If all well designed amplifiers are difficult to distinguish

[Vladimir]

Sugden A21SE vs. NAD C 356BEE.

Which one is a better amplifier and why?

 

[tonky]

I have not actually heard either - no idea of the relative pricing. I would love to hear the Sugden . Based on its class A mystique that would be the one I would like as a gift (if anyone would like to donate!).

btw I am happy with my unitilite. If that's an example of a "tailored sound" - they've got it right for me!

(might not suit others but if you listen to it you wouldn't dislike it.)

tonky

 

[TrevC]

Sugden A21SE vs. NAD C 356BEE.

Which one is a better amplifier and why?

The NAD. If you want a hotplate buy a separate one, and the output is puny by modern standards. Apparently it's pure class A. Even the MF A1 wasn't pure class A, there's no point in it.

 

[Vladimir]

The NAD. If you want a hotplate buy a separate one, and the output is puny by modern standards. Apparently it's pure class A. Even the MF A1 wasn't pure class A, there's no point in it.

You choose one over the other for mere convenience? Come on Trev, you can do better than that. We are aiming at epiphany here!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The NAD. If you want a hotplate buy a separate one, and the output is puny by modern standards. Apparently it's pure class A. Even the MF A1 wasn't pure class A, there's no point in it.

You choose one over the other for mere convenience? Come on Trev, you can do better than that. We are aiming at epiphany here!

Lol......

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Im here as the newbie trying to get something from this discussion, what is a well made amp?

Not necessarily an easy question to answer. You might say a well made amp is:

* reliable

* kitted out with the functions you need in a way that makes it a pleasure to use

* capable of driving a wide range of speakers to acceptable SPLs in a fair-sized domestic space

* not marred by obvious design flaws (e.g. ugly appearance, excessive energy consumption, noisy fans etc)

You might say that all looks pretty straightforward. The thing is people don’t necessarily agree on the parameters of the above. What is a wide range of speakers? What functions do you need? How loud do you like to listen? What counts as ugliness? Etc etc.

?

Thanks for breaking it down for me, makes sense, this reminds me when i was a kid at school and we were discussing whats the best car, cant get to a defitite conclusion just on performance figures alone

?

But im thinking after reading all the coments that hifi amplifiers suffer more from deminished returns than speakers for example, spending extra 1K on your speakers will give you more in sond quality than 1K extra on the amp?

You are correct. If a cheap amp has the balls to drive your Nautilus speakers the sound will be far better than an expensive amp powering lesser speakers.

This I have to disagree with.....

A quality amp will drive budget speakers way beyond their budget tag.

A good budget amp will not do the same with quality speakers.

That's just wrong.

 

[jaxwired]

The vast majority of people that spend even $2k on speakers do not pair them with a $300 amp from best buy. Why? Because they think amps sound different.

IMHO the more pressing question should be why not? As demonstrated in the link I posted, or even look at CES in 2009 when they demo'd a Virtue One amp with a set of ClairAudient LSA speakers, it goes to show that a good amp can be a good amp, no matter what the price. And if a person has that much money and claims hifi as a hobby, why not have a punt at what is in essence peanuts and they may have fun and surprise themselves. At the very least it's a good excuse to have some friends around, mess around with gear and listen to some music.

I've always been of the opinion that sound quality and price do not always move in lock step. Sure, a person can buy some expensive and high quality speakers and try out some cheap amps for fun, but the motivation in that situation is to find a cheap amp that sounds as good as an expensive amp (something that is surely possible), but that is very different from buying any old cheap amp because all amps sound the same.

 

[SteveR750]

Makes sense, so the more expensive the amp, generaly the better made it is, more quality components, better at driving speakers, £2K amp better than £500 amp.

So all amp sound different, despite the studies and science. Im confused, maybe should start getting used to it in HiFi

*cray2* :'( :'-(

I think the argument being made is that a cheap well built amp contains the same high quality components and circuit design in one costing a lot more. It's not usual for a manufacturer of anything to knowingly supply a comparable product at a significantly lower than market price, unless they are intent on throwing away profit margins; either deliberately (whuy would you?) or unwittingly (hmm). That alone might influence your final purchase decision (either way!) So, in theory it might well be possible, in the real commercial world, highly unlikely.

 

[jaxwired]

I can tell you I've been involved in the hobby of 2 channel HiFi for many years and in that time I can't remember meeting anyone online or in person that had paired expensive speakers with a low priced receiver.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact2/t2.html

Like I say, I'm not trying to be funny, just that it does happen.

Whatever. I'm stating a general truth. There are exceptions to every general truth. NBA players are tall, but what about Isaiah Thomas. Please. The vast majority of people that spend even $2k on speakers do not pair them with a $300 amp from best buy. Why? Because they think amps sound different.

Exactly.

Never said any different. However, all these people that "think" amps sound different are not basing this opinion on sheer conjecture. Most people are basing this opinion on personal experience. So if they are all wrong, it's one of the worlds most prolific cases of mass delusion. Sure, the masses are wrong all throughout history, but rarely about things they experience with their own senses.

 

[Rico]

But im thinking after reading all the coments that hifi amplifiers suffer more from deminished returns than speakers for example, spending extra 1K on your speakers will give you more in sond quality than 1K extra on the amp?

That is very much the modern approach though personally I think it is hopelessly wrong.

People confuse 'different' with 'better', so often get things wrong. It is very easy to hear the difference between speakers. more difficult with amplifiers but because the differences in speakers are often of a 'presentational' nature it is often too easy to get carried away by the more bass, less bass or bright not bright issues and completely miss what the speaker is actually doing.

Amplifiers that drive and control the speakers are the issue here, a lot of inexpensive amplifiers do not do this very well and the result is the 'bright and boomy' signature that is all so common in budget and midfi systems.

This may sound great to the non-enthusiast but once you have been around the hi-fi block a few times you really should know better. If you really want to bring big, lasting improvements to your system, get a really good amplifier.

Makes sense, so the more expensive the amp, generaly the better made it is, more quality components, better at driving speakers, £2K amp better than £500 amp.

So all amps sound different, despite the studies and science. Im confused, maybe should start getting used to it in HiFi
*wacko*

 

[cheeseboy]

Sure, the masses are wrong all throughout history, but rarely about things they experience with their own senses.

erm, well that's total rubbish otherwise sesnory illusions wouldn't exist. Christ, one only has to see the hysteria caused by that bloody dress the other week on the internet. What about the endless amount of blind testing done with wines, coke etc that prove that people can't tell the difference when certain cues are removed?

 

[Electro]

If you eliminate one of your senses the rest are altered and will try to compensate and there is nothing you can do about it .

If you plug your ears things will look different, taste different , feel different etc etc , the same goes if you cover your eyes, all your other senses are immediately altered to compensate making any immediate critical judgement flawed and pointless .

If one sense is taken away for a long period of time the the rest of your senses will eventually adjust and settle so that you will be able to trust them again but that could take months if not years .

If you don't believe me try eating your dinner with a blindfold on tonight . *smile* .

 

[TrevC]

Im here as the newbie trying to get something from this discussion, what is a well made amp?

Not necessarily an easy question to answer. You might say a well made amp is:

* reliable

* kitted out with the functions you need in a way that makes it a pleasure to use

* capable of driving a wide range of speakers to acceptable SPLs in a fair-sized domestic space

* not marred by obvious design flaws (e.g. ugly appearance, excessive energy consumption, noisy fans etc)

You might say that all looks pretty straightforward. The thing is people don’t necessarily agree on the parameters of the above. What is a wide range of speakers? What functions do you need? How loud do you like to listen? What counts as ugliness? Etc etc.

Thanks for breaking it down for me, makes sense, this reminds me when i was a kid at school and we were discussing whats the best car, cant get to a defitite conclusion just on performance figures alone

But im thinking after reading all the coments that hifi amplifiers suffer more from deminished returns than speakers for example, spending extra 1K on your speakers will give you more in sond quality than 1K extra on the amp?

You are correct. If a cheap amp has the balls to drive your Nautilus speakers the sound will be far better than an expensive amp powering lesser speakers.

This I have to disagree with.....

A quality amp will drive budget speakers way beyond their budget tag.

A good budget amp will not do the same with quality speakers.

That's just wrong.

Cobblers as usual. Good electronics can be built very cheaply without compromise, quality speakers cost.

 

[TrevC]

I can tell you I've been involved in the hobby of 2 channel HiFi for many years and in that time I can't remember meeting anyone online or in person that had paired expensive speakers with a low priced receiver.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact2/t2.html

Like I say, I'm not trying to be funny, just that it does happen.

Whatever. I'm stating a general truth. There are exceptions to every general truth. NBA players are tall, but what about Isaiah Thomas. Please. The vast majority of people that spend even $2k on speakers do not pair them with a $300 amp from best buy. Why? Because they think amps sound different.

Exactly.

Never said any different. However, all these people that "think" amps sound different are not basing this opinion on sheer conjecture. Most people are basing this opinion on personal experience. So if they are all wrong, it's one of the worlds most prolific cases of mass delusion. Sure, the masses are wrong all throughout history, but rarely about things they experience with their own senses.

If something looks nice and is also expensive one is predisposed to assume it will sound better that something that is cheap, even if the performance is actually the same. It's human nature and the placebo effect. If you think hundreds of people can't be wrong you only have to look at religious faith.

 

[TrevC]

Makes sense, so the more expensive the amp, generaly the better made it is, more quality components, better at driving speakers, £2K amp better than £500 amp.

So all amp sound different, despite the studies and science. Im confused, maybe should start getting used to it in HiFi

*cray2* :'( :'-(

I think the argument being made is that a cheap well built amp contains the same high quality components and circuit design in one costing a lot more. It's not usual for a manufacturer of anything to knowingly supply a comparable product at a significantly lower than market price, unless they are intent on throwing away profit margins; either deliberately (whuy would you?) or unwittingly (hmm). That alone might influence your final purchase decision (either way!) So, in theory it might well be possible, in the real commercial world, highly unlikely.

Mass production is another reason for large cost differences. A small boutique hifi electronics company simply doesn't have the economy of scale of production that a large manufacturer does. Flat screen TVs are a case in point. They used to be both poor quality and expensive, now they are good quality and inexpensive because of the economy of scale.

 

[TrevC]

The NAD. If you want a hotplate buy a separate one, and the output is puny by modern standards. Apparently it's pure class A. Even the MF A1 wasn't pure class A, there's no point in it.

You choose one over the other for mere convenience? Come on Trev, you can do better than that. We are aiming at epiphany here!

Lol......

I see little point in producing an amplifier deliberately designed so that it wastes electricity and you burn your hand on it. Stereophile weren't exactly blown away either.

 

[SteveR750]

If something looks nice and is also expensive one is predisposed to assume it will sound better that something that is cheap, even if the performance is actually the same. It's human nature and the placebo effect. If you think hundreds of people can't be wrong you only have to look at religious faith.

Now this I do agree with, with that caveat. The problem is Trev, that when technically minded folk make legitimate statements, they get misinterpreted, and suddenly there is a new religion of any old amp will do as they all sound the same. They don't, because they are not all designed equally (well).

What's more important, is what measurable criteria indicates "quality"? Most of us are familiar with power, and the difference between voltage gain and current gain design and its significance on handling varying speaker impedance; distortion (harmonic and non harmonic), but what about rise time? slew rate? Should we consider the size of the input transformer, the output stage capacitors, what quality of transistors? In the 70s full of Japanese amps that were marketed on their specifications only, crammed full of specs, MOSFETs, J-FETs and other wondrous components promising aural delight, only they didn't, as NAD demonstrated with it's 3020. Maybe though they were nearly right, and ultimately we were all fooled by Linn, Naim et al of the flat earth society of the 80s that specs were meaningless, just listen to the music!

So, what else are we missing off the spec sheets to make that informed choice, because most of us don't want to get rippped off, we want the biggest bang for the buck, whilst accepting that you usually get what you pay for!

 

[davedotco]

I can not recall any respected figure in the industry stating categorically that all amplifiers sound the same, didn't happen.

What did happen, many years ago now, was that such luminaries such as Peter Walker (Quad) and Julian Hirsch (Stereo Review) conducted a series of listening tests in which no-one was able to distinquish between tha amplifiers being used.

The knowledge gained in those experiments can be summed up in the phrase......

"All competently designed power amplifiers, working within their design parameters will be indistinquisable in a level matched, blind test". This was true then and it is true now.

When an enrhusiast hears a definite difference between two amplifiers in a controlled test, then 'something' is going on, most likely one of the following explanations.

1) The amplifier is not "competently designed".

2) The amplifier has been deliberately 'voiced' to sound different, perhaps to conform to a house sound.

3) The amplifier is working outside it's "design parameters", probably because of the demands made on it by the system.

Simple really.

 

[SteveR750]

Mass production is another reason for large cost differences. A small boutique hifi electronics company simply doesn't have the economy of scale of production that a large manufacturer does. Flat screen TVs are a case in point. They used to be both poor quality and expensive, now they are good quality and inexpensive because of the economy of scale.

Yes, that might explain some of the delta in pricing, but I don't believe that the difference in volumes between a boutique manufacturer, and a Rotel or NAD are as big as the difference between a NAD/Rotel and something Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic will churn out in the hundreds of thousands for the AV or in-car OE and aftermarkets. Plus, there is a market price, and a business would be foolish to undercut it unnecessarily. The boutique manufacturer in his garden shed is more likely to make that mistake

 

[cheeseboy]

I can not recall any respected figure in the industry stating categorically that all amplifiers sound the same, didn't happen.

What did happen, many years ago now, was that such luminaries such as Peter Walker (Quad) and Julian Hirsch (Stereo Review) conducted a series of listening tests in which no-one was able to distinquish between tha amplifiers being used.

The knowledge gained in those experiments can be summed up in the phrase......

"All competently designed power amplifiers, working within their design parameters will be indistinquisable in a level matched, blind test". This was true then and it is true now.

yup, funny how one thing can suddenly get changed in to something else, usually when people get angry when their beliefs are challenged. Speaker cable threads spring to mind, when it's suggested that cable over a certain specification should yield next to no audiable difference in a blind test, all of sudden people start crying about how all magazines or whatever should be shut down because all cables sound the same so why don't we all use bell wire, which, in fact, noboby has ever said, yet some people would still use it as a stick to beat somebody in a discussion.

 

[MeanandGreen]

Sugden A21SE vs. NAD C 356BEE.

Which one is a better amplifier and why?

Out of the two I'd choose the NAD. I've no experience with Sugden, but the quoted specs for it are a bit vague and very poor for the price IMO.

I do admit I'm biased towards NAD amps.

High power & low distortion at 20hz-20Khz both channels driven, good S/N, much more flexable conectivity with more inputs, plus a digital input (with the optional DAC module), headphone jack, bypassable tone controls, the usual pre/power conectivity (I know the Sugden has that too), but the NAD gives pretty much everything you could ask for in an amplifer. All it lacks is a phono stage, but NAD make separate ones anyway.

NAD tells you what the power consumption is, Sugden don't as far as I can see.

Sugden also don't quote the THD and they don't tell you how they measured the 30W output. Yes at 8 ohms with both channels, but at what frequency range and with how much distortion?

Personally I wouldn't even consider the Sugden. £2400 for the on paper specs I've just read, no thanks!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Im here as the newbie trying to get something from this discussion, what is a well made amp?

Not necessarily an easy question to answer. You might say a well made amp is:

* reliable

* kitted out with the functions you need in a way that makes it a pleasure to use

* capable of driving a wide range of speakers to acceptable SPLs in a fair-sized domestic space

* not marred by obvious design flaws (e.g. ugly appearance, excessive energy consumption, noisy fans etc)

You might say that all looks pretty straightforward. The thing is people don’t necessarily agree on the parameters of the above. What is a wide range of speakers? What functions do you need? How loud do you like to listen? What counts as ugliness? Etc etc.

?

Thanks for breaking it down for me, makes sense, this reminds me when i was a kid at school and we were discussing whats the best car, cant get to a defitite conclusion just on performance figures alone

?

But im thinking after reading all the coments that hifi amplifiers suffer more from deminished returns than speakers for example, spending extra 1K on your speakers will give you more in sond quality than 1K extra on the amp?

You are correct. If a cheap amp has the balls to drive your Nautilus speakers the sound will be far better than an expensive amp powering lesser speakers.

This I have to disagree with.....

A quality amp will drive budget speakers way beyond their budget tag.

A good budget amp will not do the same with quality speakers.

That's just wrong.

Cobblers as usual. Good electronics can be built very cheaply without compromise, quality speakers cost.

Man, you're ignorant. You do know the drive units in your speakers are electrical devices, right?

They, like your amp are built to cost. Like amps these devices are not equal.

You have a Yamaha as500 - sure I read that somewhere.

If we take SteveR750's set for example and replaced his Hegel with the as500 to drive his ATC's how do you think it would cope?

Let's use a demanding piece of music at high volume?

I bet the Hegel could control your speakers better than you've heard your as500 do at high volume.

Actually you'll say they'd sound the same....

You are seriously stupid.

 

[cheeseboy]

You are seriously stupid.

personal insults are not needed. I know the mods don't seem to care about them anymore, but even so, no need.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Sugden A21SE vs. NAD C 356BEE.

Which one is a better amplifier and why?

Out of the two I'd choose the NAD. I've no experience with Sugden, but the quoted specs for it are a bit vague and very poor for the price IMO.?

I do admit I'm biased towards NAD amps.

High power & low distortion at 20hz-20Khz both channels driven, good S/N, much more flexable conectivity with more inputs, plus a digital input (with the optional DAC module), headphone jack, bypassable tone controls, the usual pre/power conectivity (I know the Sugden has that too), but the NAD gives pretty much everything you could ask for in an amplifer. All it lacks is a phono stage, but NAD make separate ones anyway.?

NAD tells you what the power consumption is, Sugden don't as far as I can see.

Sugden also don't quote the THD and they don't tell you how they measured the 30W output. Yes at 8 ohms with both channels, but at what frequency range and with how much distortion??

Personally I wouldn't even consider the Sugden. £2400 for the on paper specs I've just read, no thanks!

Wouldn't you at least want to hear it for yourself first?

NAD make good kit, but c'mon

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Quick question off topic.

So non of you guys believe in a God or something greater than yourself?

Do you all believe only in the science of men?