If all well designed amplifiers are difficult to distinguish

[Thompsonuxb]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed.  I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

It's not an insult.

Its a matter of fact!

 

[Electro]

Quick question off topic.

So non of you guys believe in a God or something greater than yourself?

Do you all believe only in the science of men?

You might get a better response to your question below .*smile*

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/topic-and-miscellaneous/can-we-talk-religion

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Quick question off topic.

So non of you guys believe in a God or something greater than yourself?

Do you all believe only in the science of men?

You might get a better response to your question below .*smile*

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/topic-and-miscellaneous/can-we-talk-religion

I know, but the way some are using the term 'religious' or 'religion' as an insult..... I had to ask.

 

[davedotco]

Sugden A21SE vs. NAD C 356BEE.

Which one is a better amplifier and why?

Out of the two I'd choose the NAD. I've no experience with Sugden, but the quoted specs for it are a bit vague and very poor for the price IMO.

I do admit I'm biased towards NAD amps.

High power & low distortion at 20hz-20Khz both channels driven, good S/N, much more flexable conectivity with more inputs, plus a digital input (with the optional DAC module), headphone jack, bypassable tone controls, the usual pre/power conectivity (I know the Sugden has that too), but the NAD gives pretty much everything you could ask for in an amplifer. All it lacks is a phono stage, but NAD make separate ones anyway.

NAD tells you what the power consumption is, Sugden don't as far as I can see.

Sugden also don't quote the THD and they don't tell you how they measured the 30W output. Yes at 8 ohms with both channels, but at what frequency range and with how much distortion?

Personally I wouldn't even consider the Sugden. £2400 for the on paper specs I've just read, no thanks!

It's an interesting question, you have explained your preference for the Nad, so I will explain why I might buy the Sugden.

First of all there is the issue of expectation, I have over the years heard, owned and lived with some very serious kit. I think that the very best amplifiers have an almost indefineable quality and refinement that sets them apart.

The small Sugden is one of the cheapest amplifiers around that can offer a taste of that kind of performance, sure it has limitations, lots of them, but if the facilities fit your needs (mine are pretty basic) and you build a system around it, then you can have a quite exceptional setup.

I understand that this view is unusual, perhaps even contrary to my usual pragmatic approach, but there is a certain logic to it. Sensitive speakers are a must, I would love to try it with the Martin Logan ML15s or Q Acoustics Concept 40 but a lot of listening would be needed to get that right. If you can get these sorts of combinations to work, I think you would have a very interesting system.

 

[TrevC]

Quick question off topic.

So non of you guys believe in a God or something greater than yourself?

Do you all believe only in the science of men?

All the gods that have ever been invented have human fingerprints all over them.

 

[TrevC]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed. I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

He is a clueless simpleton, so I'm not bothered, although I have reported it for the hell of it. He fails to realise that exactly the same components are to be found in budget and top of the range high power amplifiers, which is emphatically not the case with speaker drive units and their enclosures.

 

[hammill]

ThomsonUXB

Since you ask, I think there are a large number of atheists on this forum. Since the majority are technically minded men from the UK it would be very surpising to find it otherwise.

 

[matt49]

It's not an insult.

Its a matter of fact!

Sorry, that argument doesn't work. If I were to say 'you fat bastard!' to an overweight person who was born out of wedlock, it would be both true and an insult.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed.  I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

He is a clueless simpleton, so I'm not bothered, although I have reported it for the hell of it. He fails to realise that exactly the same components are to be found in budget and top of the range high power amplifiers, which is emphatically not the case with speaker drive units and their enclosures.

Reported me for 'the hell of it'......female genital organ.

For the record, amps are built to a spec - resistors, capacitors, transformers and so on have different values to operate to various specification.

It's the reason why the spec sheets differ and why different values are given for output and so on....

Same components, different values - same reason we don't have one fuse fits all in domestic appliances.

You see what I mean...?

Feel free to report this too.....lol

 

[SteveR750]

Quick question off topic.

So non of you guys believe in a God or something greater than yourself?

Do you all believe only in the science of men?

All the gods that have ever been invented have human fingerprints all over them.

Hello, my name is Neo. No let's not got there.

Trev, ignoring some of the preeding fluff, I asked a genuine question a few posts ago about what measurements or criteria we should use in order to distinguish a quality amp. Unfortunately it's been swamped in the detritus.

Max Flinn, please come back, we miss you.....

 

[TrevC]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed. I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

He is a clueless simpleton, so I'm not bothered, although I have reported it for the hell of it. He fails to realise that exactly the same components are to be found in budget and top of the range high power amplifiers, which is emphatically not the case with speaker drive units and their enclosures.

Reported me for 'the hell of it'......female genital organ.

For the record, amps are built to a spec - resistors, capacitors, transformers and so on have different values to operate to various specification.

It's the reason why the spec sheets differ and why different values are given for output and so on....

Same components, different values - same reason we don't have one fuse fits all in domestic appliances.

You see what I mean...?

Feel free to report this too.....lol

More clueless gibberish, with the point missed yet again. Electronic components are cheap, and the same components are used almost universally.

 

[TrevC]

Quick question off topic.

So non of you guys believe in a God or something greater than yourself?

Do you all believe only in the science of men?

All the gods that have ever been invented have human fingerprints all over them.

Hello, my name is Neo. No let's not got there.

Trev, ignoring some of the preeding fluff, I asked a genuine question a few posts ago about what measurements or criteria we should use in order to distinguish a quality amp. Unfortunately it's been swamped in the detritus.

Max Flinn, please come back, we miss you.....

To tell if an amplifier has substance compare the maximum power at 8 ohms and 4 ohms. If the 4 ohm figure is almost double that at 8 ohms with minimal distortion then you have an amp that will cope well with whatever speaker you throw at it.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed.  I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

He is a clueless simpleton, so I'm not bothered, although I have reported it for the hell of it. He fails to realise that exactly the same components are to be found in budget and top of the range high power amplifiers, which is emphatically not the case with speaker drive units and their enclosures.

Reported me for 'the hell of it'......female genital organ.

For the record, amps are built to a spec - resistors, capacitors, transformers and so on have different values to operate to various specification.

It's the reason why the spec sheets differ and why different values are given for output and so on....

Same components, different values - same reason we don't have one fuse fits all in domestic appliances.

You see what I mean...?

Feel free to report this too.....lol

More clueless gibberish, with the point missed yet again. Electronic components are cheap, and the same components are used almost universally.

So what if they are cheap?

Are you saying they all have the same electrical value?

So one standard is used for all electrical devices?

Is that what you are saying?

 

[TrevC]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed. I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

He is a clueless simpleton, so I'm not bothered, although I have reported it for the hell of it. He fails to realise that exactly the same components are to be found in budget and top of the range high power amplifiers, which is emphatically not the case with speaker drive units and their enclosures.

Reported me for 'the hell of it'......female genital organ.

For the record, amps are built to a spec - resistors, capacitors, transformers and so on have different values to operate to various specification.

It's the reason why the spec sheets differ and why different values are given for output and so on....

Same components, different values - same reason we don't have one fuse fits all in domestic appliances.

You see what I mean...?

Feel free to report this too.....lol

More clueless gibberish, with the point missed yet again. Electronic components are cheap, and the same components are used almost universally.

So what if they are cheap?

Are you saying they all have the same electrical value?

So one standard is used for all electrical devices?

Is that what you are saying?

What on earth are you on about? Your question makes no sense.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed.  I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

He is a clueless simpleton, so I'm not bothered, although I have reported it for the hell of it. He fails to realise that exactly the same components are to be found in budget and top of the range high power amplifiers, which is emphatically not the case with speaker drive units and their enclosures.

Reported me for 'the hell of it'......female genital organ.

For the record, amps are built to a spec - resistors, capacitors, transformers and so on have different values to operate to various specification.

It's the reason why the spec sheets differ and why different values are given for output and so on....

Same components, different values - same reason we don't have one fuse fits all in domestic appliances.

You see what I mean...?

Feel free to report this too.....lol

More clueless gibberish, with the point missed yet again. Electronic components are cheap, and the same components are used almost universally.

So what if they are cheap?

Are you saying they all have the same electrical value?

So one standard is used for all electrical devices?

Is that what you are saying?

What on earth are you on about? Your question makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense.

Do the same electrical components that make up all the amps in use have the same electrical value.

Resistors, capacitors...etc

Yes or no?

Or you can continue to skirt around a straight reply.

 

[TrevC]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed. I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

He is a clueless simpleton, so I'm not bothered, although I have reported it for the hell of it. He fails to realise that exactly the same components are to be found in budget and top of the range high power amplifiers, which is emphatically not the case with speaker drive units and their enclosures.

Reported me for 'the hell of it'......female genital organ.

For the record, amps are built to a spec - resistors, capacitors, transformers and so on have different values to operate to various specification.

It's the reason why the spec sheets differ and why different values are given for output and so on....

Same components, different values - same reason we don't have one fuse fits all in domestic appliances.

You see what I mean...?

Feel free to report this too.....lol

More clueless gibberish, with the point missed yet again. Electronic components are cheap, and the same components are used almost universally.

So what if they are cheap?

Are you saying they all have the same electrical value?

So one standard is used for all electrical devices?

Is that what you are saying?

What on earth are you on about? Your question makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense.

Do the same electrical components that make up all the amps in use have the same electrical value.

Resistors, capacitors...etc

Yes or no?

Or you can continue to skirt around a straight reply.

No, your question really does make no sense. It displays your ignorance of electronics. Same electrical value ROFL.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed.  I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

He is a clueless simpleton, so I'm not bothered, although I have reported it for the hell of it. He fails to realise that exactly the same components are to be found in budget and top of the range high power amplifiers, which is emphatically not the case with speaker drive units and their enclosures.

Reported me for 'the hell of it'......female genital organ.

For the record, amps are built to a spec - resistors, capacitors, transformers and so on have different values to operate to various specification.

It's the reason why the spec sheets differ and why different values are given for output and so on....

Same components, different values - same reason we don't have one fuse fits all in domestic appliances.

You see what I mean...?

Feel free to report this too.....lol

More clueless gibberish, with the point missed yet again. Electronic components are cheap, and the same components are used almost universally.

So what if they are cheap?

Are you saying they all have the same electrical value?

So one standard is used for all electrical devices?

Is that what you are saying?

What on earth are you on about? Your question makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense.

Do the same electrical components that make up all the amps in use have the same electrical value.

Resistors, capacitors...etc

Yes or no?

Or you can continue to skirt around a straight reply.

No, your question really does make no sense. It displays your ignorance of electronics. Same electrical value ROFL. 

Ask Vlad what's the the first thing he does when checking out an amp.

Ask him why.

Refer to the replys ref the NAD and the Sugden a few replys up.

You see what happens when your ignorance talks you into a corner.

Why you feel the need to pretend you have any technical knowledge I do not know.

Seriously.

 

[davedotco]

To tell if an amplifier has substance compare the maximum power at 8 ohms and 4 ohms. If the 4 ohm figure is almost double that at 8 ohms with minimal distortion then you have an amp that will cope well with whatever speaker you throw at it.

Can you explain what it is about an amplifier that enables it to double it's power into lower impedances?

Given that some loudspeakers have impedances that drop below 4 ohms, is the ability to double the power into this impedance enough?

 

[TrevC]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed. I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

He is a clueless simpleton, so I'm not bothered, although I have reported it for the hell of it. He fails to realise that exactly the same components are to be found in budget and top of the range high power amplifiers, which is emphatically not the case with speaker drive units and their enclosures.

Reported me for 'the hell of it'......female genital organ.

For the record, amps are built to a spec - resistors, capacitors, transformers and so on have different values to operate to various specification.

It's the reason why the spec sheets differ and why different values are given for output and so on....

Same components, different values - same reason we don't have one fuse fits all in domestic appliances.

You see what I mean...?

Feel free to report this too.....lol

More clueless gibberish, with the point missed yet again. Electronic components are cheap, and the same components are used almost universally.

So what if they are cheap?

Are you saying they all have the same electrical value?

So one standard is used for all electrical devices?

Is that what you are saying?

What on earth are you on about? Your question makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense.

Do the same electrical components that make up all the amps in use have the same electrical value.

Resistors, capacitors...etc

Yes or no?

Or you can continue to skirt around a straight reply.

No, your question really does make no sense. It displays your ignorance of electronics. Same electrical value ROFL.

Ask Vlad what's the the first thing he does when checking out an amp.

Ask him why.

Refer to the replys ref the NAD and the Sugden a few replys up.

You see what happens when your ignorance talks you into a corner.

Why you feel the need to pretend you have any technical knowledge I do not know.

Seriously.

Mouthy arrogant ignorance. I don't need to pretend. What do you mean by same electrical value? Explain.

 

[TrevC]

To tell if an amplifier has substance compare the maximum power at 8 ohms and 4 ohms. If the 4 ohm figure is almost double that at 8 ohms with minimal distortion then you have an amp that will cope well with whatever speaker you throw at it.

Can you explain what it is about an amplifier that enables it to double it's power into lower impedances?

Given that some loudspeakers have impedances that drop below 4 ohms, is the ability to double the power into this impedance enough?

It's simple ohms law. If an amplifier produces 8 volts into 8 ohms that's a current of 1 amp, so that's 8 watts, 8 volts into 4 ohms is 2 amps and therefore 16 watts. If it gets close to that you can be fairly certain that it will do a decent job at lower impedances.

 

[davedotco]

It's simple ohms law. If an amplifier produces 8 volts into 8 ohms that's 8 watts, 8 volts into 4 ohms is 16 watts. If it gets close to that you can be fairly certain that it will do a decent job at lower impedances.

That wasn't the question.

The question was, what is it about an amplifier that enables it to do that?

And given that some speakers drop substantially below 4 ohms, should not a competent amplifier be able to produce even more current to drive these loads correctly?

 

[TrevC]

It's simple ohms law. If an amplifier produces 8 volts into 8 ohms that's 8 watts, 8 volts into 4 ohms is 16 watts. If it gets close to that you can be fairly certain that it will do a decent job at lower impedances.

That wasn't the question.

The question was, what is it about an amplifier that enables it to do that?

And given that some speakers drop substantially below 4 ohms, should not a competent amplifier be able to produce even more current to drive these loads correctly?

It has to have a decent power supply that doesn't sag too much and a low output impedance / high damping factor, as you well know.

 

[davedotco]

That wasn't the question.

It has to have a decent power supply that doesn't sag too much and a low output impedance / high damping factor, as you well know.

Right......*good*

So, for an amplifier that delivers about 100 watts into an 8 ohm load, doubles its power into 4 ohms and does not sag when the impedance drops to around (say) 3 ohms in my B&Ws, how 'decent' does my power supply need to be?

I would not think that 150-200va would get the job done, what would you suggest?

 

[TrevC]

That wasn't the question.

It has to have a decent power supply that doesn't sag too much and a low output impedance / high damping factor, as you well know.

Right......*good*

So, for an amplifier that delivers about 100 watts into an 8 ohm load, doubles its power into 4 ohms and does not sag when the impedance drops to around (say) 3 ohms in my B&Ws, how 'decent' does my power supply need to be?

I would not think that 150-200va would get the job done, what would you suggest?

I would disagree, it would be fine. Music only requires intermittent high power, not continuous.

 

[Rico]

Quick question off topic.

So non of you guys believe in a God or something greater than yourself?

Do you all believe only in the science of men?

Firmly believe in God and love science