If all well designed amplifiers are difficult to distinguish

[TrevC]

It's all really rather simple, two amplifiers that provide the same output power at the same impedance spread, and have a nice flat frequency response with the same low distortion will sound the same regardless of price, whether it be a Bryston or a Behringer. The Matsui nonsense is an attempt to muddy the water.

 

[cheeseboy]

genuine question time if sombody would be so kind...

Do the amplifiers have to be the same class, or are there marked characteristics between each class or would some classes yield the same result?

And what about valve amps? I know that especially in the guitar amp world, changing them valves is a nice way to change the amp, or is that a whole different ballgame altogether?

 

[JoelSim]

The beyerdynamic is all one word and is a headphone amp.

Oh wow. Why is it £1000? Is it 10 times better than the Objective 2 amp made from kit for £100? *scratch_one-s_head*

Dunno mate, maybe get a pair of Chinese AKGs.

 

[Vladimir]

Dunno mate, maybe get a pair of Chinese AKGs.

Ooo. Getting nasty now. *nea*

BTW I have a Chinese SMSL headphone amp and DAC. Love them. *ok*

 

[jaxwired]

It's all really rather simple, two amplifiers that provide the same output power at the same impedance spread, and have a nice flat frequency response with the same low distortion will sound the same regardless of price, whether it be a Bryston or a Behringer. The Matsui nonsense is an attempt to muddy the water.

Trouble is, 99.9% of all hifi enthusiasts don't agree. Pretty much everyone that spends time in this hobby thinks that amplifiers sound different even when matched as you have suggested. Just look at what we buy.

 

[JoelSim]

I don't agree mate, sorry. Why is a £300 amp different from an amp on a Matsui? Where do we draw that line? £5, £300, 5,000?

I'm pretty sure that was the question asked in the first post - "What is a well designed amplifier?" Do you consider the Matsui amp to be well designed or is it compromised to meet a price point? I think you know full well what's being discussed here, you're just being awkward.

Isn't everything in life designed to a price point? Whether that price point is own label or Heinz? Or Beats perhaps where they have to factor in the freebies and paid-for celebrities? I know my support is for those who design to a price point accounting for their R&D costs. Even if, as it appears those R&D costs are totally wasted as all amps sound the same.

Silly me.

 

[JoelSim]

Dunno mate, maybe get a pair of Chinese AKGs.

Ooo. Getting nasty now. *nea*

BTW I have a Chinese SMSL headphone amp and DAC. Love them. *ok*

Not at all. You were the one mentioning Chinese build quality in a negative way. Quite frankly it has nothing to do with the nationality, it's about the quality of components amongst other things. There is no reason why a Chinese-made product will be worse than a German-made product in theory. Ah and then there is the building to a price point which is far more than just who builds it and their associated wages.

 

[cheeseboy]

Trouble is, 99.9% of all hifi enthusiasts don't agree. Pretty much everyone that spends time in this hobby thinks that amplifiers sound different even when matched as you have suggested.

....erm, genuinely not trying to be funny, but if you've read the thread, then you'd see that statement isn't correct, or pop over to over forums where the same conversations happen etc.

 

[fr0g]

The beyerdynamic is all one word and is a headphone amp.

Oh wow. Why is it £1000? Is it 10 times better than the Objective 2 amp made from kit for £100? *scratch_one-s_head*

Dunno mate, maybe get a pair of Chinese AKGs.

Again, this is speaker technology, a whole different ballgame.

 

[jaxwired]

Trouble is, 99.9% of all hifi enthusiasts don't agree. Pretty much everyone that spends time in this hobby thinks that amplifiers sound different even when matched as you have suggested.

....erm, genuinely not trying to be funny, but if you've read the thread, then you'd see that statement isn't correct, or pop over to over forums where the same conversations happen etc.

Well, I don't have the real stats and neither do you. I can tell you I've been involved in the hobby of 2 channel HiFi for many years and in that time I can't remember meeting anyone online or in person that had paired expensive speakers with a low priced receiver. Seems to me, people in large numbers tend to pair their expensive speakers (like Harbeth) with expensive amps. Now, maybe all these people are foolish and could get identical sound from a $300 amp, but it appears to me the vast majority of consumers do not think so.

 

[fr0g]

Dunno mate, maybe get a pair of Chinese AKGs.

Ooo. Getting nasty now. *nea*

BTW I have a Chinese SMSL headphone amp and DAC. Love them. *ok*

Not at all. You were the one mentioning Chinese build quality in a negative way. Quite frankly it has nothing to do with the nationality, it's about the quality of components amongst other things. There is no reason why a Chinese-made product will be worse than a German-made product in theory. Ah and then there is the building to a price point which is far more than just who builds it and their associated wages.

Spot on. There is no reason why a Chinese made component will be worse.

But we are assuming a basic level of quality.

With digital playback it's peanuts, which is why a phone or a budget DVD/blueray player is or rather can be, considered Hi-Fi.

Amps are pretty simple to make transparent these days. It can be done on a chip even at fairly low power.

So including the all-in-one which is not just built to a price point, but built pretty much disregarding any idea of "sound quality" is fallacious. That isn't the point.

 

[Vladimir]

Not at all. You were the one mentioning Chinese build quality in a negative way. Quite frankly it has nothing to do with the nationality, it's about the quality of components amongst other things. There is no reason why a Chinese-made product will be worse than a German-made product in theory. Ah and then there is the building to a price point which is far more than just who builds it and their associated wages.

PRC made AKG is poo IME. I own many Chinese made things that I like, including speakers, amplifiers, DACs and lots more. Why would you give a poke at my personal issue with AKG cans when I mentioned USA/UK product - the O2 amp? How low can you go, Joe?

 

[cheeseboy]

I can tell you I've been involved in the hobby of 2 channel HiFi for many years and in that time I can't remember meeting anyone online or in person that had paired expensive speakers with a low priced receiver.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact2/t2.html

Like I say, I'm not trying to be funny, just that it does happen.

 

[CnoEvil]

I can tell you I've been involved in the hobby of 2 channel HiFi for many years and in that time I can't remember meeting anyone online or in person that had paired expensive speakers with a low priced receiver. Seems to me, people in large numbers tend to pair their expensive speakers (like Harbeth) with expensive amps. Now, maybe all these people are foolish and could get identical sound from a $300 amp, but it appears to me the vast majority of consumers do not think so.

Getting people to list the amps they've heard (and in what systems), in order to give perspective/balance to their stance, can be enlightening.

 

[Vladimir]

Snobs galore. *biggrin*

 

[jaxwired]

I can tell you I've been involved in the hobby of 2 channel HiFi for many years and in that time I can't remember meeting anyone online or in person that had paired expensive speakers with a low priced receiver.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact2/t2.html

Like I say, I'm not trying to be funny, just that it does happen.

Whatever. I'm stating a general truth. There are exceptions to every general truth. NBA players are tall, but what about Isaiah Thomas. Please. The vast majority of people that spend even $2k on speakers do not pair them with a $300 amp from best buy. Why? Because they think amps sound different.

 

[fr0g]

I can tell you I've been involved in the hobby of 2 channel HiFi for many years and in that time I can't remember meeting anyone online or in person that had paired expensive speakers with a low priced receiver.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact2/t2.html

Like I say, I'm not trying to be funny, just that it does happen.

Whatever. I'm stating a general truth. There are exceptions to every general truth. NBA players are tall, but what about Isaiah Thomas. Please. The vast majority of people that spend even $2k on speakers do not pair them with a $300 amp from best buy. Why? Because they think amps sound different.

Exactly.

 

[CnoEvil]

Snobs galore. *biggrin*

Snobs and know-it-alls make for an explosive mix. *bomb*

 

[Vladimir]

Snobs and know-it-alls make for an explosive mix. *bomb*

All fellow keyboard warriors at heart.

 

[CnoEvil]

Snobs and know-it-alls make for an explosive mix. *bomb*

All fellow keyboard warriors at heart.

At heart, I'm more of a quill pen and parchment.

 

[cheeseboy]

The vast majority of people that spend even $2k on speakers do not pair them with a $300 amp from best buy. Why? Because they think amps sound different.

IMHO the more pressing question should be why not? As demonstrated in the link I posted, or even look at CES in 2009 when they demo'd a Virtue One amp with a set of ClairAudient LSA speakers, it goes to show that a good amp can be a good amp, no matter what the price. And if a person has that much money and claims hifi as a hobby, why not have a punt at what is in essence peanuts and they may have fun and surprise themselves. At the very least it's a good excuse to have some friends around, mess around with gear and listen to some music.

 

[Romulus]

Just to say thank god amplifiers sound different, purists would say the ultimate sound is to hear as if the 'band' is playing in your room with all the pros and cons included in the sound as you would hear it live (sort of top ATC monitor speaker sound) but not every one would like that sound, so thank god for different presentations in HiFi products (eg Naim sound).

 

[Rico]

This thread helps to stop me thiknking that I need to spend more on an amp to get a better sound, Nice to know that if I get a well made amp at £400 I don't have to spend £1000

In the end for me listening to the music is the hobby, not showing off the brand of the actual seperates on the rack..

Leftover cash shall be spent on plane tickets

 

[SteveR750]

Wow! What a fight!

I'd agree this, IF an amp is not clipping (and that's a bigger if than you might think), IF the load is identical, IF the gain / loudness is identical (which it would be if the load was), IF it was conducted blindly, then it's feasible that a WELL designed amp might sound the same as another. However, WELL designed usually requires a bit of time and effort, which if the business is run properly means there's an associated price. The problem is that real world well designed speakers that are lower in coloration and distortion are more difficult to drive, this requiring more time and effort into designing and building an amp that is capable of doing so.

In truth, "hi fi" is in absolute terms pretty minimal gains for outrageous cost, and to our friends and family who are not quite so obsessive, we are alll "audiofools", even spending a a couple of £k on a system is for many people bonkers. Great, it's a hobby, a release, nothing more. If I want really serious music then I'll go and watch it or play it myself. Life is really too short to take this all quite so seriously! I never hear cyclists arguing that a cheap aluminium bike is as good as £££k carbon fibre model (though there is planety of inverse snobbery - envy perhaps?), I never hear guitar players trying to denounce Gibson and Les Paul as mere foo (other than a sad minority who being unable to ever afford to buy one will try to justify their plight in such a negative way). In contrast, large parts of this forum these days reads like a string of youtube comments.

 

[SteveR750]

This thread helps to stop me thiknking that I need to spend more on an amp to get a better sound, Nice to know that if I get a well made amp at £400 I don't have to spend £1000

In the end for me listening to the music is the hobby, not showing off the brand of the actual seperates on the rack..

Leftover cash shall be spent on plane tickets

And how do you intend to verify this? I'm genuinely interested.