Innuos Zen Mini basics

[Andrewjvt]

I started another thread as to not spoil your new toy.
I'd be just as excited as you if one was on its way to me

 

[davidf]

My last comment in this thread because I don't want to upset the op

David: How many that chose the zennith conducted a blind test?

None as far as I know, but I know one changed from a Melco.

And how do you manipulate a data stream to create 'a house sound?'

That was more referring to things like amplifiers, but depending on the design brief, its not inconceivable that a range of digital components will naturally have some sort of signature to it, even if it was down to the tech being used.

Data will either work or cause jitter? If jitter can't be heard using a standard noisy laptop with a particular dac. How will adding better power supply improve the data files of music?

How close do you think a laptop can get to recreating exactly what is on the digital file? How close can it get to a dedicated digital source that has had time and effort put into isolating circuitry, choosing the right components for the job, ensuring correct heat dissipation, reducing noise, etc etc. Most laptops are a jack of all trades that are designed to a budget - they’re like AV receivers - features are more important than quality. I’ve had a few laptops over the years, all Toshiba, and all have been very reliable. My earlier ones were usually between £1k-2k type laptops of 10/15 years ago, with Hartman Kardon sound system which sounded very, very good for a laptop, and build quality was excellent. My current one was £450 about 6 years ago, and whilst it’s been the workhorse that the others have been, the sound is bloody awful, and whilst built well, it’s nothing like the others, and half the weight. I’ve not used any of these as digital sources, but I wouldn’t for one moment expect my current laptop to be able to compete, and not that I’d want it to anyway, as it gets enough use as it is - the last thing I want to do is leave it on 24/7 - it’s noisy enough as it is.

The only good thing a laptop has going for it is that it’s power supply is separate.

Last one You've touched on very small differences but thats not whats being said by other website hosts. A clear difference, night and day Massive improvement Is what's being said to describe the sound.

Perception. Expectation. I’ve said before that as individuals, we perceive a difference, whatever that might be. How big that difference is influenced by our perception of the difference and our expectations. We then use our own subjective words to describe this difference and it’s magnitude. Others will read that, perceive it in their own way, and create an expectation in their own mind. This then has an effect on how they perceive the differences they get to hear. To some people, a small difference can have a large affect on how convincing their system sounds. It might just be a shimmer of cymbals, which those listening to tonal balance won’t notice, but that shimmer just opens up a layer of reality to their favourite music. That’s too small a difference for some - they suddenly want to feel the kick drum in their pants, which is quite an unreasonable expectation for two products that sit next to each other in the grand scheme of things.

Is the dac not meant to handle and sort the data anyway to stop jitter?

Regardless of source, why do Chord’s DACs keep winning awards if they all sound the same and eliminate jitter?

 

[cheeseboy]

How close do you think a laptop can get to recreating exactly what is on the digital file? How close can it get to a dedicated digital source that has had time and effort put into isolating circuitry, choosing the right components for the job, ensuring correct heat dissipation, reducing noise, etc etc. Most laptops are a jack of all trades that are designed to a budget - they’re like AV receivers - features are more important than quality.

with all due respect, you've fallen in to the folly that a lot of audiophiles do. the laptop can re-create exactly what is on the digital file, because it's digital. When you are talking about the digital domain it has very very strict rules. These rules are not open to interpretation or analogue audio best practise. Once you pass off that file to process of coverting to analogue, then yes, the things you mention will matter, but purely in the digital domain, it's all the same.

As I've said before, transmitting digital data either works or it doesn't. Please don't forget that it wasn't that long ago most people's internet traffic was literally converted to an audio analogue signal, then sent down the crappy copper wires as an audio analogue signal to be received as an audio analogue signal and then re-converted back to digital. But becasue it's digitial you can do that, as it's either on or off. Similarly so, I could take a piece of music, convert it in to base64, literally print it out on to paper, send it to you via normal snail mail, you could then scan those pages in to a computer and convert it from base64 back in to the music file and will be identical to the file that I used to send to you. If anything goes wrong, the file will not work. There won't be a loss of resolution etc.

Sadly, a lot of audiophiles have tried to shoehorn the best practices they used in the analogue domain to the computer domain, but it just doesn't work like that.

 

[cheeseboy]

]Regardless of source, why do Chord’s DACs keep winning awards if they all sound the same and eliminate jitter?

...and who is giving out these awards?

 

[Andrewjvt]

How close do you think a laptop can get to recreating exactly what is on the digital file? How close can it get to a dedicated digital source that has had time and effort put into isolating circuitry, choosing the right components for the job, ensuring correct heat dissipation, reducing noise, etc etc. Most laptops are a jack of all trades that are designed to a budget - they’re like AV receivers - features are more important than quality.

with all due respect, you've fallen in to the folly that a lot of audiophiles do.  the laptop can re-create exactly what is on the digital file, because it's digital.  When you are talking about the digital domain it has very very strict rules.  These rules are not open to interpretation or analogue audio best practise.  Once you pass off that file to process of coverting to analogue, then yes, the things you mention will matter, but purely in the digital domain, it's all the same.

As I've said before, transmitting digital data either works or it doesn't.  Please don't forget that it wasn't that long ago most people's internet traffic was literally converted to an audio analogue signal, then sent down the crappy copper wires as an audio analogue signal to be received as an audio analogue signal and then re-converted back to digital.  But becasue it's digitial you can do that, as it's either on or off.  Similarly so, I could take a piece of music, convert it in to base64, literally print it out on to paper, send it to you via normal snail mail, you could then scan those pages in to a computer and convert it from base64 back in to the music file and will be identical to the file that I used to send to you.  If anything goes wrong, the file will not work.  There won't be a loss of resolution etc.

Sadly, a lot of audiophiles have tried to shoehorn the best practices they used in the analogue domain to the computer domain, but it just doesn't work like that.

 

 

Please join in on the digital brawler post.
I hope you don't mind but I've copied your comment over on that one also.

 

[cheeseboy]

Please join in on the digital brawler post. I hope you don't mind but I've copied your comment over on that one also.

yep, apologies op, I didn't see andrewjvt had started a new thread, I'll hop over there.

 

[davidf]

I appreciate there's two camps to this sort of thing - those that come from it from the technical standpoint and state there cannot be any difference because the scientific data says there can't be, and those that come at it from their own listening experiences which to them, invalidates the scientific data. Either side will argue until they're blue in the face, but as others have said, it changes nothing. Usually, those who've experienced differences are defending their own findings, and those who categorically know there cannot be a difference are usually trying to convert the aforementioned using science.

I've put forward in this thread (and others) my standpoint, which puts me in the firing line somewhat, but I'm just here to enjoy the music. I'm not trying to sell anyone a USB cable or whatever - all I try and do is to say to those who have no first hand experience or haven't done any comparisons to do so, and see what they think. An off the shelf, noisy little plastic cased NAS drive does a job, as does a laptop, but once your system reaches a certain level...well, you know what I'm going to say. I started with a WD NAS drive. I then moved onto a ZEN. I know have a ZENith. That ZENith has fronted many systems, and regardless of the system it fronts, it sounds great. I can't say that the WD NAS drive would've been as capable in some of those systems. Based on my current pre-amp/DAC, I wouldn't use an off the shelf NAS drive (nor my laptop), as that sort of thing is fine for Sonos, but not when you have a greater insight into what is on that HDD drive.

All I would say is get a demo and listen - through a suitably revealing system for the media server being used - listening to the difference between a ZEN Mini and a ZEnith is going to be pointless through a £200/300 mini system.

 

[cheeseboy]

I appreciate there's two camps to this sort of thing - those that come from it from the technical standpoint and state there cannot be any difference because the scientific data says there can't be, and those that come at it from their own listening experiences which to them, invalidates the scientific data.

Subjective listening experiences do not invalidate scientific data, no matter how much you would like them to. Otherwise I could argue magic is real because I can't explain how they did the trick.

 

[ellisdj]

I dont think anyone shoe horned anything - people started making the move towards computer based sources because of their convienience over disc spinners but soon realised they actually dont sound very good. Dilemna

Some people have worked out why and then led the way for the rest and all sorts of people discover what they do and on it goes, and I think because that discovery is so easy to find and research with the internet that things now move really fast in the computer transport world.

I think the push back towards vinyl is big impart to the fact people generally dont think digital sounds that good / as good - and that is largely because people think digital is just digital then point the blame at the recording / mastering - wrongly 99.99% of the time ime.

I applaud lots of companies for trying to give us better sound with the convienience that I now take for granted.

 

[Macspur]

If someone technical can explain to me how this can be the case I'd appreciate it.

Auralic owner/designer insists the best sound quality comes from a Nas (ethernet cable) and then followed by internal ssd.

This would seem to contradict innous product.

Do you mean that is the order the Auralic designer rated the effectiveness of improvements? If so, I’m not sure how that contradicts Innuos. Innuos don’t do Ethernet cables (although I’d have thought you’d have taken issue with that one), and if the “NAS” itself makes the biggest difference, I’m presuming that encapsulates everything as a collective that’s inside the box other than the digital drives. The Innuos models have progressively better power supplies as you move up through the range.

So

Please someone with technical knowledge Please explain how data can be made to sound better transporting to the same dac?

Or better put: how to turn data into special 'audiophille' data

I think that much of the time, the arguments against cables and digital sources etc seem to be made from the approach that you can’t improve the signal, which isn’t necessarily the best way to look at it. Try it from the angle that you’re trying to “preserve” the original signal without any losses caused by something which is less than perfect - and let’s face it - no hi-fi is “perfect”. If it was, it’d sound like Bono was in your living room. God forbid.

I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ve had a few people in about the Innuos products, and they’ve all taken home the ZENith to try out in their own system. All have purchased one model or another from that. One had a home demo of the ZENith SE after loaning my ZENith, and he bought the SE. Now one or two of these people, particularly the latter one I mentioned, are in the data industry in one avenue or another. More than once I’ve been told that they don’t understand how it sounds better as data is data, but there is definitely a difference. They also don’t seem interested in ‘why’ the difference exists, as they’ve heard it in their system. Granted, their systems are the type that are able to appreciate this level of source and show the differences between an SE and a non SE ZENith, but I wasn’t going to argue with him as he knows more about data transfer than I do.

I’ll have to see if I can get together with Innuos and hold an event to show that they do make a difference - maybe a direct comparison of the ZEN Mini against the Statement, or maybe even a standard NAS drive against a Statement - that sort of demo should present a definite appreciable difference for all (through a suitable system). Comparing neighbouring models will be trickier, what we’re trying to do is show that there is a difference, and we need to make this as easily appreciated as possible. Once a difference is confirmed, an individual is then free to research the difference between models they’re likely to purchase.

With AB demos though, many people expect to be blown away by differences, and that is usually the detail that makes for disappointing results. People expect to hear something that sounds totally different, and that’s rarely the case, with anything, particularly when the products are from the same manufacturer. This, I feel, adds a little weight to my theory that many people in demos only listen to tonal balance - the tonal balance between a range of the same manufacturer’s products is most likely to be the same, as it has been designed by the same person, and usually to a ‘house sound’.

My last comment in this thread because I don't want to upset the op

David: How many that chose the zennith conducted a blind test?

And how do you manipulate a data stream to create 'a house sound?'

Data will either work or cause jitter? If jitter can't be heard using a standard noisy laptop with a particular dac. How will adding better power supply improve the data files of music?

Last one You've touched on very small differences but thats not whats being said by other website hosts. A clear difference, night and day Massive improvement Is what's being said to describe the sound.

Is the dac not meant to handle and sort the data anyway to stop jitter?

I mean how can a innous zen mini be so bad that even a Sonos makes it sound flat? Surely if that's the case they have done this on purpose so you immediately buy the expensive model? Perhaps

Why does my laptop sound just as good as high end cd player transport? (Into the same dac) Sorry Mac

Hey Andrew,

No need to apologise, but thanks anyway.

I'm fully aware of snakeoil and will freely admit to have been taken in by it in the past, but I just get a bit fed up with the cable debates and now the digital question seems to have taken over.. that's my problem and I'll just avoid those threads in future..

The Mini may well sound excellent in another system to mine... I doubt someone with a £500 amp and speaker set up would buy a Zen or Zenith, so I guess Innuous are catering for all markets, no different to many brands in that respect.

Good luck in your research.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[Macspur]

One thing I'm pretty disappointed in, is how many of my albums the Zenith is failing to recognise... some I'm not too surprised at, but I've just put in a Laura Veirs CD who it really should be able to retrieve the info for... I know I can manually add the tags, but could really do without the hassel.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[davidf]

I appreciate there's two camps to this sort of thing - those that come from it from the technical standpoint and state there cannot be any difference because the scientific data says there can't be, and those that come at it from their own listening experiences which to them, invalidates the scientific data.

Subjective listening experiences do not invalidate scientific data, no matter how much you would like them to. Otherwise I could argue magic is real because I can't explain how they did the trick.

 

[davidf]

One thing I'm pretty disappointed in, is how many of my albums the Zenith is failing to recognise... some I'm not too surprised at, but I've just put in a Laura Veirs CD who it really should be able to retrieve the info for... I know I can manually add the tags, but could really do without the hassel.

Mac

Innuos are very good with this, although I can't say I came across it too many times when ripping around 1,000 albums. Sometimes it's a Gracenote issue, but if it's anything to do with the ZENith, they're very helpful and want to know why it's not coming up with all the data. I had a customer who had two albums that weren't being presented as they should (various artist CDs), and they sorted the problem out for him. It was all deep within the Matrix code.

 

[Macspur]

One thing I'm pretty disappointed in, is how many of my albums the Zenith is failing to recognise... some I'm not too surprised at, but I've just put in a Laura Veirs CD who it really should be able to retrieve the info for... I know I can manually add the tags, but could really do without the hassel.

Mac

Innuos are very good with this, although I can't say I came across it too many times when ripping around 1,000 albums. Sometimes it's a Gracenote issue, but if it's anything to do with the ZENith, they're very helpful and want to know why it's not coming up with all the data. I had a customer who had two albums that weren't being presented as they should (various artist CDs), and they sorted the problem out for him. It was all deep within the Matrix code.

Perhaps some might say it speaks volumes about my musical taste, lol

Thanks for that David, I'll drop them an Email... I haven't even spent a penny with them yet and already impressed with their customer support.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[Strictly Stereo]

My last comment in this thread because I don't want to upset the op

David: How many that chose the zennith conducted a blind test?

And how do you manipulate a data stream to create 'a house sound?'

Data will either work or cause jitter? If jitter can't be heard using a standard noisy laptop with a particular dac. How will adding better power supply improve the data files of music?

Last one You've touched on very small differences but thats not whats being said by other website hosts. A clear difference, night and day Massive improvement Is what's being said to describe the sound.

Is the dac not meant to handle and sort the data anyway to stop jitter?

I mean how can a innous zen mini be so bad that even a Sonos makes it sound flat? Surely if that's the case they have done this on purpose so you immediately buy the expensive model? Perhaps

Why does my laptop sound just as good as high end cd player transport? (Into the same dac) Sorry Mac

You can manipulate a digital audio stream with digital signal processing. DSP has lots of uses, one of which is to adjust the signal to match a target house curve.

A jittery input signal will still work, except perhaps in the most extreme cases. Jitter causes tiny errors in the analogue waveform. In a suitably resolving system, these could translate as tonal inaccuracies or a lack of realism/naturalness.

Not all DACs deal with jitter the same way. Some do not deal with it at all and rely on being fed an accurately clocked input signal.

This depends in part on which DAC you have and how your laptop and CD player are connected to it. If your are connecting your laptop via asynchronous USB and your CD player has a high quality S/PDIF output, then you may not hear much difference.

 

[nopiano]

I started another thread as to not spoil your new toy. I'd be just as excited as you if one was on its way to me

Good idea. I apologise too, Mac, for taking this rather off piste!

 

[Macspur]

I started another thread as to not spoil your new toy. I'd be just as excited as you if one was on its way to me

Good idea. I apologise too, Mac, for taking this rather off piste!

Not at all! no problem.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[Macspur]

Hi,

The new Zenith MKII will be here tomorrow, got a bit knocked off as it's a cancelled order.

I had a thorough workout with the demo unit and totally convinced of it's merits and able to access all functions except Roon of course.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Hi,

The new Zenith MKII will be here tomorrow, got a bit knocked off as it's a cancelled order.

I had a thorough workout with the demo unit and totally convinced of it's merits and able to access all functions except Roon of course.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

Have fun!

 

[nopiano]

Great news, Mac. So pleased that you like it! Bon chance!

 

[Macspur]

Thanks guys.

Ripped about a dozen CD's so far, only another 988 to go!

I don't know how, but the SQ is truly superb!

Anyone thinking of buying this type of unit, do demo an Innuous first and don't let what I said about the Zen Mini put you off, it may well be perfectly fine in another set up.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[CnoEvil]

Mac, how close to your Electro CDP does it get for SQ.

 

[Macspur]

Mac, how close to your Electro CDP does it get for SQ.

Well, that's a good question and I never thought I'd hear something like a streamer as good as the EMC1UP, but I believe the Zenith is really that good... I am mindful when I say that, that it could be a touch of euphoria at having a new toy to play with, but I don't think so.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[CnoEvil]

Mac, how close to your Electro CDP does it get for SQ.

Well, that's a good question and I never thought I'd hear something like a streamer as good as the EMC1UP, but I believe the Zenith is really that good... I am mindful when I say that, that it could be a touch of euphoria at having a new toy to play with, but I don't think so.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

I am not in the least surprised....but was when I first heard a good streamer. It's something you have to hear for yourself.

 

[davidf]

One of the comments I made when I got mine, was that I no longer saw the need for high end CD players (other than to do just that!).