Interconnects - Law of Diminishing Returns??

[CnoEvil]

But none of it rational.......*unknw*

It is to those doing it....and therein lies the rub.

 

[JoelSim]

I can't be bothered to read through all 125 posts, but I imagine I know what the discussion has been about.

If you want to buy some interconnects, do so. Even if nothing else it will make you feel better.

I personally am a fan of upgrading interconnects.

 

[davedotco]

I can't be bothered to read through all 125 posts, but I imagine I know what the discussion has been about.

If you want to buy some interconnects, do so. Even if nothing else it will make you feel better.

I personally am a fan of upgrading interconnects.

This is actually a serious and important point.

I have spoken in other threads how I need to have my speaker cables the same length, if they are not I hear a skewed soundstage. When tested blind, this disappears, it is the fact of 'knowing' that is the issue.

Therefore any passive system I build for myself will allways have cables the same length, nothing to worry about, so no problems.

 

[CnoEvil]

I can't be bothered to read through all 125 posts, but I imagine I know what the discussion has been about.

If you want to buy some interconnects, do so. Even if nothing else it will make you feel better.

I personally am a fan of upgrading interconnects.

This is actually a serious and important point.

It's just the Cable Threads that make you feel worse. *bad*

 

[JoelSim]

I can't be bothered to read through all 125 posts, but I imagine I know what the discussion has been about.

If you want to buy some interconnects, do so. Even if nothing else it will make you feel better.

I personally am a fan of upgrading interconnects.

This is actually a serious and important point.

It's just the Cable Threads that make you feel worse. *bad*

Not if the cable threads are braided and cryogenically treated *angel*

 

[Native_bon]

I will tell you one thing for sure about cables. They do make alot of difference untill you blind test them that is..*boredom*

 

[hifikrazy]

I will tell you one thing for sure about cables. They do make alot of difference untill you blind test them that is..*boredom*

Geez, enough of the freaking blind testing already. Talk about flogging a dead horse. Get a life.

 

[Glacialpath]

I will tell you one thing for sure about cables. They do make alot of difference untill you blind test them that is..*boredom*

Geez, enough of the freaking blind testing already. Talk about flogging a dead horse. Get a life.

Don't worry mate I'm sure these blind testing freaks blind test everything to see if it is actually what it says on the tin and can't seem to hack people that can actually notice change in the first instance.

To me I think it's because their senses just don't work so well when they take the most effective one away or take it out of the equasion thus think what was different with all their senses isn't.

Granted people who lose one of their senses usually means the others become more sesitive but that's over time.

 

[davedotco]

I will tell you one thing for sure about cables. They do make alot of difference untill you blind test them that is..*boredom*

Geez, enough of the freaking blind testing already. Talk about flogging a dead horse. Get a life.

Don't worry mate I'm sure these blind testing freaks blind test everything to see if it is actually what it says on the tin and can't seem to hack people that can actually notice change in the first instance.

To me I think it's because their senses just don't work so well when they take the most effective one away or take it out of the equasion thus think what was different with all their senses isn't.

Granted people who lose one of their senses usually means the others become more sesitive but that's over time.

If you can get away with calling other contributers deaf, can I get away with calling you ignorant and ill informed?

You really do not have a clue about this stuff at all, do you?

 

[ellisdj]

always gets personal in the end....

It is annoying that people have to keep going on to defend the status that cables make no difference. They use the same spiel time and time just the same as someone who hears a difference and uses comments like - "more, open, more space" that gets discredited.

One / Two comments about it is enough - they should accept anothers choice / option to test for themself or accept that someone makes a recommendation based on their experience - blind tested or not.

Then these threads would be useful to people as it would be full of suggestions for people to investigate for themself which is what the hobby is all about - it keeps it fresh and interesting.

System Cost is partly irrelevant to getting good sound if other factors are not addressed and the vast majority dont actually know what good sound is - which is also irrelevant as its whats good to them thats important - their own reference

If all could actually hear very good sound then things would be different but this is extremely diffcult to do - very few places have the facilities - I have only seen 1 place thats the review rooms of this mag/website.

 

[davedotco]

always gets personal in the end....

It is annoying that people have to keep going on to defend the status that cables make no difference. They use the same spiel time and time just the same as someone who hears a difference and uses comments like - "more, open, more space" that gets discredited.

One / Two comments about it is enough - they should accept anothers choice / option to test for themself or accept that someone makes a recommendation based on their experience - blind tested or not.

Then these threads would be useful to people as it would be full of suggestions for people to investigate for themself which is what the hobby is all about - it keeps it fresh and interesting.

System Cost is partly irrelevant to getting good sound if other factors are not addressed and the vast majority dont actually know what good sound is - which is also irrelevant as its whats good to them thats important - their own reference

If all could actually hear very good sound then things would be different but this is extremely diffcult to do - very few places have the facilities - I have only seen 1 place thats the review rooms of this mag/website.

No one has the slightest problem in people trying different cables and reporting what they hear. We can all make our own judgemends on the validity or otherwise of those opinions and, in many cases, enjoy the story.

The problem comes when these opinions are expressed as facts, which they are not, they are subjective opinions.

Even worse, should someone point this out, or disagree in some other way, he is accused of being deaf, or a freak or not not knowing what a good system sounds like.

Do you understand now?

 

[ellisdj]

Your being personal again having a pop at me by reading your comments and you missed my point.

If all had access to very good sound then they would know what very good sound is and it could then be the target to aim for at home with their own system etc

99% of people (thats me included) dont have access to the right facilities to allow for this - Its not easy getting access to a room purely dedicated and treated for audio playback.

Its always a subjective opinion that you will read and I think the majority are aware and accept that.

 

[davedotco]

Your being personal again having a pop at me by reading your comments and you missed my point.

If all had access to very good sound then they would know what very good sound is and it could then be the target to aim for at home with their own system etc

99% of people (thats me included) dont have access to the right facilities to allow for this - Its not easy getting access to a room purely dedicated and treated for audio playback.

Its always a subjective opinion that you will read and I think the majority are aware and accept that.

I 'had a pop' at anyone who adopts the "you are deaf" or "you don't know what a good sound is" approach.

If this does not apply to you then there is no offence.

The really crazy thing about this debate is the basic missunderstanding of 'cable believers', they appear to think that the rest of us do not hear the differences that they hear.

The reality is that we do hear the differences when listening in sighted tests, well most of us anyway. However the difference is that some of us have done blind tests or checked out the psychology of hearing and understand that most of these differences are illusory and in a proper level matched, blind test, clear differences audible in sighted tests effectively disappear.

Does this men that all cables (interconnects in this case) sound the same? Possibly not, but accurately adjusting levels and removing the visual clues shows just how difficult it is to reliably pick different cables. It is difficult to explain to someone who has not taken part in such a test, unless you have actually done it it is very difficult to believe.

There is tons of evidence on blind testing that backs up my statements, but scientific method and statistical analysis is simply not believed for some reason.

 

[Glacialpath]

I will tell you one thing for sure about cables. They do make alot of difference untill you blind test them that is..*boredom*

Geez, enough of the freaking blind testing already. Talk about flogging a dead horse. Get a life.

Don't worry mate I'm sure these blind testing freaks blind test everything to see if it is actually what it says on the tin and can't seem to hack people that can actually notice change in the first instance.

To me I think it's because their senses just don't work so well when they take the most effective one away or take it out of the equasion thus think what was different with all their senses isn't.

Granted people who lose one of their senses usually means the others become more sesitive but that's over time.

If you can get away with calling other contributers deaf, can I get away with calling you ignorant and ill informed?

You really do not have a clue about this stuff at all, do you?

Well if I had actually said other forum users are deaf then yes you could put that but I didn't say that so no you can't. Sorry Dave.

 

[davedotco]

I will tell you one thing for sure about cables. They do make alot of difference untill you blind test them that is..*boredom*

Geez, enough of the freaking blind testing already. Talk about flogging a dead horse. Get a life.

Don't worry mate I'm sure these blind testing freaks blind test everything to see if it is actually what it says on the tin and can't seem to hack people that can actually notice change in the first instance.

To me I think it's because their senses just don't work so well when they take the most effective one away or take it out of the equasion thus think what was different with all their senses isn't.

Granted people who lose one of their senses usually means the others become more sesitive but that's over time.

Really....?

 

[Glacialpath]

always gets personal in the end....

It is annoying that people have to keep going on to defend the status that cables make no difference. They use the same spiel time and time just the same as someone who hears a difference and uses comments like - "more, open, more space" that gets discredited.

One / Two comments about it is enough - they should accept anothers choice / option to test for themself or accept that someone makes a recommendation based on their experience - blind tested or not.

Then these threads would be useful to people as it would be full of suggestions for people to investigate for themself which is what the hobby is all about - it keeps it fresh and interesting.

System Cost is partly irrelevant to getting good sound if other factors are not addressed and the vast majority dont actually know what good sound is - which is also irrelevant as its whats good to them thats important - their own reference

If all could actually hear very good sound then things would be different but this is extremely diffcult to do - very few places have the facilities - I have only seen 1 place thats the review rooms of this mag/website.

No one has the slightest problem in people trying different cables and reporting what they hear. We can all make our own judgemends on the validity or otherwise of those opinions and, in many cases, enjoy the story.

The problem comes when these opinions are expressed as facts, which they are not, they are subjective opinions.

Even worse, should someone point this out, or disagree in some other way, he is accused of being deaf, or a freak or not not knowing what a good system sounds like.

Do you understand now?

Dave you guys stating that once blind testing has been done with said object that we would all not be able to tell the difference thus stating a supposed fact!

You agree that all of us experiance different things. Science doesn't prove everything because science is a designed concept. A very worthwhile one at that don't get me wrong. But you scientiffic people really hate other people saying the contrary. This is what gets our ghoat like us stating we can hear differences gets your ghoat so what you just said is a contradiction.

 

[Glacialpath]

I 'had a pop' at anyone who adopts the "you are deaf" or "you don't know what a good sound is" approach.

If this does not apply to you then there is no offence.

The really crazy thing about this debate is the basic missunderstanding of 'cable believers', they appear to think that the rest of us do not hear the differences that they hear.

The reality is that we do hear the differences when listening in sighted tests, well most of us anyway. However the difference is that some of us have done blind tests or checked out the psychology of hearing and understand that most of these differences are illusory and in a proper level matched, blind test, clear differences audible in sighted tests effectively disappear.

Does this men that all cables (interconnects in this case) sound the same? Possibly not, but accurately adjusting levels and removing the visual clues shows just how difficult it is to reliably pick different cables. It is difficult to explain to someone who has not taken part in such a test, unless you have actually done it it is very difficult to believe.

There is tons of evidence on blind testing that backs up my statements, but scientific method and statistical analysis is simply not believed for some reason.

Who's calling people Deaf on here? They shouldn't of course, its not nice but I can understand the frustration when you guys keep ramming blind testing down our throats when you could something like "having done scentific tests I found cables make no difference" but some of you have to say things like "I'll tell you what a difference cables can make, none if you blind test them" (I know you didn't say that Dave) this is the kind of thing that starts these agressive comments.

Let me put this to you and all other Blind testers. If the knowledge of cables being changed can influence our perseption. Can the knowledge you are going to do a blind test to determin if cables make a difference influence our perseption in the opposite manor?

 

[davedotco]

Glacial, calm down and stop making things up.

I have never said that cables make no difference or all sound the same. In fact just a few posts above I suggest that they "possibly do", a view that I have expressed many times in different ways.

All that I have ever said is that in level matched, blind tests it is extremely difficult to reliably tell the difference between cables (in this case interconnects) and that anybody who has had experience of such a test will have a much revised view on the validity of sighted tests. They may still 'hear' the differences, but understand why they do so and that it may have little to do with the cables themselves.

All the scientifically carried out tests show this to be the case but you dismiss science out of hand. On occasions you claim exception levels of hearing acuity but have never had this tested and yes, you do insult those who have the temerity to challenge you.

 

[Covenanter]

Pretty much anything can change perceptions. There is a marketing concept "perception is reality" which basically means that if you can persuade customers that a product has a certain characteristic then you can sell it on that basis whether it does or doesn't actually have it. Interestingly someone posted something about "does what it says on the tin" which is a marketing slogan designed to do exactly that. (The woman who invented the slogan was on Radio 4 the other day.) Skoda had this problem, nobody would believe their cars were any good even when they started to be. They have changed that preception now.

The problem with perceptions is that you believe them because we have the evidence of our senses which is how we live our lives. Sometimes we just don't know we are being fooled. There's a great stretch of road in Scotland known as "electric brae" where cars will roll uphill under no power. Actually it's downhill but your eyes will never tell you that.

So nobody is saying that those who hear differences aren't actually hearing them. They do say that you need to check your perceptions somehow.

Chris

 

[Glacialpath]

Glacial, calm down and stop making things up.

I have never said that cables make no difference or all sound the same. In fact just a few posts above I suggest that they "possibly do", a view that I have expressed many times in different ways.

All that I have ever said is that in level matched, blind tests it is extremely difficult to reliably tell the difference between cables (in this case interconnects) and that anybody who has had experience of such a test will have a much revised view on the validity of sighted tests. They may still 'hear' the differences, but understand why they do so and that it may have little to do with the cables themselves.

All the scientifically carried out tests show this to be the case but you dismiss science out of hand. On occasions you claim exception levels of hearing acuity but have never had this tested and yes, you do insult those who have the temerity to challenge you.

My comments weren't directed totally at you mate. I get the impression you are a little on the fence because yes I did read and have read before that you say some cables could make a difference. I know you are kind of defending all the other blind tests which is cool.

I'm sorry you read my posts and take from them I dismiss science. I don't at all. I have said elsewhere that I don't dismiss the findings of blind testing.

I'm just reminding you guys there is 2 sides to everything. And yes if we all got to do a blind test no doubt most of us would change our views. Even me if I did one and came to the same results you lot have come to.

What am I making up?

Also can you explain the level matching please. Does it mean changing the volume on a system to match the audio level each cable outputs?

 

[davedotco]

Pretty much anything can change perceptions. There is a marketing concept "perception is reality" which basically means that if you can persuade customers that a product has a certain characteristic then you can sell it on that basis whether it does or doesn't actually have it. Interestingly someone posted something about "does what it says on the tin" which is a marketing slogan designed to do exactly that. (The woman who invented the slogan was on Radio 4 the other day.) Skoda had this problem, nobody would believe their cars were any good even when they started to be. They have changed that preception now.

The problem with perceptions is that you believe them because we have the evidence of our senses which is how we live our lives. Sometimes we just don't know we are being fooled. There's a great stretch of road in Scotland known as "electric brae" where cars will roll uphill under no power. Actually it's downhill but your eyes will never tell you that.

So nobody is saying that those who hear differences aren't actually hearing them. They do say that you need to check your perceptions somehow.

Chris

Exactly.

And one of the best ways to check your perceptions in the hi-fi world is to take a blind test.

If nothing else it will give you a reasonable reference point to how large or small these differences are without the visual clues. You will never be quite as confident with the results of sighted tests again, even if you are the one doing the tests.

 

[ellisdj]

Pretty much anything can change perceptions. There is a marketing concept "perception is reality" which basically means that if you can persuade customers that a product has a certain characteristic then you can sell it on that basis whether it does or doesn't actually have it. Interestingly someone posted something about "does what it says on the tin" which is a marketing slogan designed to do exactly that. (The woman who invented the slogan was on Radio 4 the other day.) Skoda had this problem, nobody would believe their cars were any good even when they started to be. They have changed that preception now.

The problem with perceptions is that you believe them because we have the evidence of our senses which is how we live our lives. Sometimes we just don't know we are being fooled. There's a great stretch of road in Scotland known as "electric brae" where cars will roll uphill under no power. Actually it's downhill but your eyes will never tell you that.

So nobody is saying that those who hear differences aren't actually hearing them. They do say that you need to check your perceptions somehow.

Chris

This is not actually 100% categorically accurate/ true - because sometimes it works in complete reverse.

It happened to me recently where a friend brought over some of his cables to try - I put in one of his cables not expecting anything or for things to probably be worse - I knew nothing about the cable, the brand, didnt know the price or anything.

I listened for a bit - all very good - then went back to my previous cable and instantly then realised / heard the difference in a negative way by comparison - repeated the test and the same was true second time around. This was a very shocking but very useful experience. One good thing about using a processor with a digital display is that you can select the exact same volume everytime.

So in relation to this topic my expectation bias was completely proved wrong by the actual experience of using the unknown product

This is almost a blind test as I knew there was going to be a change but knew nothing about the product being used so had no preconception of what to expect. But know the systems and rooms sonic characeristic extremely well so it was easy to notice the change.

Had I known the cost of the product upfront it possinbly would have affected my expectation bias but I genuinely knew nothing about it

 

[Glacialpath]

That is very true Chris. I know marketing is partly designed to play on our minds. Most of the time I see through it and don't pass judgement till I have tried myself no matter how much people tell me.

I know I seem to come across as dismissing science or the fact the placebo effect can and does fool us. I don't, I fully understand it all.

I bet that road in Scotland is mind bending. Unfortunately some people do claim that we aren't hearing a difference. If it's tongue in cheek then it doesn't come across that way and it causes arguments.

 

[Overdose]

The two sides to this argument are...

1. Backed up by factual and scientific evidence.

2. Not backed up in any meaningful way, relying on anecdotes.

*bye*

 

[Glacialpath]

Better put.

1. Scentific tests invented by us showing we don't trust our senses.

2. trusting our senses and being happy with it.

Both valid in my mind.