Interconnects - Law of Diminishing Returns??

[Native_bon]

It still amazes me how people still run away from reality of cables.. Expectation will never ever give you true judgement. Blind testing will. I will actually go as far as saying any product being reviewed should not be disclosed untill the review is over.. then & only then should the product be revealed to the person or persons. For exmaple price, power, av amp, 2 channel amp, product make, size or weight of an amp should not be revealed untill the review is over.

This way any biased thought are removed.

 

[steve_1979]

1. Objectivists are deaf.

2. Subjectivists are delusional.

*blum3*

 

[davedotco]

Pretty much anything can change perceptions. There is a marketing concept "perception is reality" which basically means that if you can persuade customers that a product has a certain characteristic then you can sell it on that basis whether it does or doesn't actually have it. Interestingly someone posted something about "does what it says on the tin" which is a marketing slogan designed to do exactly that. (The woman who invented the slogan was on Radio 4 the other day.) Skoda had this problem, nobody would believe their cars were any good even when they started to be. They have changed that preception now.

The problem with perceptions is that you believe them because we have the evidence of our senses which is how we live our lives. Sometimes we just don't know we are being fooled. There's a great stretch of road in Scotland known as "electric brae" where cars will roll uphill under no power. Actually it's downhill but your eyes will never tell you that.

So nobody is saying that those who hear differences aren't actually hearing them. They do say that you need to check your perceptions somehow.

Chris

This is not actually 100% categorically accurate/ true - because sometimes it works in complete reverse.

It happened to me recently where a friend brought over some of his cables to try - I put in one of his cables not expecting anything or for things to probably be worse - I knew nothing about the cable, the brand, didnt know the price or anything.

I listened for a bit - all very good - then went back to my previous cable and instantly then realised / heard the difference in a negative way by comparison - repeated the test and the same was true second time around. This was a very shocking but very useful experience. One good thing about using a processor with a digital display is that you can select the exact same volume everytime.

So in relation to this topic my expectation bias was completely proved wrong by the actual experience of using the unknown product

This is almost a blind test as I knew there was going to be a change but knew nothing about the product being used so had no preconception of what to expect. But know the systems and rooms sonic characeristic extremely well so it was easy to notice the change.

Had I known the cost of the product upfront it possinbly would have affected my expectation bias but I genuinely knew nothing about it

Sorry, but this simply shows that you have no idea as to how expectation bias and proper blind testing works.

What you have described is a perfectly normal sighted test, we can all hear the 'differences' on tests like his.

You think that no-one has ever listened to unkown cables before?

 

[davedotco]

1. Objectivists are deaf.

2. Subjectivists are delusional.

*blum3*

Yer what......?

 

[ellisdj]

Pretty much anything can change perceptions. There is a marketing concept "perception is reality" which basically means that if you can persuade customers that a product has a certain characteristic then you can sell it on that basis whether it does or doesn't actually have it. Interestingly someone posted something about "does what it says on the tin" which is a marketing slogan designed to do exactly that. (The woman who invented the slogan was on Radio 4 the other day.) Skoda had this problem, nobody would believe their cars were any good even when they started to be. They have changed that preception now.

The problem with perceptions is that you believe them because we have the evidence of our senses which is how we live our lives. Sometimes we just don't know we are being fooled. There's a great stretch of road in Scotland known as "electric brae" where cars will roll uphill under no power. Actually it's downhill but your eyes will never tell you that.

So nobody is saying that those who hear differences aren't actually hearing them. They do say that you need to check your perceptions somehow.

Chris

This is not actually 100% categorically accurate/ true - because sometimes it works in complete reverse.

It happened to me recently where a friend brought over some of his cables to try - I put in one of his cables not expecting anything or for things to probably be worse - I knew nothing about the cable, the brand, didnt know the price or anything.

I listened for a bit - all very good - then went back to my previous cable and instantly then realised / heard the difference in a negative way by comparison - repeated the test and the same was true second time around. This was a very shocking but very useful experience. One good thing about using a processor with a digital display is that you can select the exact same volume everytime.

So in relation to this topic my expectation bias was completely proved wrong by the actual experience of using the unknown product

This is almost a blind test as I knew there was going to be a change but knew nothing about the product being used so had no preconception of what to expect. But know the systems and rooms sonic characeristic extremely well so it was easy to notice the change.

Had I known the cost of the product upfront it possinbly would have affected my expectation bias but I genuinely knew nothing about it

Sorry, but this simply shows that you have no idea as to how expectation bias and proper blind testing works.

What you have described is a perfectly normal sighted test, we can all hear the 'differences' on tests like his.

You think that no-one has ever listened to unkown cables before?

Nope I do fully understand and have done full blind testing and heard consistent differences.

You have twisted this to try and support your arguement which still goes on the same tune regardless. its painful to be involved in, you must have the last word it appears which is fine. Really Pointless

These comments were aimed at a different comment by someone else - the point was even if you are not expecting any difference or the difference to be worse and then you still hear it/ hear an improvement then there cannot be a preconcieved "its going to be better because of price, what I have read etc" bias as thats difinitively not what was being thought when listening...... the resulting self drawn personal conclusion is purely based on the actual experience.

 

[davedotco]

Pretty much anything can change perceptions. There is a marketing concept "perception is reality" which basically means that if you can persuade customers that a product has a certain characteristic then you can sell it on that basis whether it does or doesn't actually have it. Interestingly someone posted something about "does what it says on the tin" which is a marketing slogan designed to do exactly that. (The woman who invented the slogan was on Radio 4 the other day.) Skoda had this problem, nobody would believe their cars were any good even when they started to be. They have changed that preception now.

The problem with perceptions is that you believe them because we have the evidence of our senses which is how we live our lives. Sometimes we just don't know we are being fooled. There's a great stretch of road in Scotland known as "electric brae" where cars will roll uphill under no power. Actually it's downhill but your eyes will never tell you that.

So nobody is saying that those who hear differences aren't actually hearing them. They do say that you need to check your perceptions somehow.

Chris

This is not actually 100% categorically accurate/ true - because sometimes it works in complete reverse.

It happened to me recently where a friend brought over some of his cables to try - I put in one of his cables not expecting anything or for things to probably be worse - I knew nothing about the cable, the brand, didnt know the price or anything.

I listened for a bit - all very good - then went back to my previous cable and instantly then realised / heard the difference in a negative way by comparison - repeated the test and the same was true second time around. This was a very shocking but very useful experience. One good thing about using a processor with a digital display is that you can select the exact same volume everytime.

So in relation to this topic my expectation bias was completely proved wrong by the actual experience of using the unknown product

This is almost a blind test as I knew there was going to be a change but knew nothing about the product being used so had no preconception of what to expect. But know the systems and rooms sonic characeristic extremely well so it was easy to notice the change.

Had I known the cost of the product upfront it possinbly would have affected my expectation bias but I genuinely knew nothing about it

Sorry, but this simply shows that you have no idea as to how expectation bias and proper blind testing works.

What you have described is a perfectly normal sighted test, we can all hear the 'differences' on tests like his.

You think that no-one has ever listened to unkown cables before?

Nope I do fully understand and have done full blind testing and heard consistent differences.

You have twisted this to try and support your arguement which still goes on the same tune regardless. its painful to be involved in, you must have the last word it appears which is fine. Really Pointless

These comments were aimed at a different comment by someone else - the point was even if you are not expecting any difference or the difference to be worse and then you still hear it/ hear an improvement then there cannot be a preconcieved "its going to be better because of price, what I have read etc" bias as thats difinitively not what was being thought when listening...... the resulting self drawn personal conclusion is purely based on the actual experience.

Look, i'm not trying to have a go, but valid blind testing goes to considerable lengths to make sure you do not know what you are listening to. Knowing what you did in the case you describe means that the results are, effectively, meaningless.

I understand that this is a difficult subject and sometimes the realities go against common sense, but if you not even understand the basics it makes a constructive discussion very difficult.

One thing you can be certain of is that anyone who is really confident that he hears differences between cables, has never done a proper blind test.

Had they done so they would understand just how small the differences can be and how difficult it is to reliably identify them. They may be able to hear differences but they would not be at all confident about doing so.

 

[Glacialpath]

Pretty much anything can change perceptions. There is a marketing concept "perception is reality" which basically means that if you can persuade customers that a product has a certain characteristic then you can sell it on that basis whether it does or doesn't actually have it. Interestingly someone posted something about "does what it says on the tin" which is a marketing slogan designed to do exactly that. (The woman who invented the slogan was on Radio 4 the other day.) Skoda had this problem, nobody would believe their cars were any good even when they started to be. They have changed that preception now.

The problem with perceptions is that you believe them because we have the evidence of our senses which is how we live our lives. Sometimes we just don't know we are being fooled. There's a great stretch of road in Scotland known as "electric brae" where cars will roll uphill under no power. Actually it's downhill but your eyes will never tell you that.

So nobody is saying that those who hear differences aren't actually hearing them. They do say that you need to check your perceptions somehow.

Chris

This is not actually 100% categorically accurate/ true - because sometimes it works in complete reverse.

It happened to me recently where a friend brought over some of his cables to try - I put in one of his cables not expecting anything or for things to probably be worse - I knew nothing about the cable, the brand, didnt know the price or anything.

I listened for a bit - all very good - then went back to my previous cable and instantly then realised / heard the difference in a negative way by comparison - repeated the test and the same was true second time around. This was a very shocking but very useful experience. One good thing about using a processor with a digital display is that you can select the exact same volume everytime.

So in relation to this topic my expectation bias was completely proved wrong by the actual experience of using the unknown product

This is almost a blind test as I knew there was going to be a change but knew nothing about the product being used so had no preconception of what to expect. But know the systems and rooms sonic characeristic extremely well so it was easy to notice the change.

Had I known the cost of the product upfront it possinbly would have affected my expectation bias but I genuinely knew nothing about it

Sorry, but this simply shows that you have no idea as to how expectation bias and proper blind testing works.

What you have described is a perfectly normal sighted test, we can all hear the 'differences' on tests like his.

You think that no-one has ever listened to unkown cables before?

Dave again you are not responding to the whole point made. He said that when he went back to his own cable, with his ideas being cables don't make any difference that he then shouldn't hear any difference but things sounded worse against how his mates cables sounded.

I think there should be a rule on these forums. If someone askes about cables to say. On initial demoing people do hear differences better or worse. But if they want to be 100% sure then try and get a Double Blind Test set up and then see if they can hear a difference.

Make it purely a choice but explain what a double blind test is if the person asks. It's the whole making a "statment of fact" that starts the arguments because until evenryone has been privy to a DBT then we like to make up our own mind and not have people ram it down our throats.

Personally if it makes an enjoyable difference then go with it. We can't police people stop them buying any gear until they are 100% it does what they want it too, it kills the whole enjoyment in life.

For the scientific people they will naturally got for some kind of proof beyond what they first hear. For the not so inclined they will just go with what they hear and be happy and for the unsure then they will ask and thats when we can make suggestions to help them make up their own mind.

I don't know if you read one of my other posts as I asked for you to explain to me the whole volume matching process and why it's done as I'm not sure I understand completely.

I know I know. We are all different and who am I to say who we should act on these forums I like others and yourself just get ticked off with the same thing being repeated time and time again.

Also, none of my comments have meant people who can't hear the difference when the partake in a DBT are deaf. My point is people hear differently so it can't be ruled out that a different conclusion might be reached by different people but not hearing a difference doesn't make any one deaf.

 

[Waxy]

There was a young lady named Mabel

Who bought a reference cable

Who knows what she found

When she compared the sound

Cos with no ears she was thus unable

 

[davedotco]

Pretty much anything can change perceptions. There is a marketing concept "perception is reality" which basically means that if you can persuade customers that a product has a certain characteristic then you can sell it on that basis whether it does or doesn't actually have it. Interestingly someone posted something about "does what it says on the tin" which is a marketing slogan designed to do exactly that. (The woman who invented the slogan was on Radio 4 the other day.) Skoda had this problem, nobody would believe their cars were any good even when they started to be. They have changed that preception now.

The problem with perceptions is that you believe them because we have the evidence of our senses which is how we live our lives. Sometimes we just don't know we are being fooled. There's a great stretch of road in Scotland known as "electric brae" where cars will roll uphill under no power. Actually it's downhill but your eyes will never tell you that.

So nobody is saying that those who hear differences aren't actually hearing them. They do say that you need to check your perceptions somehow.

Chris

This is not actually 100% categorically accurate/ true - because sometimes it works in complete reverse.

It happened to me recently where a friend brought over some of his cables to try - I put in one of his cables not expecting anything or for things to probably be worse - I knew nothing about the cable, the brand, didnt know the price or anything.

I listened for a bit - all very good - then went back to my previous cable and instantly then realised / heard the difference in a negative way by comparison - repeated the test and the same was true second time around. This was a very shocking but very useful experience. One good thing about using a processor with a digital display is that you can select the exact same volume everytime.

So in relation to this topic my expectation bias was completely proved wrong by the actual experience of using the unknown product

This is almost a blind test as I knew there was going to be a change but knew nothing about the product being used so had no preconception of what to expect. But know the systems and rooms sonic characeristic extremely well so it was easy to notice the change.

Had I known the cost of the product upfront it possinbly would have affected my expectation bias but I genuinely knew nothing about it

Sorry, but this simply shows that you have no idea as to how expectation bias and proper blind testing works.

What you have described is a perfectly normal sighted test, we can all hear the 'differences' on tests like his.

You think that no-one has ever listened to unkown cables before?

Dave again you are not responding to the whole point made. He said that when he went back to his own cable, with his ideas being cables don't make any difference that he then shouldn't hear any difference but things sounded worse against how his mates cables sounded.

I think there should be a rule on these forums. If someone askes about cables to say. On initial demoing people do hear differences better or worse. But if they want to be 100% sure then try and get a Double Blind Test set up and then see if they can hear a difference.

Make it purely a choice but explain what a double blind test is if the person asks. It's the whole making a "statment of fact" that starts the arguments because until evenryone has been privy to a DBT then we like to make up our own mind and not have people ram it down our throats.

Personally if it makes an enjoyable difference then go with it. We can't police people stop them buying any gear until they are 100% it does what they want it too, it kills the whole enjoyment in life.

For the scientific people they will naturally got for some kind of proof beyond what they first hear. For the not so inclined they will just go with what they hear and be happy and for the unsure then they will ask and thats when we can make suggestions to help them make up their own mind.

I don't know if you read one of my other posts as I asked for you to explain to me the whole volume matching process and why it's done as I'm not sure I understand completely.

I know I know. We are all different and who am I to say who we should act on these forums I like others and yourself just get ticked off with the same thing being repeated time and time again.

Also, none of my comments have meant people who can't hear the difference when the partake in a DBT are deaf. My point is people hear differently so it can't be ruled out that a different conclusion might be reached by different people but not hearing a difference doesn't make any one deaf.

Glacial, in order.

It does not matter what is conciously thought, we are talking about what happens at far deeper levels than that, levels that are far beyond rational control. What he 'thought' is irrelevant, you need to do some research here, both your and ellis's understanding of these matters are deeply flawed.

Once again, no one is suggesting that you should not listen for yourself and make your own mind up. For example, I have detailed in this forum that I have to have my speaker cables the same length and that i do not like sending music signals wirelessly. This is despite blind testing telling me that I am wrong in both cases, yet if I know that these things are part of my system then I am not happy. Subjective preferences are important, just not factually correct.

When carrying out comparative tests it is important that replay volumes are precisely matched. Even a tiny difference will skew the results, in most cases even a tiny increase in volume, one that is in no way percievable as a volume change, will cause detail to be enhanced, soundstages to become better defined etc etc. This is best done with a decent multimeter measuring the voltages at the speaker terminals.

Finally, the weight of evidence over many different blind tests is that no-one can reliably tell the differences between competent cables, there are some positive results where extremes of cable types are used but such comparisons would probably show up as measured differences anyway.

 

[unsleepable]

Regarding the expectation bias when auditioning, the other day I read something which I found very funny:

Beranek’s Law

"It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion."

L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

Look at the year of this publication! And we are still fighting about it.

 

[Glacialpath]

When carrying out comparative tests it is important that replay volumes are precisely matched. Even a tiny difference will skew the results, in most cases even a tiny increase in volume, one that is in no way percievable as a volume change, will cause detail to be enhanced, soundstages to become better defined etc etc. This is best done with a decent multimeter measuring the voltages at the speaker terminals.

Right this is the part that gets me the most. I understand getting rid of any bias that could influence our perception but I'm sorry, applying any change outside of the component being blind tested is totally negates the test in the first place as you are correcting a "change" the cable has made. A volume change greater or smaller by a different cable is a difference. That is the argument. Putting one cable on a system then swapping it for another. Is there any difference better ot worse?

If a cable does allow a slightly louder volume to come out of the speakers against another cable without having to turn up the system then it is doing a better job than the cable that has to have any volume correction applied to it when on said system. The louder cable allows the amp to do it's job more easily and if that's all it is then we need to know why one cable can allow a louder volume?

I proved that my Chord cable allowed more volume than the standard cables when I posted the link to the wave form created by my recording. The only thing that was changed in the whole test was the cable.

I still don't and never will believe these cables should cost shed loads of money and maybe one day I'll find a cheaper cable that is volume matched to the Anthem and I will then kit out my systems with them.

If I ever get to do a blind test I will ensure no volume matching is put in place. Sorry if this infuriates any of you but I'm sure you can see my point.

 

[cheeseboy]

Right this is the part that gets me the most. I understand getting rid of any bias that could influence our perception but I'm sorry, applying any change outside of the component being blind tested is totally negates the test in the first place as you are correcting a "change" the cable has made. A volume change greater or smaller by a different cable is a difference. That is the argument. Putting one cable on a system then swapping it for another. Is there any difference better ot worse?

If a cable does allow a slightly louder volume to come out of the speakers against another cable without having to turn up the system then it is doing a better job than the cable that has to have any volume correction applied to it when on said system. The louder cable allows the amp to do it's job more easily and if that's all it is then we need to know why one cable can allow a louder volume?

I proved that my Chord cable allowed more volume than the standard cables when I posted the link to the wave form created by my recording. The only thing that was changed in the whole test was the cable.

I still don't and never will believe these cables should cost shed loads of money and maybe one day I'll find a cheaper cable that is volume matched to the Anthem and I will then kit out my systems with them.

If I ever get to do a blind test I will ensure no volume matching is put in place. Sorry if this infuriates any of you but I'm sure you can see my point.

nope, sorry. Without sounding rude, which probably means that it will, but please believe me it's not meant to be, if you can't get your head around why volume matching it so important when trying to compare these types of things, then it's a bit of a lost cause and any kind of meaningful testing you are trying to do is flawed, so just ignore these types of tests and just enjoy your music I'd say.

Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[stege]

Cables DO make a difference. Period!

I've had the chance to test home several good quality speaker cables and interconnects (1500E total cost). From Chord, Supra and Oehlbach. From cheap to okish to really expensive (imo). And the differences are there! But to say the more expensive the cable, the better the sound - is an overstatement. Each cable colors the sound differently but I could not say that one is definitely better than the other. Its about preferences. It's like someone would tell you Norah Jones is definitely better than Stacey Kent so you shouldn't even bother with the later.

Its just personal taste.

 

[gwynne61]

About time to give it a rest, this thread is turning into a my dad is bigger than your dad slanging match *stop*

 

[cheeseboy]

About time to give it a rest, this thread is turning into a my dad is bigger than your dad slanging match *stop*

they always do

 

[abacus]

A lower resistance cable will allow a greater volume from the speakers which will give a better sound due to the increased volume; it will not however change the waveforms (Sound) in any way, just the perception of it.

If a person wishes to spend more on a cable to get that slight improvement, then that’s fine, however I would prefer to stick with the original cable and turn the volume up slightly more, which would give identical sound improvement to a change of cable for no cost.

Bill

 

[steve_1979]

About time to give it a rest, this thread is turning into a my dad is bigger than your dad slanging match *stop*

they always do

Why do I still read these threads????

 

[chebby]

About time to give it a rest, this thread is turning into a my dad is bigger than your dad slanging match *stop*

they always do

Why do I still read these threads????

I think a lot of the most vociferous 'contributors' to such threads must have the idea that their next post will be the one that makes everyone think ... "wow, you've really convinced me - with that last post of yours - that i'm wrong and I have always been wrong".

Wildly optimistic of course.

 

[Overdose]

A cable that changes volume? That would be a bad thing.

A cable that changes the sound, ergo changes frequency response? Also a bad thing.

The whole point of a cable is to provide a link between components to transfer a signal as transparently as possible. The cost of 'audiophile' cables of almost any type seems to be an inversley proportional to their ability to achieve this, ie their intended purpose.

Coming at this from a different angle, if you believe that a cable has made some sort of difference, then you also must concede that some type of distortion has been added, for the reasons stated above.

Added distortion will not increase clarity, soundstage or dynamic range, on the contrary in fact. It will not boost any particular frequency, only attenuate (again, not good) and the affects of such a poorly designed cable will almost certainly be inconsistent between various bits of equipment it is attached to.

So, to summarise, in the highly unlikely event that the cable imparts a real and audible effect of the sound of the equipment, it is something to be avoided at all costs. Well, if you're interesed in hifi that is.

 

[steve_1979]

"wow, you've really convinced me - with that last post of yours - that i'm wrong and I have always been wrong".

I might use that as my new forum signature.

 

[Overdose]

About time to give it a rest, this thread is turning into a my dad is bigger than your dad slanging match *stop*

they always do

Why do I still read these threads????

I think a lot of the most vociferous 'contributors' to such threads must have the idea that their next post will be the one that makes everyone think ... "wow, you've really convinced me - with that last post of yours - that i'm wrong and I have always been wrong".

Wildly optimistic of course.

..and yet, here we all are. Bored, but still chipping in. So not really that disinterested enough so as not to comment.

 

[chebby]

About time to give it a rest, this thread is turning into a my dad is bigger than your dad slanging match *stop*

they always do

Why do I still read these threads????

I think a lot of the most vociferous 'contributors' to such threads must have the idea that their next post will be the one that makes everyone think ... "wow, you've really convinced me - with that last post of yours - that i'm wrong and I have always been wrong".

Wildly optimistic of course.

..and yet, here we all are. Bored, but still chipping in. So not really that disinterested enough so as not to comment.

Fights do have a certain magnetic appeal even if you aren't bothered about what is being fought over.

 

[davedotco]

About time to give it a rest, this thread is turning into a my dad is bigger than your dad slanging match *stop*

Actually it is just getting interesting.......*preved*

 

[davedotco]

When carrying out comparative tests it is important that replay volumes are precisely matched. Even a tiny difference will skew the results, in most cases even a tiny increase in volume, one that is in no way percievable as a volume change, will cause detail to be enhanced, soundstages to become better defined etc etc. This is best done with a decent multimeter measuring the voltages at the speaker terminals.

Right this is the part that gets me the most. I understand getting rid of any bias that could influence our perception but I'm sorry, applying any change outside of the component being blind tested is totally negates the test in the first place as you are correcting a "change" the cable has made. A volume change greater or smaller by a different cable is a difference. That is the argument. Putting one cable on a system then swapping it for another. Is there any difference better ot worse?

If a cable does allow a slightly louder volume to come out of the speakers against another cable without having to turn up the system then it is doing a better job than the cable that has to have any volume correction applied to it when on said system. The louder cable allows the amp to do it's job more easily and if that's all it is then we need to know why one cable can allow a louder volume?

I proved that my Chord cable allowed more volume than the standard cables when I posted the link to the wave form created by my recording. The only thing that was changed in the whole test was the cable.

I still don't and never will believe these cables should cost shed loads of money and maybe one day I'll find a cheaper cable that is volume matched to the Anthem and I will then kit out my systems with them.

If I ever get to do a blind test I will ensure no volume matching is put in place. Sorry if this infuriates any of you but I'm sure you can see my point.

OK.

This is an interesting point, one that causes debate among testers.

If you substitute the cables without any change in the settings then, providing the cables are roughly of the same type and construction then there is some merit in the argument.

However were you to compare cables of different types, ie balanced v unbalanced, screened v unscreened, symetrical v coaxial, directional v non-directional etc then it is not quite so clear cut and the default reaction is to level match. Ideally such matching should take into account any frequency response variations but this is really rather difficult.

As others have pointed out, cables that are deliberately engineered to sound different propably do so by manipulating the frequency or phase response of the cable and in some cases using excessive capacitance or inductance to modify the frequency extremes. Ie adding distortion.

This can get pretty complex and frankly a bit tedious which is why I never advocate getting involved in rigourously designed blind testing, the repititions become boring and even I find some of the statistical analysis difficult.

However, simple listening tests, when carried out blind and level matched (preferably by an unknown operator) are a wonderful way of getting a handle on just how difficult telling these differences are with the visual clues removed, a real eye opener, if you forgive the phrase.

 

[steve_1979]

About time to give it a rest, this thread is turning into a my dad is bigger than your dad slanging match *stop*

they always do

Why do I still read these threads????

I think a lot of the most vociferous 'contributors' to such threads must have the idea that their next post will be the one that makes everyone think ... "wow, you've really convinced me - with that last post of yours - that i'm wrong and I have always been wrong".

Wildly optimistic of course.

..and yet, here we all are. Bored, but still chipping in. So not really that disinterested enough so as not to comment.

Cable threads are the HiFi forum equivalent of watching EastEnders.