were controlled, tight fisted and had thwack and with a rock solid (no wobble, wobble *biggrin* ) soundstage

All the best

Rick @ Musicaft

I really don't think we can be pitching balanced XLR cables against unbalanced RCA cables. Most cables in studios are balanced and the way balanced cables works negates using expensive RCA cables to achive the same result.

Of course you can argue why don't Hi-Fi and AV manufacturers make all their interconnections and speaker connections with XLRs. Cost and size would be the answer I would imagine. They know that most people will just stick with the cables supplied with their new system.

I don't know how much extra cost would be involved to not only construct everything with XLR in mind but then supply all the balanced cable needed and the terminations even if they used the cheapest components avaiable.

This is also why I don't really count "in the studio" t be any part of the argument. OUr listening rooms are not studios unless people decide to build one in their home.

I guess the best thing would be instead of spending hundreds on RCA interconnects to just upgrade our Hi-Fi components to those with XLR connections.

Every post you make seems to show another level of misunderstanding. I hate to be blunt, but you really don't seem to have a clue.

XLR is a type of connector and is not a definitive indicator of a cable being balanced.

Balanced cables are used in studios because of the relatively noisy electrical environment and their design resists induced RFI and EMI. Their drawback is a potentially higher noise floor due to the additional gain in balanced systems.

Unbalanced cables are perfectly adequate in home hifi, not having to be subject to the same congestion levels as in a studio, the lengths are also typically much shorter, further reducing the chance and levels of RFI and EMI. Interconnects are also quite often shielded. The comment regarding the need for expensive RCA unbalanced cables to match cheaper balanced cables is entirely erroneuos as it is the design of the cable that matters, not the cost.

As for not encountering XLR connections so frequently in hifi, this is usuallly true for the reasons above, but studio equipment can be used in the home quite happily and provide far better bang for your buck than hifi, being much cheaper on a like for like basis.

 

[CnoEvil]

XLR is a type of connector and is not a definitive indicator of a cable being balanced.....

It is if it's on an interconnect.

 

[Gazzip]

Paul Epworth uses Studio Connections cables, as do Abbey Road Studios. £650 for a 1m XLR. £145 for a 1m power lead. Why do you think they might do that?

Who are the flat earthers exactly? Those who are prepared to open up to the idea that maybe, just maybe, we don't know everything yet about how electricity, (or a soundwave within an electrical current), flows, or those who say No! No! No! No!

I have a high end system and I tell you that there are differences between cables that can easily be heard if the other equipment in your chain is revealing enough. Better or worse is debatable, but different? Most certainly.

As for the nonsense that some on here spout about recording studios and the professional music industry using £0.99 interconnects in their setups, I can tell you from personal experience that this is complete and utter rubbish.

Its not total rubbish cause you have not given any example.. I have been to so many recording studios and every studio I have been to uses the proffessional studio cables for the average cost of about £30.00, not the hundreds of £ss spent no HIFI cables. So I dnt think you were specific in your condemnation.

 

[davedotco]

XLR is a type of connector and is not a definitive indicator of a cable being balanced.....

It is if it's on an interconnect.

Errr, no it is not. XLR cables can be balanced or unbalanced, hi-fi has a history of using XLR cables in non balanced situations.

The primary advantage of XLR connectors is that their are 4 connections that can be connected in different ways, balanced, unbalanced, combined earth, separate earth, directional, whatever suits the applications.

 

[CnoEvil]

XLR is a type of connector and is not a definitive indicator of a cable being balanced.....

It is if it's on an interconnect.

Errr, no it is not. XLR cables can be balanced or unbalanced, hi-fi has a history of using XLR cables in non balanced situations.

The primary advantage of XLR connectors is that their are 4 connections that can be connected in different ways, balanced, unbalanced, combined earth, separate earth, directional, whatever suits the applications.

I was referring to the common 3 pin -> 3pin XLR interconnect, which is primarily used on balanced applications.....but happy to be proved wrong.

 

[davedotco]

XLR is a type of connector and is not a definitive indicator of a cable being balanced.....

It is if it's on an interconnect.

Errr, no it is not. XLR cables can be balanced or unbalanced, hi-fi has a history of using XLR cables in non balanced situations.

The primary advantage of XLR connectors is that their are 4 connections that can be connected in different ways, balanced, unbalanced, combined earth, separate earth, directional, whatever suits the applications.

I was referring to the common 3 pin XLR, which is primarily used on balanced applications.....but happy to be proved wrong.

So was I.

Exposure routinely used unbalanced XLR connections as did other manufacturers. Some because the XLR is possibly a superior connector others because of the 'safer' earth first connection.

 

[Glacialpath]

but bad cables do alter the sound such as uncontrol bass , less details , unstable soundstage act.

Hi ISAC69

As i said before earlier in the week i was using an ATC SCA2/Hegel H30 combination (at nearly £16k) connected with basic XLR - XLR cables which were bought from a local electrical store for a few £. I still heard great resolution with low frequencies which were controlled, tight fisted and had thwack and with a rock solid (no wobble, wobble *biggrin* ) soundstage

All the best

Rick @ Musicaft

I really don't think we can be pitching balanced XLR cables against unbalanced RCA cables. Most cables in studios are balanced and the way balanced cables works negates using expensive RCA cables to achive the same result.

Of course you can argue why don't Hi-Fi and AV manufacturers make all their interconnections and speaker connections with XLRs. Cost and size would be the answer I would imagine. They know that most people will just stick with the cables supplied with their new system.

I don't know how much extra cost would be involved to not only construct everything with XLR in mind but then supply all the balanced cable needed and the terminations even if they used the cheapest components avaiable.

This is also why I don't really count "in the studio" t be any part of the argument. OUr listening rooms are not studios unless people decide to build one in their home.

I guess the best thing would be instead of spending hundreds on RCA interconnects to just upgrade our Hi-Fi components to those with XLR connections.

Every post you make seems to show another level of misunderstanding. I hate to be blunt, but you really don't seem to have a clue.

XLR is a type of connector and is not a definitive indicator of a cable being balanced.

Balanced cables are used in studios because of the relatively noisy electrical environment and their design resists induced RFI and EMI. Their drawback is a potentially higher noise floor due to the additional gain in balanced systems.

Unbalanced cables are perfectly adequate in home hifi, not having to be subject to the same congestion levels as in a studio, the lengths are also typically much shorter, further reducing the chance and levels of RFI and EMI. Interconnects are also quite often shielded. The comment regarding the need for expensive RCA unbalanced cables to match cheaper balanced cables is entirely erroneuos as it is the design of the cable that matters, not the cost.

As for not encountering XLR connections so frequently in hifi, this is usuallly true for the reasons above, but studio equipment can be used in the home quite happily and provide far better bang for your buck than hifi, being much cheaper on a like for like basis.

Overdose, do you really just read my name and then proceed to not read my posts properly?

Come on mate give me a break. I said "most cables in a studio are balanced" Then you go on about the levels of RFI and EMI. Well yes they will be much higher in a studio with all the kit in them. On a home system if you got a TV, Sky box, AVR, BDP, Active Subwoofer or 2 and if the Hi-Fi is in the same room, an Amp or 2, a CDP, Streamer, DAC....the list can go on. Though the level of RFI and EMI will not be anywhere near a studio with all the other cables used to connect up a system, if they are cheap meaning not shielded or poorly shielded, RFI and EMI will be in the system. Maybe not at a level that is significant enough to be heard in the music but to add to the list you got laptops on Wi-Fi, mobile phones, tablets and all sorts of other things so maybe the interfearence is high for the size of some peoples listening rooms. Not to mention mains noise. Who knows how good or bad any perticular home mains supply is. I bet they aren't the same, some being cleaner than others.

You almost admit screening is needed in the home and some cables do a better job than others. The fact that studios have to protect against RFI and EMI so much is more reason why we should stop comparing our home systems to that of a studio as the environments are completely different and requierments are pretty different too. Especcially if my analogy of the amount a home system generates is wrong.

Yes the cable lengths are considerably different between home and studio but you still get large clumps of cable in one place at home all potentially creating fields around themselves if not adiquately constructed so actually I think systems at home using balanced cables does make sense over having to spend quite a large sum on cables that do a good job at keeping out the RFI and EMI and machanical noise too.

Granted cables don't have to be expensive but until someone puts a cheap £20 interconnect on my system that does as good a job as my Anthem I'll be sticking with the more expensive ones. I've had quite a few different cables on my system. Some rally cheap, some probably more expensive ones (no idea how much they would be new as I aquired them from work) and the Chameleolns and Anthem have blown them all away.

 

[CnoEvil]

So was I.

Exposure routinely used unbalanced XLR connections as did other manufacturers. Some because the XLR is possibly a superior connector others because of the 'safer' earth first connection.

You mentioned 4 connections which threw me a bit, as 4 pin XLRs exist.

Are you aware of any manufacturer currently using unbalanced 3 pin XLRs; or even somewhere that you can buy an unbalanced 3 pin xlr audio cable?

I'm not trying to be be awkward here, but I have only come across 3 types of connectors: Din (now less common), RCA and XLR (which to the vast majority of people mean the cable is Balanced).

 

[davedotco]

You mentioned 4 connections which threw me a bit, as 4 pin XLRs exist.

Are you aware of any manufacturer currently using unbalanced 3 pin XLRs; or even somewhere that you can buy an unbalanced 3 pin xlr audio cable?

I'm not trying to be be awkward here, but I have only come across 3 types of connectors: 5 Pin Din (now less common), RCA and XLR (which to the vast majority of people mean the cable is Balanced).

Ok.

Three pin XLR connectors all have four connectors, pins 1, 2 and 3 and the conductive shell. Normally the shell is wired to pin 1, which in the days of transformer coupling was absolutely fine.

Much modern equipment uses 'electronically' balanced inputs and outputs which complicates the issue as it does not isolate signal and chassis ground. Get this wrong and balanced XLR cables can actually cause noise, rather than reduce it.

You will not generally, buy an unbalanced XLR cable, certainly not in the pro world, they are all supplied with all connections wired. This does not mean that the signal carried is balanced, this is determined by the components on either end and the way that their sockets are wired.

In the hi-fi world, classic Exposure pre-power amplifiers could use a standard 'balanced' cable, even though only two connectors were actually used by the amps. This was done as they believed that XLRs were a superior connector to the phonos of the day, I can not think of any modern hi-fi that uses unbalanced XLR connectors.

 

[davedotco]

You mentioned 4 connections which threw me a bit, as 4 pin XLRs exist.

Are you aware of any manufacturer currently using unbalanced 3 pin XLRs; or even somewhere that you can buy an unbalanced 3 pin xlr audio cable?

I'm not trying to be be awkward here, but I have only come across 3 types of connectors: 5 Pin Din (now less common), RCA and XLR (which to the vast majority of people mean the cable is Balanced).

Ok.

Three pin XLR connectors all have four connectors, pins 1, 2 and 3 and the conductive shell. Normally the shell is wired to pin 1, which in the days of transformer coupling was absolutely fine.

Much modern equipment uses 'electronically' balanced inputs and outputs which complicates the issue as it does not isolate signal and chassis ground. Get this wrong and balanced XLR cables can actually cause noise, rather than reduce it.

You will not generally, buy an unbalanced XLR cable, certainly not in the pro world, they are all supplied with all connections wired. This does not mean that the signal carried is balanced, this is determined by the components on either end and the way that their sockets are wired.

In the hi-fi world, classic Exposure pre-power amplifiers could use a standard 'balanced' cable, even though only two connectors were actually used by the amps. This was done as they believed that XLRs were a superior connector to the phonos of the day, I can not think of any modern hi-fi that uses unbalanced XLR connectors.

So surely it is not unreasonable, with today's equipment, to take XLR as being synonymus with Balanced audio interconnects?

That is probably fair in respect of hi-fi equipment at the current time. It is not however the case that all XLR connections are balanced which in my rather laboured way was the point being made, there is no reason to assume that XLR cables always carry a balanced signal.

Generally speaking there is no sonic advantage in using balanced connections, certainly not in the case of line level signals in the domestic environment. In some cases using such connections can be the cause of earthing issues as explained above.

 

[CnoEvil]

You mentioned 4 connections which threw me a bit, as 4 pin XLRs exist.

Are you aware of any manufacturer currently using unbalanced 3 pin XLRs; or even somewhere that you can buy an unbalanced 3 pin xlr audio cable?

I'm not trying to be be awkward here, but I have only come across 3 types of connectors: 5 Pin Din (now less common), RCA and XLR (which to the vast majority of people mean the cable is Balanced).

Ok.

Three pin XLR connectors all have four connectors, pins 1, 2 and 3 and the conductive shell. Normally the shell is wired to pin 1, which in the days of transformer coupling was absolutely fine.

Much modern equipment uses 'electronically' balanced inputs and outputs which complicates the issue as it does not isolate signal and chassis ground. Get this wrong and balanced XLR cables can actually cause noise, rather than reduce it.

You will not generally, buy an unbalanced XLR cable, certainly not in the pro world, they are all supplied with all connections wired. This does not mean that the signal carried is balanced, this is determined by the components on either end and the way that their sockets are wired.

In the hi-fi world, classic Exposure pre-power amplifiers could use a standard 'balanced' cable, even though only two connectors were actually used by the amps. This was done as they believed that XLRs were a superior connector to the phonos of the day, I can not think of any modern hi-fi that uses unbalanced XLR connectors.

So surely it is not unreasonable, with today's equipment, to take XLR as being synonymus with Balanced audio interconnects?

I agree however that some older components with an XLR socket were not fully balanced (Linn for example, now that I think of it).....This is where I believed our wires got crossed.

Here is an explanation that may explain it (really for my benefit rather than yours): http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/audio-faqs/balanced-versus-unbalanced

 

[Overdose]

XLR is a type of connector and is not a definitive indicator of a cable being balanced.....

It is if it's on an interconnect.

Errr, no it is not. XLR cables can be balanced or unbalanced, hi-fi has a history of using XLR cables in non balanced situations.

The primary advantage of XLR connectors is that their are 4 connections that can be connected in different ways, balanced, unbalanced, combined earth, separate earth, directional, whatever suits the applications.

I was referring to the common 3 pin XLR, which is primarily used on balanced applications.....but happy to be proved wrong.

So was I.

Exposure routinely used unbalanced XLR connections as did other manufacturers. Some because the XLR is possibly a superior connector others because of the 'safer' earth first connection.

Deleted. Covered by ddc earlier.

 

[CnoEvil]

+1 to the above, apart from cnos comments, which are unfortunately wrong.

XLR connectors uses are many and varied with balanced audio being but one. Their primary benefit is that of robustness and security of connection.

I was correct within the context that I used it.....ie. XLR interconnects, within the hifi world, are known as "Balanced".

If you read DDC's expanded answers, he believes this to be reasonable.

 

[CnoEvil]

That is probably fair in respect of hi-fi equipment at the current time. It is not however the case that all XLR connections are balanced which in my rather laboured way was the point being made, there is no reason to assume that XLR cables always carry a balanced signal.

Generally speaking there is no sonic advantage in using balanced connections, certainly not in the case of line level signals in the domestic environment. In some cases using such connections can be the cause of earthing issues as explained above.

I edited my post to say something similar, which then crossed with yours.

 

[Overdose]

+1 to the above, apart from cnos comments, which are unfortunately wrong.

XLR connectors uses are many and varied with balanced audio being but one. Their primary benefit is that of robustness and security of connection.

I was correct within the context that I used it.....ie. XLR interconnects, within the hifi world, are known as "Balanced".

If you read DDC's expanded answers, he believes this to be reasonable.

Lol. Whatever.

 

[CnoEvil]

+1 to the above, apart from cnos comments, which are unfortunately wrong.

XLR connectors uses are many and varied with balanced audio being but one. Their primary benefit is that of robustness and security of connection.

I was correct within the context that I used it.....ie. XLR interconnects, within the hifi world, are known as "Balanced".

If you read DDC's expanded answers, he believes this to be reasonable.

Lol. Whatever.

That's as close to an apology as I'm going to get, so I'll take it.

 

[Overdose]

+1 to the above, apart from cnos comments, which are unfortunately wrong.

XLR connectors uses are many and varied with balanced audio being but one. Their primary benefit is that of robustness and security of connection.

I was correct within the context that I used it.....ie. XLR interconnects, within the hifi world, are known as "Balanced".

If you read DDC's expanded answers, he believes this to be reasonable.

Lol. Whatever.

That's as close to an apology as I'm going to get, so I'll take it.

Priceless. You'd better put away that shovel before you get any deeper.

Again, for clarity.

XLR cables are simply a type of construction using a particular connector. The cable itself will not be balanced, but may be used with balanced equipment if wired to do so*. Not all hifi equipment utilising XLR connectors for audio are balanced. Remember that a cable is an assembly of component parts. An XLR cable is simply two XLR connectors joind by a wire, the configuration is down to the manufacturer. Although a twisted shielded pair is typical for three pin connectivity, it is not always the case.

Just stick to the facts rather than sweeping assumptions, it's far easier.

*There are probably some oddball esoteric cables wired non standard and or wired for pseudo balanced connection.

 

[steve_1979]

Paul Epworth uses Studio Connections cables, as do Abbey Road Studios. £650 for a 1m XLR. £145 for a 1m power lead. Why do you think they might do that?

This is only a guess.

But any equipment that Abbey Road uses is great advertising for the equipment provider. The cables were probably given to them for free. Hell, for all we know they might even be getting paid to use those cables because of the good advertising that it provides for the cable manufacturers.

I suspect that Abby Road would be just as happy to use a standard £30 pro-audio cable as a £650 one because they would both sound exactly the same.

 

[CnoEvil]

Deleted

 

[Overdose]

Again, for clarity.

XLR cables are simply a type of construction using a particular connector.

A cable with that type of construction is often called "Balanced"....if you don't believe me, Google "Balanced Audio Cable", and you'll see what I mean.

As with DDC, we are arguing at cross purposes.

I'm aware of what a 'balanced cable' is, that is not in dispute. What is, is your assertion that an XLR cable is balanced. A balanced audio cable will almost universally employ XLR connectors, however, the use of XLR connectors does not always imply balanced audio use.

Word to the wise, if you ever get any equipment utilising these types of connectors, seek professional guidance before buying a cable for it, as you might end up causing significant damage if you work on your current assumptions.