Interconnects - Law of Diminishing Returns??

[Covenanter]

I wholeheartedly agree. Anyone who has visited a Greek island will understand that you can't get a 4" turd down a 2" drain. So it is with speaker cables! Use copper and lots of it so that as much voltage as possible appears across the speakers and as little as possible across the cables. There are no baskets on hand for the toilet paper so use as wide a pipe as you can.

Admittedly my hearing is not the most sophisticated in the world but I can't hear the difference between ordinary thick copper wire and very expensive speaker cable, and neither, I should imagine would most people. Hifi has always been the territory of 'kings new suit of clothes syndrome' and there is an army of people out there ready to prey on the gullible.

The only approach that might help, in my view, is to use Litz wire where every strand is insulated from its neighbours. At high freuencies the electrical signal travels down the outer parts of a wire (known as the skin effect). I don't know how significant this effect is a 20kHz which will be the limit for the youngest among you, but it could conceivably make a difference to both those people and the household pets. By having lots of individual paths in a great number of skins you increase the cross-sectional area of the cable for higher frequencies. We use this cable in the high frequency inverter transformers where I work to reduce lossesin the winding resistance.

Foolishly and in view of the price, I had always imagined that speaker cable was of this construction but it would be seriously expensive and I can see now that it is not (as far as I know).

Thick copper is the route I take and will continue so to do

Skin effects and the like are almost non-existent at audio frequencies. So I agree ordinary thick copper is fine.

Chris

 

[Tannoyed]

I have just re-read 10. If by 'interconnect' you mean phono to phono leads etc, the only requirement is as little capacitance as possible and good screening, including the plug caps, unless of course you enjoy listening to offerings from the electrical supply industry! Don't waste money on expensive leads of any kind. HDMI springs to mind as being a spectacular rip-off in recent years.

CPC do some excellent leads at low price. (Combined Precision Components- a part of Farnell). No I don't work for them!

 

[Frank Harvey]

A lot of the debates with cables could be cleared up if Hi Fi manufacturers engaged cable manufactures to produce speaker cable that was the same as the cable used inside the speakers cabinets; or interconnects that were designed to pass through the same (undistorted) signal from the source to a matching amp etc.

There's a few speaker manufacturers that will wire a speaker with whatever cable the customer wants (obviously not mass produced production line stuff).

 

[Gazzip]

Who are the flat earthers exactly? Those who are prepared to open up to the idea that maybe, just maybe, we don't know everything yet about how electricity, (or a soundwave within an electrical current), flows, or those who say No! No! No! No!

I have a high end system and I tell you that there are differences between cables that can easily be heard if the other equipment in your chain is revealing enough. Better or worse is debatable, but different? Most certainly.

As for the nonsense that some on here spout about recording studios and the professional music industry using £0.99 interconnects in their setups, I can tell you from personal experience that this is complete and utter rubbish.

 

[davedotco]

Who are the flat earthers exactly? Those who are prepared to open up to the idea that maybe, just maybe, we don't know everything yet about how electricity, (or a soundwave within an electrical current), flows, or those who say No! No! No! No!

I have a high end system and I tell you that there are differences between cables that can easily be heard if the other equipment in your chain is revealing enough. Better or worse is debatable, but different? Most certainly.

As for the nonsense that some on here spout about recording studios and the professional music industry using £0.99 interconnects in their setups, I can tell you from personal experience that this is complete and utter rubbish.

Ah, the old 'my system is better than your system' argument......*wacko*

What you, and many enthusiasts like you fail to understand is that, in similar circumstances, many sceptics (flat earthers?) have done similar tests and heard the same differences that you describe and done so time and time again.

However they are sufficiantly knowledgeable to understand that psyco-acoustics is a complex subject and what you hear is not always what you think it is.

The only "rubbish" here is the assertion that we can not hear the differences in such comparisons, we do.

 

[Covenanter]

Who are the flat earthers exactly? Those who are prepared to open up to the idea that maybe, just maybe, we don't know everything yet about how electricity, (or a soundwave within an electrical current), flows, or those who say No! No! No! No!

I have a high end system and I tell you that there are differences between cables that can easily be heard if the other equipment in your chain is revealing enough. Better or worse is debatable, but different? Most certainly.

As for the nonsense that some on here spout about recording studios and the professional music industry using £0.99 interconnects in their setups, I can tell you from personal experience that this is complete and utter rubbish.

What exactly does "soundwave within an electrical current" mean?

I'm pleased that you have a "high end system" but I don't think this gives you golden ears.

I'm sure you have heard differences but that is meaningless as evidence. If you can hear a difference in a double-blind test I'll take some notice but otherwise I'm afraid not.

Chris

 

[ISAC69]

Cables thread again .....

 

[Overdose]

A lot of the debates with cables could be cleared up if Hi Fi manufacturers engaged cable manufactures to produce speaker cable that was the same as the cable used inside the speakers cabinets; or interconnects that were designed to pass through the same (undistorted) signal from the source to a matching amp etc.

There really is no need. Simple multistrand OFC cable of sufficient gauge is all that is needed for a completely audibly transparent transmission of an audio signal.

In addition, in most cases, speaker cable gauge is far in excess of that which is used for internal wiring in speakers and amplifiers.

It's all simple science stuff that has been long known about and fully understood for quite some time now, around two hundred years in fact.

Not aimed at you personally, but there are some that are either ignorant of the facts or have a vested interest in avoiding them, neither stance is helpful, but at least the ignorant have the option to educate themselves, if the will is there.

 

[Overdose]

Who are the flat earthers exactly? Those who are prepared to open up to the idea that maybe, just maybe, we don't know everything yet about how electricity, (or a soundwave within an electrical current), flows, or those who say No! No! No! No!

Quite clearly it's news to you, but ohms law (That's the two hundered year old stuff I mentioned in the previous post) pretty much covers most of what goes on in a conductor carrying an audio signal.

 

[CnoEvil]

Where's Colin Wonfor when you need him? *mail1*

 

[davedotco]

Who are the flat earthers exactly? Those who are prepared to open up to the idea that maybe, just maybe, we don't know everything yet about how electricity, (or a soundwave within an electrical current), flows, or those who say No! No! No! No!

Quite clearly it's news to you, but ohms law (That's the two hundered year old stuff I mentioned in the previous post) pretty much covers most of what goes on in a conductor carrying an audio signal.

Whilst I agree with gist of what you are trying to say, Ohms law deals with dc, a music signal is of course ac.

This brings inductance and capacitance into play and under certain conditions this will, among other things, alter the frequency response of a cable.

That said, in any properly constructed audio cable, the effects will be minimal, or less.

 

[JMac]

I appreciate that I'm posting this in ignorance of electrical theory but surely all the varieties and design of both RCA and speaker cable cant just be smoke and mirrors? Otherwise why does the likes of WHF review them and award them varying marks and awards, are they just happy to keep the market ticking along for the manufacturers?

If there really is no audible difference between a £5.99 per metre OFC cable and a £100 p/m one, is it really all down to the placebo effect and snobbery?

 

[CnoEvil]

I appreciate that I'm posting this in ignorance of electrical theory but surely all the varieties and design of both RCA and speaker cable cant just be smoke and mirrors? Otherwise why does the likes of WHF review them and award them varying marks and awards, are they just happy to keep the market ticking along for the manufacturers?

If there really is no audible difference between a £5.99 per metre OFC cable and a £100 p/m one, is it really all down to the placebo effect and snobbery?

I summed up the situation in my first post..........ignore the rhetoric from both sides and make your own mind up.

 

[Overdose]

Who are the flat earthers exactly? Those who are prepared to open up to the idea that maybe, just maybe, we don't know everything yet about how electricity, (or a soundwave within an electrical current), flows, or those who say No! No! No! No!

Quite clearly it's news to you, but ohms law (That's the two hundered year old stuff I mentioned in the previous post) pretty much covers most of what goes on in a conductor carrying an audio signal.

Whilst I agree with gist of what you are trying to say, Ohms law deals with dc, a music signal is of course ac.

This brings inductance and capacitance into play and under certain conditions this will, among other things, alter the frequency response of a cable.

That said, in any properly constructed audio cable, the effects will be minimal, or less.

The calculations for the three main components remain the same, with Z being used for impedance, rather than R for resistance. The final calculations for straight copper wire will be essentially the same, with inductance and capacitance of such a conductor being negligible and the effects inaudible.

Incompetent design and deliberate creation of capacitive and/or inductive cables will be the causes of any differences between cables. None of these situations are desirable as the audio signal has been altered in some way, but misinformation fools many people and so an expensive or cleverly marketed cable that displays these inherent 'faults', will cause a difference to be heard and for it to be perceived as an improvement.

Of course, given various cables of an equally competent (and basic) design as a multistrand twisted type, will reveal no actual audible differences, regardless of cost or clever marketing Here, the 'differences' are entirely placebo.

 

[davedotco]

I appreciate that I'm posting this in ignorance of electrical theory but surely all the varieties and design of both RCA and speaker cable cant just be smoke and mirrors? Otherwise why does the likes of WHF review them and award them varying marks and awards, are they just happy to keep the market ticking along for the manufacturers?

If there really is no audible difference between a £5.99 per metre OFC cable and a £100 p/m one, is it really all down to the placebo effect and snobbery?

Ok. I understand that view, as always there are several factors at work here.

Firstly competent, well made cables that are 'effectively transparent' can be built at modest cost. There are plenty of such cables available and they all sound pretty much identical.

There are some cables that are poorly made in different ways, they will sound 'different' and will generally be percieved as less good, There are usually sound technical reasons why this is the case.

Then there are some cables that are deliberately designed to alter the sound, usually by frequency reponse or phase variations, if priced and presented appropriately these differences will be viewed as improvements.

However the vast majority of compedently designed interconnects and speaker cables are, under controlled conditions, indistinquishable one from another.

Most of the differences we hear when 'just trying cables' is down to expectation bias placebo effect and the rest. This does not mean that all cables sound the same, just that the difference between compedent designs when tested blind is minute.

 

[adamrobertshaw]

My music set ups all have silver plated cables. The Monitor Audio Pureflow I bought was specifically because it was used internally on the RX2 I was using at the time.

But these cables are now wired up to my PMC. PMC recommend to simply use pure copper cable of sufficient gauge, as they didn't spend ages tuning the speakers so customers could then balls it up with exotic speaker cables.

50% of the hi-fi dealers I use say always use pure copper as silver plate is too bright.

The other 50% only stock silver plate as it has better conductivity and is slower to oxidise.

And in the case of pure copper cables (if not all cables), surely the oxidisation issue isn't a problem if the cables are sealed properly at the terminations?

 

[JMac]

I appreciate that I'm posting this in ignorance of electrical theory but surely all the varieties and design of both RCA and speaker cable cant just be smoke and mirrors? Otherwise why does the likes of WHF review them and award them varying marks and awards, are they just happy to keep the market ticking along for the manufacturers?

If there really is no audible difference between a £5.99 per metre OFC cable and a £100 p/m one, is it really all down to the placebo effect and snobbery?

Ok. I understand that view, as always there are several factors at work here.

Firstly competent, well made cables that are 'effectively transparent' can be built at modest cost. There are plenty of such cables available and they all sound pretty much identical.

There are some cables that are poorly made in different ways, they will sound 'different' and will generally be percieved as less good, There are usually sound technical reasons why this is the case.

Then there are some cables that are deliberately designed to alter the sound, usually by frequency reponse or phase variations, if priced and presented appropriately these differences will be viewed as improvements.

However the vast majority of compedently designed interconnects and speaker cables are, under controlled conditions, indistinquishable one from another.

Most of the differences we hear when 'just trying cables' is down to expectation bias placebo effect and the rest. This does not mean that all cables sound the same, just that the difference between compedent designs when tested blind is minute.

Gotcha, and I tend to agree. Once you have a sufficient gauge of pure copper sufficiently shielded to transmit the signal as the amp outputs it, anything else that is audible is going to be distortion or perhaps 'manipulation' might be more suited. Whether that manipulation sounds beneficial or not is likely to be down to the listener.

I suppose that leads me to ask how do I identify those that transmit a 'pure' sound and those that alter it in someway ?

 

[pixa]

*biggrin*

 

[Covenanter]

I appreciate that I'm posting this in ignorance of electrical theory but surely all the varieties and design of both RCA and speaker cable cant just be smoke and mirrors? Otherwise why does the likes of WHF review them and award them varying marks and awards, are they just happy to keep the market ticking along for the manufacturers?

If there really is no audible difference between a £5.99 per metre OFC cable and a £100 p/m one, is it really all down to the placebo effect and snobbery?

To answer your first question, WHiFi and the other mags make money out of making HiFi as esoteric as possible. Who would buy the mags if in essence they said "there isn't much difference"? Which is why WHiFi refuse to take part in double-blind tests - they know they would fail to discern any major differences.

To answer your second question - largely yes.

Chris

 

[unsleepable]

I think it was Hi-Fi Choice that recently published a comparison of different sets of interconnects and speaker cables, claiming that synergy was better when they were all from the same vendor. According to them, the results were obtained in blind tests.

I think this question of what cables are made to not alter the sound in any way actually makes a lot of sense. I believe in cables changing the sound the same way I believe in witches—they shouldn't be, but just in case it's better to stay away from them.

 

[JMac]

Ah, but witches DO exist . Whether they have any 'power' or ability to change things is the real issue

 

[andyjm]

50% of the hi-fi dealers I use say always use pure copper as silver plate is too bright.

The other 50% only stock silver plate as it has better conductivity and is slower to oxidise.

Then at least 50% of the hifi dealers you use have no idea what they are talking about.

Silver is a better conductor than copper by volume, but aluminium is a better conductor by weight - one of the reasons they use aluminium with a steel core for overheard power cables.

So what's the magic that makes silver plated cables 'bright'? Some half baked analysis that because of skin effect, the higher frequencies travel closer to the cable surface and therefore in the lower resistance silver. What you thought was a simple cable, is in fact a high pass filter! Who knew?

All well and true, except that at audio frequencies skin effect is negligable, and even if it was significant, the thin silver plating on the cable is insufficient to have any impact.

So given that the effect is balderdash, why does it persisit in forums like this? I guess because silver is bright and shiny and copper is dull and warm, it gives Hifi dealers something to talk about when justifying their cable pricing. It certainly has nothing to do with the performance of the cable.

As for oxidisation, any decent connection should be gas-tight, and oxidation should not be a problem. When was the last time you went around your house taking the wall sockets off the wall and cleaning the oxide off the end of the mains cabling? You haven't.

 

[ISAC69]

I think it was Hi-Fi Choice that recently published a comparison of different sets of interconnects and speaker cables, claiming that synergy was better when they were all from the same vendor. According to them, the results were obtained in blind tests.

I think this question of what cables are made to not alter the sound in any way actually makes a lot of sense. I believe in cables changing the sound the same way I believe in witches—they shouldn't be, but just in case it's better to stay away from them.

Good cables are not made to alter the sound (!!!) but to be more transparent , natural and precise so your system can

perfrom at its best potential , Good cables do it but bad cables do alter the sound such

as uncontrol bass , less details , unstable soundstage act.

 

[adamrobertshaw]

Just looking at what my two dealers of choice stock.

QED 79 @ £2.25 (copper), QED Micro Silver @ £4.20, QED Silver Anniversary XT @ £6.95 and VDH CH122 Hybrid @ £22.00 (silver)

The other stocks ...

Chord Company, nearly all silver plate. All copper Signature Reference at £800!!

QED, nearly all silver plate. Very similar in price, all very similar in construction.

VDH Sky Track that is carbon coated!!, and Tea Track that is silver coated.

So in the main, you go in and ask for some speaker cable, and unless you know what you're looking for, there's about a 90% chance you'll get a silver plated cable. Clearly this is what the cable manufacturers are producing and therefore it is what the dealers are selling.

 

[Glacialpath]

Let me ask all you double blind testers this. How many of you listen to Heavy Metal, Death Metal or Black Metal? The most dense and perpousfuly distorted music, the biggest challange for any Hi-Fi system. I ask this because and I've mentioned this before. Some albums used to sound dull and though the songs were great to listen to but the dullness of the sound quality would put me off really enjoying them.

No with with my expensive cleverly marketed magial cables on my system the dullness has gone, reverb is now audible on the drums and vocals that was not audible before and on other albums that sounded harsh to my ears at loud volumes preventing me from listening at a volume that would allow more detail to be heard now sound much less hars and significantly more detailed and I can now listen at louder volumes in comfort.

You guys whole heartedly feel that it's all in my head and somehow my ears have have suddenly got used to the harsh sounds from these albums and suddenly they are capable of hearing reverb on albums I have never heard before?????

There are too many cables and Hi-Fi combinations to find out why and what combinations these things happen but blind test all you like I happy to just enjoy my music fully at last where I couldn't before.