Innuos Zen Mini basics

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Andrewjvt

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Is that data passed down a digital line is different depending on the digital transport?

I personally wouldn't except any advice on this from hifi publications or people in the business of selling them but would appreciate someone with technical knowledge to confirm why is this claimed.

Or I could do blind test on myself

Or I could challenge someone that claims the superior transport to a blind test where they can't see what is being used on same dac/amp/speakers.
 

insider9

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Andrewjvt said:
Is that data passed down a digital line is different depending on the digital transport?

I personally wouldn't except any advice on this from hifi publications or people in the business of selling them but would appreciate someone with technical knowledge to confirm why is this claimed.

Or I could do blind test on myself

Or I could challenge someone that claims the superior transport to a blind test where they can't see what is being used on same dac/amp/speakers.
It's because transport says Laurel and DAC hears Yanny.
 

Andrewjvt

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insider9 said:
Andrewjvt said:
Is that data passed down a digital line is different depending on the digital transport?

I personally wouldn't except any advice on this from hifi publications or people in the business of selling them but would appreciate someone with technical knowledge to confirm why is this claimed.

Or I could do blind test on myself

Or I could challenge someone that claims the superior transport to a blind test where they can't see what is being used on same dac/amp/speakers.
It's because transport says Laurel and DAC hears Yanny.

Then I'll buy isolation feet for my printer next month after payday.

Are you interested in conducting a scientific blind test between your home made room pc and zennith?
 

insider9

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Andrewjvt said:
insider9 said:
Andrewjvt said:
Is that data passed down a digital line is different depending on the digital transport?

I personally wouldn't except any advice on this from hifi publications or people in the business of selling them but would appreciate someone with technical knowledge to confirm why is this claimed.

Or I could do blind test on myself

Or I could challenge someone that claims the superior transport to a blind test where they can't see what is being used on same dac/amp/speakers.
It's because transport says Laurel and DAC hears Yanny.

Then I'll buy isolation feet for my printer next month after payday.

Are you interested in conducting a scientific blind test between your home made room pc and zennith?
Be happy to if you can get your hands on a Zenith.
 
Andrewjvt said:
Macspur said:
Andrewjvt said:
David f Do you stock both products? Mini and zennith? I'd like to check for myself side by side any difference in sound quality using same dac. Seems it's just a transport (and a dedicated transport at that) I can't believe of the large differences between them. I have no difference using my laptop/cheap laptop on same music files Called up benchmark and asked their opinion and they advised not to waste my money and carry on using laptop. So I'd like to see if the differences are really real or imagined.

Mac Don't know if you've followed the Roon thread but as a serious non believer in snake oil etc I at first heard a massive sound quality improvement using roon compared to jriver. Same dac and same headphones. I went back and rechecked but my audio memory failed me as the difference I thought was so large disappeared.

I can only speak as I find Andrew... believe me, I'd much rather pay for a Mini than the Zenith, but the sq was quite flat with the former compared to my CDP and Sonos via my Audiolab M DAC+

Perhaps with the Accuphase and Harbeths in the mix, I am able to hear the difference rather than if I were using lesser quality kit.

I'm currently listening to I Am Kloot Let It All In and it sounds superb.

Sadly, as mentioned before, I can't use Roon.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

If someone technical can explain to me how this can be the case I'd appreciate it.

Auralic owner/designer insists the best sound quality comes from a Nas (ethernet cable) and then followed by internal ssd.

This would seem to contradict innous product. I have not done blind ab listening tests to prove to myself

So

Please someone with technical knowledge Please explain how data can be made to sound better transporting to the same dac?

Or better put: how to turn data into special 'audiophille' data
It’s a very good and entirely valid question, Andrew.

Stressing at once that I’m not technical to that extent, I’ll nevertheless mention a couple of things I recall.

1. A local dealer I respect who stocks the Innuous said how impressed they were with the Mini. Then they got the next model up and realised it was significantly better - as Mac reports. Later, it was improved and they got the higher model still. They felt that was better too. They are in no doubt. They sell Linn too so I guess they might be disposed towards hierarchies in such things!

2. I’m pretty sure Hi-Fi News magazine have carried several reviews on products like Melco and Aurender which are “just” servers. They explained how these products sound better than direct feed from, for example, a dedicated MacMini. I can’t recall exactly why but I’m sure we can find a reprint. Similar findings with a ‘bridge’ device, though I cannot remember the brand.

Edit, here is a review:- http://www.moremusic.nl/reviews/aurender/Aurender_S10_hifi_news.pdf

It makes little sense to me, but in some ways neither do superior CD transports, nor ripping your own CDs to improve the sound, but they are both pretty well accepted now.
 
Andrewjvt said:
Is that data passed down a digital line is different depending on the digital transport?

I personally wouldn't except any advice on this from hifi publications or people in the business of selling them but would appreciate someone with technical knowledge to confirm why is this claimed.

Or I could do blind test on myself

Or I could challenge someone that claims the superior transport to a blind test where they can't see what is being used on same dac/amp/speakers.
I’ve updated my earlier post with a link to an Aurender review. A pal of mine with a Devialet bought one as it sounded better than his dedicated MacMini.
 

insider9

Well-known member
I've heard differences between digital sources so there's no doubt in my mind they exist. Another question entirely would be whether they're big enough to warrant the price difference, or would the same amount spent somewhere else bring more benefit.
 

ellisdj

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I just posted a video up for the Innuos zenith statement vs the Zenith SE in an A/B There is quite a bit of explanation in it from Innuos and at the end quite a bit of explanation of the differences of the mini Zen zenith and how you can upgrade them all and more.

Might be worth some people checking out if they are interested
 

Andrewjvt

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In marketing bs from manufacturers
Or the over excited osd oriented audiophile.

Just real scientific blind listening tests where the person has no idea which one he's listening to.

Otherwise it's meaningless.
Anyone that swapped equipment non blind and can see the so called better part fitted will hear a difference even if there is non.
It's just marketing bs cheating.

I bet those tiny bits of data are so shiney and clean they sparkle into the dac.
 

Andrewjvt

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nopiano said:
Andrewjvt said:
Is that data passed down a digital line is different depending on the digital transport?

I personally wouldn't except any advice on this from hifi publications or people in the business of selling them but would appreciate someone with technical knowledge to confirm why is this claimed.

Or I could do blind test on myself

Or I could challenge someone that claims the superior transport to a blind test where they can't see what is being used on same dac/amp/speakers.
I’ve updated my earlier post with a link to an Aurender review. A pal of mine with a Devialet bought one as it sounded better than his dedicated MacMini. 

I shall.have a look
 

Andrewjvt

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nopiano said:
Andrewjvt said:
Macspur said:
Andrewjvt said:
David f Do you stock both products? Mini and zennith? I'd like to check for myself side by side any difference in sound quality using same dac. Seems it's just a transport (and a dedicated transport at that) I can't believe of the large differences between them. I have no difference using my laptop/cheap laptop on same music files Called up benchmark and asked their opinion and they advised not to waste my money and carry on using laptop. So I'd like to see if the differences are really real or imagined.

Mac Don't know if you've followed the Roon thread but as a serious non believer in snake oil etc I at first heard a massive sound quality improvement using roon compared to jriver. Same dac and same headphones. I went back and rechecked but my audio memory failed me as the difference I thought was so large disappeared.

I can only speak as I find Andrew... believe me, I'd much rather pay for a Mini than the Zenith, but the sq was quite flat with the former compared to my CDP and Sonos via my Audiolab M DAC+

Perhaps with the Accuphase and Harbeths in the mix, I am able to hear the difference rather than if I were using lesser quality kit.

I'm currently listening to I Am Kloot Let It All In and it sounds superb.

Sadly, as mentioned before, I can't use Roon.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

If someone technical can explain to me how this can be the case I'd appreciate it.

Auralic owner/designer insists the best sound quality comes from a Nas (ethernet cable) and then followed by internal ssd.

This would seem to contradict innous product. I have not done blind ab listening tests to prove to myself

So

Please someone with technical knowledge Please explain how data can be made to sound better transporting to the same dac?

Or better put: how to turn data into special 'audiophille' data
It’s a very good and entirely valid question, Andrew.  

Stressing at once that I’m not technical to that extent, I’ll nevertheless mention a couple of things I recall. 

1. A local dealer I respect who stocks the Innuous said how impressed they were with the Mini.  Then they got the next model up and realised it was significantly better - as Mac reports.  Later, it was improved and they got the higher model still.  They felt that was better too.  They are in no doubt.  They sell Linn too so I guess they might be disposed towards hierarchies in such things!  

2.  I’m pretty sure Hi-Fi News magazine have carried several reviews on products like Melco and Aurender which are “just” servers. They explained how these products sound better than direct feed from, for example, a dedicated MacMini. I can’t recall exactly why but I’m sure we can find a reprint.  Similar findings with a ‘bridge’ device, though I cannot remember the brand.  

Edit, here is a review:- http://www.moremusic.nl/reviews/aurender/Aurender_S10_hifi_news.pdf

It makes little sense to me, but in some ways neither do superior CD transports, nor ripping your own CDs to improve the sound, but they are both pretty well accepted now. 

Reading the lab report
The human ear could not possibly tell those differences they discuss

And definitely not on a blind comparison
That's my view.
I'd really like someone to prove me wrong by completing a blind test

PS not conducted by the wife
 

Andrewjvt

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insider9 said:
I've heard differences between digital sources so there's no doubt in my mind they exist. Another question entirely would be whether they're big enough to warrant the price difference, or would the same amount spent somewhere else bring more benefit.
How did you
Come to hear difference in digital transport?

And
Do you think you could confidently tell the differences in a blind test?

We are talking transport now and same dac.

So let's say if blind folded with no sales pitch or clues
Do you think you could accurately tell the difference between a laptop and dedicated streamer?

Or even harder a zen from a zennith?

If I were blind folded I doubt I could but if I were sighted and listened to sales pitch I'm sure I'd hear a difference like all the others.
My point are those differences really real?

I don't want to give in to the typical
Audiophile reasoning that a data stream can be polished.
 

daveh75

Well-known member
insider9 said:
I've heard differences between digital sources so there's no doubt in my mind they exist. Another question entirely would be whether they're big enough to warrant the price difference, or would the same amount spent somewhere else bring more benefit.

I've no doubt you've heard differences between digital sources, it doesn't mean there was one.

So unless the sources were carefully volume matched, and you compared them blind etc, your findings are meaningless...
 

Macspur

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Some people are just determined to suck the last bit of fun out of this beloved hobby and this forum is a poorer place for it.

Cables were one thing, but now analysing to death the whys and wherefores of the source is becoming a real turn off.

If people are happy to believe they hear a difference just leave them in their ignorant bliss... please!!!

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com
 

cheeseboy

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C19h83dUQAE_dka.jpg
 

Andrewjvt

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Macspur said:
Some people are just determined to suck the last bit of fun out of this beloved hobby and this forum is a poorer place for it.

Cables were one thing, but now analysing to death the whys and wherefores of the source is becoming a real turn off.

If people are happy to believe they hear a difference just leave them in their ignorant bliss... please!!!

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

I never knew your forum wishes were more important.

This is something very important to me actually as ive been investigating this for over a few months and I'm yet to have any proof at all apart from just listen.

I also need to buy/build a streamer and I don't want to be suckered into spending money unnecessary because I've been tricked by a con artist or read a magazine.

What's the worst that could happen? I can be proved wrong and you can feel proud. What's the best?
You can save money instead of waste it.
 

insider9

Well-known member
Andrewjvt said:
insider9 said:
I've heard differences between digital sources so there's no doubt in my mind they exist. Another question entirely would be whether they're big enough to warrant the price difference, or would the same amount spent somewhere else bring more benefit.
How did you
Come to hear difference in digital transport?

And
Do you think you could confidently tell the differences in a blind test?

We are talking transport now and same dac.

So let's say if blind folded with no sales pitch or clues
Do you think you could accurately tell the difference between a laptop and dedicated streamer?

Or even harder a zen from a zennith?

If I were blind folded I doubt I could but if I were sighted and listened to sales pitch I'm sure I'd hear a difference like all the others.
My point are those differences really real?

I don't want to give in to the typical
Audiophile reasoning that a data stream can be polished.
Yes, same DAC different transport. And no it wasn't a blind test and as I'm sceptical by nature I was surprised. Sure it could've been bias. There was no one influencing talking over what kind of differences you should hear. It was not a sales pitch.

As to blind tests. I'm not a fan. If a decision between two components requires a blind test then I can tell you straight away, I'm not interested. Minute differences don't appeal to me and it's not how I spend my money. I also evaluate components during extended listening sessions, not quick AB's, which are too limited for me to find them useful.
 

Andrewjvt

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insider9 said:
Andrewjvt said:
insider9 said:
I've heard differences between digital sources so there's no doubt in my mind they exist. Another question entirely would be whether they're big enough to warrant the price difference, or would the same amount spent somewhere else bring more benefit.
How did you
Come to hear difference in digital transport?

And
Do you think you could confidently tell the differences in a blind test?

We are talking transport now and same dac.

So let's say if blind folded with no sales pitch or clues
Do you think you could accurately tell the difference between a laptop and dedicated streamer?

Or even harder a zen from a zennith?

If I were blind folded I doubt I could but if I were sighted and listened to sales pitch I'm sure I'd hear a difference like all the others.
My point are those differences really real?

I don't want to give in to the typical
Audiophile reasoning that a data stream can be polished.
Yes, same DAC different transport. And no it wasn't a blind test and as I'm sceptical by nature I was surprised. Sure it could've been bias. There was no one influencing talking over what kind of differences you should hear. It was not a sales pitch.

As to blind tests. I'm not a fan. If a decision between two components requires a blind test then I can tell you straight away, I'm not interested. Minute differences don't appeal to me and it's not how I spend my money. I also evaluate components during extended listening sessions, not quick AB's, which are too limited for me to find them useful.

A little out of context and you escaped the questions but I now understand.
 

Macspur

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Andrewjvt said:
Macspur said:
Some people are just determined to suck the last bit of fun out of this beloved hobby and this forum is a poorer place for it.

Cables were one thing, but now analysing to death the whys and wherefores of the source is becoming a real turn off.

If people are happy to believe they hear a difference just leave them in their ignorant bliss... please!!!

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

I never knew your forum wishes were more important.

This is something very important to me actually as ive been investigating this for over a few months and I'm yet to have any proof at all apart from just listen.

I also need to buy/build a streamer and I don't want to be suckered into spending money unnecessary because I've been tricked by a con artist or read a magazine.

What's the worst that could happen? I can be proved wrong and you can feel proud. What's the best? You can save money instead of waste it.

Not just mine...

Before trying the Innuous I had no preconceptions on the sq, I was really just interested in having a piece of HiFi that would be easy for me to rip CD's onto... I hadn't even spoken to a dealer about sound quality, but a short time of listening to the Mini I knew it was inferior to my existing sources.

Now 've got the Zenith on demo and able to switch between CD, Sonos and Innuous I am hard put to tell the difference... being visually impaired, I like to think my hearing is up to discerning the difference.

Just ignore me Andrew, you carry on your research and if you do find there to be no improvement between one digital source and another you can have the last laugh.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com
 

CnoEvil

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Mac, I believe you. :)

It is impossible to prove to others (to their satisfaction), the perceived improvements you are hearing, on a Forum...that is something that they will have to do for themselves.
 

insider9

Well-known member
I wasn't trying to avoid the answer. The honest answer is, I don't know. I believe I could with the components I tried and I wouldn't be embarrassed to be proved wrong. As stated above it wouldn't be my favourite thing to do, but I'd be curious enough to do one of those once in a while.

I'm against snake oil just as much as you. A lot of it makes people in our hobby look like charlatans. But then there is another contrasting group of people who contribute to this also. These who claim nothing, ever makes a difference. According to some all amps sound the same, all DAC's sound the same, bit is bit, etc. I wonder how many people who commented that categorically there couldn't be a difference actually heard Innuos products.

Mac, I'm glad you're enjoying your new toy. Don't be discouraged by the comments. I've not heard Innuos but was sufficiently impressed by a quick listen to Melco.
 
Andrewjvt said:
If someone technical can explain to me how this can be the case I'd appreciate it.

Auralic owner/designer insists the best sound quality comes from a Nas (ethernet cable) and then followed by internal ssd.

This would seem to contradict innous product.
Do you mean that is the order the Auralic designer rated the effectiveness of improvements? If so, I’m not sure how that contradicts Innuos. Innuos don’t do Ethernet cables (although I’d have thought you’d have taken issue with that one), and if the “NAS” itself makes the biggest difference, I’m presuming that encapsulates everything as a collective that’s inside the box other than the digital drives. The Innuos models have progressively better power supplies as you move up through the range.

So

Please someone with technical knowledge Please explain how data can be made to sound better transporting to the same dac?

Or better put: how to turn data into special 'audiophille' data
I think that much of the time, the arguments against cables and digital sources etc seem to be made from the approach that you can’t improve the signal, which isn’t necessarily the best way to look at it. Try it from the angle that you’re trying to “preserve” the original signal without any losses caused by something which is less than perfect - and let’s face it - no hi-fi is “perfect”. If it was, it’d sound like Bono was in your living room. God forbid.

I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ve had a few people in about the Innuos products, and they’ve all taken home the ZENith to try out in their own system. All have purchased one model or another from that. One had a home demo of the ZENith SE after loaning my ZENith, and he bought the SE. Now one or two of these people, particularly the latter one I mentioned, are in the data industry in one avenue or another. More than once I’ve been told that they don’t understand how it sounds better as data is data, but there is definitely a difference. They also don’t seem interested in ‘why’ the difference exists, as they’ve heard it in their system. Granted, their systems are the type that are able to appreciate this level of source and show the differences between an SE and a non SE ZENith, but I wasn’t going to argue with him as he knows more about data transfer than I do.

I’ll have to see if I can get together with Innuos and hold an event to show that they do make a difference - maybe a direct comparison of the ZEN Mini against the Statement, or maybe even a standard NAS drive against a Statement - that sort of demo should present a definite appreciable difference for all (through a suitable system). Comparing neighbouring models will be trickier, what we’re trying to do is show that there is a difference, and we need to make this as easily appreciated as possible. Once a difference is confirmed, an individual is then free to research the difference between models they’re likely to purchase.

With AB demos though, many people expect to be blown away by differences, and that is usually the detail that makes for disappointing results. People expect to hear something that sounds totally different, and that’s rarely the case, with anything, particularly when the products are from the same manufacturer. This, I feel, adds a little weight to my theory that many people in demos only listen to tonal balance - the tonal balance between a range of the same manufacturer’s products is most likely to be the same, as it has been designed by the same person, and usually to a ‘house sound’.
 

cheeseboy

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insider9 said:
hese who claim nothing, ever makes a difference. According to some all amps sound the same, all DAC's sound the same, bit is bit, etc. I wonder how many people who commented that categorically there couldn't be a difference actually heard Innuos products.

in fairness I dont think I've ever met or read anybody who has ever said that. Usually there is the caveat that providing something is designed and built to a certain standard, then there shouldnt be any or minimal diffrerence. If there is a difference at that point, it's then the rabbit hole of how far does one want to go to work out why they heard a difference.

There's also the flip side to what you say - I'll totally agree that there will be a lot of people who may comment on something they have not heard. But the flip side is there are also a lot of people who seem to want to comment on things they haven't tried such as proper blind testing etc. So we get this wall where one side is saying "how do you know, you've never heard it" (the it being a peice of equipment or whatever) and the other saying "how do you know if you've never tried it" (the it in this case being things such as blind testing, measurements etc). I find that stance quite ironic as both sides are saying try it, but neither do ;)

So, like you say, it does cut both ways :)
 
cheeseboy said:
insider9 said:
hese who claim nothing, ever makes a difference. According to some all amps sound the same, all DAC's sound the same, bit is bit, etc. I wonder how many people who commented that categorically there couldn't be a difference actually heard Innuos products.

in fairness I dont think I've ever met or read anybody who has ever said that.
No, because they only live on the internet!
 

Andrewjvt

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davidf said:
Andrewjvt said:
 

If someone technical can explain to me how this can be the case I'd appreciate it.

Auralic owner/designer insists the best sound quality comes from a Nas (ethernet cable) and then followed by internal ssd.

This would seem to contradict innous product.
Do you mean that is the order the Auralic designer rated the effectiveness of improvements? If so, I’m not sure how that contradicts Innuos. Innuos don’t do Ethernet cables (although I’d have thought you’d have taken issue with that one), and if the “NAS” itself makes the biggest difference, I’m presuming that encapsulates everything as a collective that’s inside the box other than the digital drives. The Innuos models have progressively better power supplies as you move up through the range.

So

Please someone with technical knowledge Please explain how data can be made to sound better transporting to the same dac?

Or better put: how to turn data into special 'audiophille' data
I think that much of the time, the arguments against cables and digital sources etc seem to be made from the approach that you can’t improve the signal, which isn’t necessarily the best way to look at it. Try it from the angle that you’re trying to “preserve” the original signal without any losses caused by something which is less than perfect - and let’s face it - no hi-fi is “perfect”. If it was, it’d sound like Bono was in your living room. God forbid.

 

I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ve had a few people in about the Innuos products, and they’ve all taken home the ZENith to try out in their own system. All have purchased one model or another from that. One had a home demo of the ZENith SE after loaning my ZENith, and he bought the SE. Now one or two of these people, particularly the latter one I mentioned, are in the data industry in one avenue or another. More than once I’ve been told that they don’t understand how it sounds better as data is data, but there is definitely a difference. They also don’t seem interested in ‘why’ the difference exists, as they’ve heard it in their system. Granted, their systems are the type that are able to appreciate this level of source and show the differences between an SE and a non SE ZENith, but I wasn’t going to argue with him as he knows more about data transfer than I do. 

I’ll have to see if I can get together with Innuos and hold an event to show that they do make a difference - maybe a direct comparison of the ZEN Mini against the Statement, or maybe even a standard NAS drive against a Statement - that sort of demo should present a definite appreciable difference for all (through a suitable system). Comparing neighbouring models will be trickier, what we’re trying to do is show that there is a difference, and we need to make this as easily appreciated as possible. Once a difference is confirmed, an individual is then free to research the difference between models they’re likely to purchase.

With AB demos though, many people expect to be blown away by differences, and that is usually the detail that makes for disappointing results. People expect to hear something that sounds totally different, and that’s rarely the case, with anything, particularly when the products are from the same manufacturer. This, I feel, adds a little weight to my theory that many people in demos only listen to tonal balance - the tonal balance between a range of the same manufacturer’s products is most likely to be the same, as it has been designed by the same person, and usually to a ‘house sound’.

My last comment in this thread because I don't want to upset the op

David:
How many that chose the zennith conducted a blind test?

And how do you manipulate a data stream to create 'a house sound?'

Data will either work or cause jitter?
If jitter can't be heard using a standard noisy laptop with a particular dac. How will adding better power supply improve the data files of music?

Last one
You've touched on very small differences but thats not whats being said by other website hosts.
A clear difference, night and day
Massive improvement
Is what's being said to describe the sound.

Is the dac not meant to handle and sort the data anyway to stop jitter?

I mean how can a innous zen mini be so bad that even a Sonos makes it sound flat?
Surely if that's the case they have done this on purpose so you immediately buy the expensive model? Perhaps

Why does my laptop sound just as good as high end cd player transport? (Into the same dac)
Sorry Mac
 

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