And the flogging on double blind testing goes on and on, through bad limericks, long winded posts (take a bow, Dave) and boring anecdotes, but the dead horse has remained in the exact same spot since the last time I looked.
Overdose
Well-known member
steve_1979 said:Overdose said:chebby said:steve_1979 said:cheeseboy said:gwynne61 said:
they always do
Why do I still read these threads????
I think a lot of the most vociferous 'contributors' to such threads must have the idea that their next post will be the one that makes everyone think ... "wow, you've really convinced me - with that last post of yours - that i'm wrong and I have always been wrong".
Wildly optimistic of course.
..and yet, here we all are. Bored, but still chipping in. So not really that disinterested enough so as not to comment.
Cable threads are the HiFi forum equivalent of watching EastEnders.
I wouldn't know, I never watch it.
Overdose
Well-known member
steve_1979 said:Overdose said:chebby said:steve_1979 said:cheeseboy said:gwynne61 said:
they always do
Why do I still read these threads????
I think a lot of the most vociferous 'contributors' to such threads must have the idea that their next post will be the one that makes everyone think ... "wow, you've really convinced me - with that last post of yours - that i'm wrong and I have always been wrong".
Wildly optimistic of course.
..and yet, here we all are. Bored, but still chipping in. So not really that disinterested enough so as not to comment.
Cable threads are the HiFi forum equivalent of watching EastEnders.
I'll take your word for it, I never watch it.
steve_1979
Well-known member
Overdose said:steve_1979 said:Overdose said:chebby said:steve_1979 said:cheeseboy said:gwynne61 said:
they always do
Why do I still read these threads????
I think a lot of the most vociferous 'contributors' to such threads must have the idea that their next post will be the one that makes everyone think ... "wow, you've really convinced me - with that last post of yours - that i'm wrong and I have always been wrong".
Wildly optimistic of course.
..and yet, here we all are. Bored, but still chipping in. So not really that disinterested enough so as not to comment.
Cable threads are the HiFi forum equivalent of watching EastEnders.
I'll take your word for it, I never watch it.
Me neither.
...unlike these cable threads which I always read.
I have no doubt that interconnects/speaker cables can make a difference.
How much of that is due to the conductor/insulation used ... I am not sure but any unshielded cable can introduce rubbish in to the system. I use ferrite cores of different sizes/strengths on every interconnect and my speaker cables as well as in my amplifiers. A couple of my interconnects have the cores built in already. Good practice but probably to expensive for some manufacturers, even if they charge a fortune.
regards
How much of that is due to the conductor/insulation used ... I am not sure but any unshielded cable can introduce rubbish in to the system. I use ferrite cores of different sizes/strengths on every interconnect and my speaker cables as well as in my amplifiers. A couple of my interconnects have the cores built in already. Good practice but probably to expensive for some manufacturers, even if they charge a fortune.
regards
nopiano
Well-known member
That is a great anecdote, Cno, and is pretty much the type of experience I have had in the past . When I used to demo hifi on Saturdays, the manager could pretty much identify any changes from outside the dem room, and I got familiar enough with the biggest sellers to know how it was wired up.CnoEvil said:
When I installed the gear, I would sometimes change cartridges or cables to fine tune the results. I was not on commission and my only wish was to see a family happy with their music!
With all the circular arguments and polemic debate, I went some time ago on my own personal crusade to find out what I thought. As a result, I have heard quite a few cables ranging from quite expensive to very expensive, like:
Telurium Q Black / Ultra Black
Atlas Mavros / Asimi
Vertere Pulse B / Pulse R / Pulse X / Pulse X Ref
Cardas Golden Cross
TCI Cobra / King Cobra
Chord Anthem / Sarum Tuned Aray
Linn Silver
I can only report what I heard and don't expect anyone to take my word for it.....and I didn't always prefer the most expensive, and an example of that was that I preferred the Mavros to the Asimi.
The only time I did a sort of a blind test was a few months ago. In fact it was so blind, I didn't even know it was a test....and have mentioned it here before.
I had been down twice to test the LS50s vs R100s, both of which have always sounded brilliant, so before purchase, I wanted Mrs. Cno to hear them both, to make sure the LS50s were worth the extra.
When we went to the dealer and started listening, there was a brightness and slight sibilance that she immediately commented on. It was there on the LS50s and worse on the R100s. I knew it hadn't been there before and put it down to the system not being warmed up.
After an hour it had not gone away, so when Michael (owner) went out to deal with a customer, I thought I'd poke about to see if I could see what the cause might be. First I checked the S/Cs, which were the install copper ones they always used, so not the problem. I then checked the I/C, and found that the system was connected with an Atlas Voyager. This was most surprising and unexpected, as he always used Linn Blacks and didn't deal with Atlas.
Now 3 years ago I bought the Atlas Voyager from Ebay and when I plugged it into my system, they made it sound "shouty" with a sibilant treble.....so I traded it in with Michael.
When Michael returned, I asked why he had used the Voyager and he said that the day before, a customer asked to hear an I/C that was less smooth/more exciting than the Linn Black, so he had used the Voyager. Then when he put this system together before I arrived, he'd just used the Voyager out of handiness, as it was there.
When the Linn Blacks were put back, the brightness and sibilance disappeared. Now you can say that the change of sound with insertion of the Blacks was expectation bias, but it doesn't explain why I went looking for a problem in the first place, especially after having had 2 long, previous dems, where nothing was amiss.
I'm not claiming that it was absolute proof of anything, but I did spot that something was wrong, even though expectation bias led me to believe that the system was connected up as usual with Linn Blacks....and that something was a cable I rejected 3 years ago for doing the same thing to my system.
Telurium Q Black / Ultra Black
Atlas Mavros / Asimi
Vertere Pulse B / Pulse R / Pulse X / Pulse X Ref
Cardas Golden Cross
TCI Cobra / King Cobra
Chord Anthem / Sarum Tuned Aray
Linn Silver
I can only report what I heard and don't expect anyone to take my word for it.....and I didn't always prefer the most expensive, and an example of that was that I preferred the Mavros to the Asimi.
The only time I did a sort of a blind test was a few months ago. In fact it was so blind, I didn't even know it was a test....and have mentioned it here before.
I had been down twice to test the LS50s vs R100s, both of which have always sounded brilliant, so before purchase, I wanted Mrs. Cno to hear them both, to make sure the LS50s were worth the extra.
When we went to the dealer and started listening, there was a brightness and slight sibilance that she immediately commented on. It was there on the LS50s and worse on the R100s. I knew it hadn't been there before and put it down to the system not being warmed up.
After an hour it had not gone away, so when Michael (owner) went out to deal with a customer, I thought I'd poke about to see if I could see what the cause might be. First I checked the S/Cs, which were the install copper ones they always used, so not the problem. I then checked the I/C, and found that the system was connected with an Atlas Voyager. This was most surprising and unexpected, as he always used Linn Blacks and didn't deal with Atlas.
Now 3 years ago I bought the Atlas Voyager from Ebay and when I plugged it into my system, they made it sound "shouty" with a sibilant treble.....so I traded it in with Michael.
When Michael returned, I asked why he had used the Voyager and he said that the day before, a customer asked to hear an I/C that was less smooth/more exciting than the Linn Black, so he had used the Voyager. Then when he put this system together before I arrived, he'd just used the Voyager out of handiness, as it was there.
When the Linn Blacks were put back, the brightness and sibilance disappeared. Now you can say that the change of sound with insertion of the Blacks was expectation bias, but it doesn't explain why I went looking for a problem in the first place, especially after having had 2 long, previous dems, where nothing was amiss.
I'm not claiming that it was absolute proof of anything, but I did spot that something was wrong, even though expectation bias led me to believe that the system was connected up as usual with Linn Blacks....and that something was a cable I rejected 3 years ago for doing the same thing to my system.
Overdose
Well-known member
drummerman said:
Not too expensive for Pc manufacturers though, that use them as standard and are usually free.
Overdose
Well-known member
Overdose
Well-known member
nopiano said:
Both of these anecdotes resonate very strongly with me.
As an (ex) dealer I have had literally hundreds of similar experiences, knowing what is playing from outside the room, detecting changes without knowing anything has been changed and myriad others. I imagine most dealers have similar experiences.
The imprtant thing here is that I am hearing all these things on a regular basis despite having carried out many blind tests, often of the exact same components and heard no discernable differences.
It is this contradiction that I find so fascinating and of course this leads straight to the theory that changes in components, cables even, hit us on a level that is very deep in the subconcious way below the kind obvious SQ differences that show up on a blind test.
This does not alter tha fact that most of the 'differences' we hear between cables in sighted tests are illusory but it does muddy the waters some what. Some people suggest that you have to live with the components for a while to really be able to evaluate them, but such tests as are available suggest that long term audio memory is very unreliable.
All very interesting, to me anyway. When auditioning any components I try hard to do so with a mix of practical realism and gut reaction, all part of the fun.
Personally I think its familiarity - you hear something a lot - it changes you recognise it - thats why people say they need time
I think Its easier to hear a negative change than a positive - unless the positive is significant - quite often if this is a big positive change it can come with contention - is it better or is it not?? Its not how I am used to it... Changing one speaker co to another is different to just going up the range for example. This could all well be purely psychological
As I said before if we could all *** off and hear it as it is supposed to sound then we could have a reference point to base against but how many people can honestly say they have this..?
The blind testing I have seen / read about people do get familiarity time but its not like sitting in your own home, in room acoustics you are familiar with (which makes more difference than anything else). It would all be new and in that instance it is difficult from experience to know whats what so its not surprising blind test results dont prove positive on cable changes.
Obviously looking at it the other way the £1000 cable should clearly be audibly better than the £5 cable - but do we know what to listen for in the first place. In my blind test I correctly identified the same preference 3 times and it was the worst of the bunch. That was more how I was used to hearing it - with phat added to the sound which is actually technically wrong. But its clear to me why I chose that one, I remember that hobby changing experience very well.
I think Its easier to hear a negative change than a positive - unless the positive is significant - quite often if this is a big positive change it can come with contention - is it better or is it not?? Its not how I am used to it... Changing one speaker co to another is different to just going up the range for example. This could all well be purely psychological
As I said before if we could all *** off and hear it as it is supposed to sound then we could have a reference point to base against but how many people can honestly say they have this..?
The blind testing I have seen / read about people do get familiarity time but its not like sitting in your own home, in room acoustics you are familiar with (which makes more difference than anything else). It would all be new and in that instance it is difficult from experience to know whats what so its not surprising blind test results dont prove positive on cable changes.
Obviously looking at it the other way the £1000 cable should clearly be audibly better than the £5 cable - but do we know what to listen for in the first place. In my blind test I correctly identified the same preference 3 times and it was the worst of the bunch. That was more how I was used to hearing it - with phat added to the sound which is actually technically wrong. But its clear to me why I chose that one, I remember that hobby changing experience very well.
Similar threads
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
-
-
-
-
I'm a LiAV(!) and the future is Not Vinyl or CD, it's DAC / Streaming, what do yo think?- Started by Jasonovich
- Replies: 43
-
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram