If all well designed amplifiers are difficult to distinguish

[SteveR750]

Better as in quality (special watts) or quantity (more watts) or both?

Why did you not buy a much much cheaper amp then? The K2 is way overpriced if they all sound the same.

Cheaper, as powerfull and not for PA use. Any recommendations that are easily obtainable worldwide? *scratch_one-s_head*

Why not? They all sound the same after all, so the conclusion is that every amp works as a straight wire with gain and adds nothing detrimental to the output whatever the listening volume or speaker load.

Ebay global shipping programme give you access to a reasonable range of products, but I suspect you're the one that's been taken for a ride, as you don't actually believe there is any benefit in spending a lot of money an an amp. A K2 is an expensive option, whichever country you reside in.

 

[CnoEvil]

It most definitely aint placebo...

YOU ARE RIGHT! *dirol*

 

[Vladimir]

Why not?

Ugly, most have fans and lack facilities I require (inputs, outputs, standby, remote etc.). Nothing to do with actual sonics.

Ebay global shipping programme give you access to a reasonable range of products, but I suspect you're the one that's been taken for a ride, as you don't actually believe there is any benefit in spending a lot of money an an amp. A K2 is an expensive option, whichever country you reside in.

Ebay is the worst place to buy anything higher priced or in large parcells if you live where I live. Large shipping costs, high customs and taxes for imports, no buyer protection on ebay/paypal behalf, and no warranty and service without an actual dealer here. Buying a large parcell such as a 14kg+ amplifier will cost me almost as much in other additional expenses. Also to note, only recently (2014) we got PayPal where I live. Online shopping was almost a non-option for me, except for books, CDs and subscriptions.

I think you are lost somewhere in your own dimension in this discussion. You are neither elitist special watts chap, nor you are engineer minded objectivist. You want both camps to conform to your somewhere inbetween position? Not gonna happen. You are just background noise Steve.

 

[SteveR750]

Why not?

Ugly, most have fans and lack facilities I require (inputs, outputs, standby, remote etc.). Nothing to do with actual sonics.

Ebay global shipping programme give you access to a reasonable range of products, but I suspect you're the one that's been taken for a ride, as you don't actually believe there is any benefit in spending a lot of money an an amp. A K2 is an expensive option, whichever country you reside in.

Ebay is the worst place to buy anything higher priced or in large parcells if you live where I live. Large shipping costs, high customs and taxes for imports, no buyer protection on ebay/paypal behalf, and no warranty and service without an actual dealer here. Buying a large parcell such as a 14kg+ amplifier will cost me almost as much in other additional expenses. Also to note, only recently (2014) we got PayPal where I live. Online shopping was almost a non-option for me, except for books, CDs and subscriptions.

I think you are lost somewhere in your own dimension in this discussion. You are neither elitist special watts chap, nor you are engineer minded objectivist. You want both camps to conform to your somewhere inbetween position? Not gonna happen. You are just background noise Steve.

Haha

Priceless Vlad, love it! If being an objective minded engineer means you start to ignore your senses and close your mind, well yeah you're right. Personally I think the correct process is observation theory test and validate. You can neither ignore observation any more than you can ignore quantitative data. What we tend to do in these forums is get as far as theorising, without any data to confirm opinion. Honestly, if you could prove that your K2 is sonically identical to my Hegel then I'll gladly accept it's psychoacoustics, but I don't think you can. In fact, unless you're coming to my house and have the use of the right measurement equipment and facilities you won't be able to.

 

[Helmut80]

I prefer white wine. I also prefer big beefy, high current class A monoblocks. What does it all mean?

 

[dim_span]

I prefer white wine. I also prefer big beefy, high current class A monoblocks. What does it all mean?

you like big white women?

 

[Vladimir]

What does it all mean?

Whatever you want it to mean. Feel free to grab the mic.

 

[MeanandGreen]

Is that all amplifiers do not necessarily sound the same. If there are big differences though I put it down to a major flaw somewhere.

I've heard 7 different amps over the last 20 odd years, the biggest differences were when the amp was either quite poor on paper specs or faulty. The worst amp I ever heard was a Goodmans GSA 650, it was an extremely dull, lifeless and harsh sound. From the top of my head I remember It had a rated THD of 1% at 1KHz at it's ratted maximum output power of 50W into 8 ohms, pretty shoddy really. It was my first Hi Fi amplifer when I was a teenager. I had it connected with some Jamo D115 speakers, even back then I knew it was not how music was supposed to sound. The same Jamo speakers fed by an ageing Pioneer A-110 sounded completley different, and this was when comparing at normal listening levels nothing was overdriven into clipping. The fact I could set the tone controls flat on the Pioneer and enjoy a dynamic sound was a huge improvement.

The Pioneer was getting old and started to give trouble so in came an Ariston AX-910, I was blown away by it at the time. It highlighted how ropey the Pioneer was sounding. It was so cheap yet it sounded so damn good! The most 'Hi Fi' of amps I'd encountered so far! Which brings me onto price...

The Ariston was about £60 and I did a direct comparison against a Marantz PM 66SE which was about £250. The Marantz did not show the Ariston a clean pair of heels with the same source and speakers, despite being almost 5 times the cost of the Ariston. I don't think price always brings performance with it.

I've never owned an amplifer costing more than £350 RRP. I don't think it's necessary personally, the only audible flaws I can detect now are with recordings not the kit. I couldn't reliably distinguish between my NAD C350 or C326 BEE blind.

Once we start getting into incredibly low THD with a flat frequency responce and similar levels of output power they should all be pretty transparent. High fidelity is transparent right?

TBH if that Ariston AX-910 had the facilities I need with inputs/outputs, headphone socket, remote and power, I'd happily live with it's sound today as I still have it. The main reason I upgraded from the most budget of amplifiers into what some may call 'Mid-Fi' is because of facilities. Mid-Fi sounds incredibly good to me and it clearly highlights the differences between source material.

 

[Vladimir]

Haha

Priceless Vlad, love it! If being an objective minded engineer means you start to ignore your senses and close your mind, well yeah you're right. Personally I think the correct process is observation theory test and validate. You can neither ignore observation any more than you can ignore quantitative data. What we tend to do in these forums is get as far as theorising, without any data to confirm opinion. Honestly, if you could prove that your K2 is sonically identical to my Hegel then I'll gladly accept it's psychoacoustics, but I don't think you can. In fact, unless you're coming to my house and have the use of the right measurement equipment and facilities you won't be able to.

I don't have to prove a negative.

"Observation theory test and validate". You observed, now test and validate your claims that differences exist between modern decently made SS amps. I haven't observed such qualitative difference existed. Why would I prove myself wrong? You prove yourself right. *wink*

Gwan.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

That makes no sense.

If nothing is moved only a single component is changed what then?

Imaging (and soundstage) (imo) are created by the way a recording is miked up (eg. in stereo), and then this illusion is recreated in the home. If your speakers/seating postion are ideal and the image is ruined after you replace a component, then that component has introduced some artifact that has degraded the illusion eg. sloppy, tuneless bass.

Like I said some time ago, I believe the imaging is in the recording, and equipment has to try and preserve it....if it wasn't in the recording, the equipment couldn't recreate it in the first place.

This makes sense to me, even if you don't agree.

What SteveR750 said.

Nothing changes on your medium of choice.

That said, amps either sound the same or they don't - no 'buts' or ifs.... Level matching, honestly.

Like Hagel showed at the show, comparing their flag ship amp with the entry level amp.

One @ 150wpc the other 75wpc set to what they considerd the best setting - 2k plus v 1k plus respectively it's nor placebo.

And Vlad like the guy who claimed the earth is round you do have to 'prove it'.

So decide

 

[pauln]

Nothing changes on your medium of choice.

That said, amps either sound the same or they don't - no 'buts' or ifs.... Level matching, honestly.

Like Hagel showed at the show, comparing their flag ship amp with the entry level amp.

One @ 150wpc the other 75wpc set to what they considerd the best setting - 2k plus v 1k plus respectively it's nor placebo.

And Vlad like the guy who claimed the earth is round you do have to 'prove it'.

So decide

While you decide to pick and choose, according to what fits your view of the world, what aspects of proven science you accept or not - in this case how our ears work. Unbelievable.

 

[cheeseboy]

this has always made me wonder. Surely there's a finite point where something becomes hifi nirvana of audio transparency, after all, isn't that the holy grail for amps.

If we take the very rough guide that *in theory* the more you spend, the better, more transparent the amp. (it's a big if I know...) Surely that would mean that once you get past a certain price point that all amps should start to sound the same, ie, transparent, after all, they are meant to be the pinacle of hifi, and in amp terms, that would meant totally transparent no?

So what is happening? If there is so many differences between amps, then does that mean that none of them can be judged as hifi as they are sounding different, when in fact they *should* all sound the same if they are doing their job properly?

 

[matt49]

this has always made me wonder. Surely there's a finite point where something becomes hifi nirvana of audio transparency, after all, isn't that the holy grail for amps.

If we take the very rough guide that *in theory* the more you spend, the better, more transparent the amp. (it's a big if I know...) Surely that would mean that once you get past a certain price point that all amps should start to sound the same, ie, transparent, after all, they are meant to be the pinacle of hifi, and in amp terms, that would meant totally transparent no?

So what is happening? If there is so many differences between amps, then does that mean that none of them can be judged as hifi as they are sounding different, when in fact they *should* all sound the same if they are doing their job properly?

It’s not helpful that people often use the term ‘transparent’ without qualifying it (not blaming you for this, cheeseboy).

By ‘transparent’ one might mean one or more of three things:

(i) Physically or absolutely transparent

(ii) Measurably transparent

(iii) Audibly transparent

(i) is an impossibility by the laws of physics.

(ii) means that the available measuring equipment isn’t able to measure any lack of transparency. It doesn’t mean that in principle no measurement would be able to reveal a lack of transparency.

(iii) means that a given listening test (or series of tests) wasn’t able to identify any lack of transparency. It might also mean that any lack of transparency is definitively beyond the capacity of human hearing.

 

[cheeseboy]

It’s not helpful that people often use the term ‘transparent’ without qualifying it (not blaming you for this, cheeseboy).

yep, I totally agree, however, from my piddly brain point of view, it still wouldn't change the fact that going by the rule that in theory more cash = "better" amp then the more money you spend, then less differences one should hear, up to a point where there should be no audiable differences.

 

[Helmut80]

It’s not helpful that people often use the term ‘transparent’ without qualifying it (not blaming you for this, cheeseboy).

yep, I totally agree, however, from my piddly brain point of view, it still wouldn't change the fact that going by the rule that in theory more cash = "better" amp then the more money you spend, then less differences one should hear, up to a point where there should be no audiable differences.

But this presupposes that 'better' is objective, when it seems that, particularly in high-end/ultra high end (say £20k+ components), a 'house sound' is often cultivated deliberately (or at least the direct effect of a specific design philosophy).

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Nothing changes on your medium of choice.

That said, amps either sound the same or they don't - no 'buts' or ifs.... Level matching, honestly.

Like Hagel showed at the show, comparing their flag ship amp with the entry level amp.

One @ 150wpc the other 75wpc set to what they considerd the best setting - 2k plus v 1k plus respectively it's nor placebo.

And Vlad like the guy who claimed the earth is round you do have to 'prove it'.

So decide

While you decide to pick and choose, according to what fits your view of the world, what aspects of proven science you accept or not - in this case how our ears work. Unbelievable.

Pick and choose what?

How our ears work, please expand?

 

[cheeseboy]

But this presupposes that 'better' is objective, when it seems that, particularly in high-end/ultra high end (say £20k+ components), a 'house sound' is often cultivated deliberately (or at least the direct effect of a specific design philosophy).

I agree, that's why I put better in quotes.

My point still stands though, surely all those amps claiming to be proper hifi should all sound the same, unless as you say, they are being intentionally tweaked to sound different, in which case, maybe they aren't hifi.

 

[matt49]

My point still stands though, surely all those amps claiming to be proper hifi should all sound the same, unless as you say, they are being intentionally tweaked to sound different, in which case, maybe they aren't hifi.

Yes. You might compare science. You'd expect all serious scientists to believe that science ought to converge on the truth. At least, if any scientist said otherwise, you'd think they were pretty odd.

 

[pauln]

Nothing changes on your medium of choice.

That said, amps either sound the same or they don't - no 'buts' or ifs.... Level matching, honestly.

Like Hagel showed at the show, comparing their flag ship amp with the entry level amp.

One @ 150wpc the other 75wpc set to what they considerd the best setting - 2k plus v 1k plus respectively it's nor placebo.

And Vlad like the guy who claimed the earth is round you do have to 'prove it'.

So decide

While you decide to pick and choose, according to what fits your view of the world, what aspects of proven science you accept or not - in this case how our ears work. Unbelievable.

Pick and choose what?

How our ears work, please expand?

Look it up. That's how I learn things. It's quite easy these days - don't have to go down to the reference library any more. It's all on the internet. Why do you think everyone makes such a big deal of level matching? Yet you choose to dismiss it - on what basis? Do you just make it up as you go along to suit your weird ideas? Honestly.

 

[JoelSim]

I can't believe some of the posts on this thread. Some people just seem to be contrary, perhaps take the earmuffs off and listen to some different amps. Go for a demo and get over it.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Nothing changes on your medium of choice.

That said, amps either sound the same or they don't - no 'buts' or ifs.... Level matching, honestly.

Like Hagel showed at the show, comparing their flag ship amp with the entry level amp.

One @ 150wpc the other 75wpc set to what they considerd the best setting - 2k plus v 1k plus respectively it's nor placebo.

And Vlad like the guy who claimed the earth is round you do have to 'prove it'.

So decide

While you decide to pick and choose, according to what fits your view of the world, what aspects of proven science you accept or not - in this case how our ears work. Unbelievable.

Pick and choose what?

How our ears work, please expand?

Look it up. That's how I learn things. It's quite easy these days - don't have to go down to the reference library any more. It's all on the internet. Why do you think everyone makes such a big deal of level matching? Yet you choose to dismiss it - on what basis? Do you just make it up as you go along to suit your weird ideas? Honestly.

What!?

Level matching is a get out of jail card, it's a disclaimer.

In a laboratory level match all you want - in real world applications it's a nonsense. You want to embrace it to win an argument on the internet, fine.....knock yourself out.

In a domestic setting given the choice of two amps - 1 costing a few quid will separate instruments, resolve complex mixes, project a clean 3d image deliver a robust soundstage the other costing a bag of chips Will screech, distort, clip with a poorly attenuated volume control knob.....but all that can be ignored if we level match to argue they sound the same.

how do you compare them?

Give it a little thought. Saying 2 amps sound the same means they sound the same.

No 'if we level match...'

Either a £95 pound amp will deliver all a £1k amp will or they do not sound the same.

What's unbelievable is reading you guys trying to drag a 'science' into real world situations.

 

[Laurens_B]

Nothing changes on your medium of choice.

That said, amps either sound the same or they don't - no 'buts' or ifs.... Level matching, honestly.

Like Hagel showed at the show, comparing their flag ship amp with the entry level amp.

One @ 150wpc the other 75wpc set to what they considerd the best setting - 2k plus v 1k plus respectively it's nor placebo.

And Vlad like the guy who claimed the earth is round you do have to 'prove it'.

So decide

While you decide to pick and choose, according to what fits your view of the world, what aspects of proven science you accept or not - in this case how our ears work. Unbelievable.

Pick and choose what?

How our ears work, please expand?

Look it up. That's how I learn things. It's quite easy these days - don't have to go down to the reference library any more. It's all on the internet. Why do you think everyone makes such a big deal of level matching? Yet you choose to dismiss it - on what basis? Do you just make it up as you go along to suit your weird ideas? Honestly.

What!?

Level matching is a get out of jail card, it's a disclaimer.

In a laboratory level match all you want - in real world applications it's a nonsense. You want to embrace it to win an argument on the internet, fine.....knock yourself out.

In a domestic setting given the choice of two amps - 1 costing a few quid will separate instruments, resolve complex mixes, project a clean 3d image deliver a robust soundstage the other costing a bag of chips Will screech, distort, clip with a poorly attenuated volume control knob.....but all that can be ignored if we level match to argue they sound the same.

how do you compare them?

Give it a little thought. Saying 2 amps sound the same means they sound the same.

No 'if we level match...'

Either a £95 pound amp will deliver all a £1k amp will or they do not sound the same.

What's unbelievable is reading you guys trying to drag a 'science' into real world situations.

Oh my god... This guy really does not understand anything, pretty frustrating. It's like explaining quantum mechanics to a toddler; no way of making him understand any of it.. (Except the toddler might get it at some point in his life)

 

[Native_bon]

this has always made me wonder. Surely there's a finite point where something becomes hifi nirvana of audio transparency, after all, isn't that the holy grail for amps.

If we take the very rough guide that *in theory* the more you spend, the better, more transparent the amp. (it's a big if I know...) Surely that would mean that once you get past a certain price point that all amps should start to sound the same, ie, transparent, after all, they are meant to be the pinacle of hifi, and in amp terms, that would meant totally transparent no?

So what is happening? If there is so many differences between amps, then does that mean that none of them can be judged as hifi as they are sounding different, when in fact they *should* all sound the same if they are doing their job properly?

It’s not helpful that people often use the term ‘transparent’ without qualifying it (not blaming you for this, cheeseboy).

By ‘transparent’ one might mean one or more of three things:

(i) Physically or absolutely transparent

(ii) Measurably transparent

(iii) Audibly transparent

(i) is an impossibility by the laws of physics.

(ii) means that the available measuring equipment isn’t able to measure any lack of transparency. It doesn’t mean that in principle no measurement would be able to reveal a lack of transparency.

(iii) means that a given listening test (or series of tests) wasn’t able to identify any lack of transparency. It might also mean that any lack of transparency is definitively beyond the capacity of human hearing.

The laws of physics are much more restricted when it comes to price to sound ratio as suppose lets say a super car. The performance of given sound can be recreate as suppose to speed almost having no limit. Some amps are just transparent & may not be pleasing to the ear. Some may manage to give the illusion of sounding transparent yet pleasing to the ear.

If all amps should sound transparent, all things being equal, then like someone mentioned earlier on, price should not determine all. Transparency alone will not determine the illusion recreating the original sound. Amps that are transparency must sound the same, but they do not. Many amps have different ways of fooling the brain to sound transparent & can be achieved in different ways, just like the brain can be fooled by illusions with pictures.

Some can be fooled by illusions of pictures but some will easily see through it, the same applies to sound. This will account for same amp different experience for some.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Nothing changes on your medium of choice.

That said, amps either sound the same or they don't - no 'buts' or ifs.... Level matching, honestly.

Like Hagel showed at the show, comparing their flag ship amp with the entry level amp.

One @ 150wpc the other 75wpc set to what they considerd the best setting - 2k plus v 1k plus respectively it's nor placebo.

And Vlad like the guy who claimed the earth is round you do have to 'prove it'.

So decide

While you decide to pick and choose, according to what fits your view of the world, what aspects of proven science you accept or not - in this case how our ears work. Unbelievable.

Pick and choose what?

How our ears work, please expand?

Look it up. That's how I learn things. It's quite easy these days - don't have to go down to the reference library any more. It's all on the internet. Why do you think everyone makes such a big deal of level matching? Yet you choose to dismiss it - on what basis? Do you just make it up as you go along to suit your weird ideas? Honestly.

What!?

Level matching is a get out of jail card, it's a disclaimer.

In a laboratory level match all you want - in real world applications it's a nonsense. You want to embrace it to win an argument on the internet, fine.....knock yourself out.

In a domestic setting given the choice of two amps - 1 costing a few quid will separate instruments, resolve complex mixes, project a clean 3d image deliver a robust soundstage the other costing a bag of chips Will screech, distort, clip with a poorly attenuated volume control knob.....but all that can be ignored if we level match to argue they sound the same.

how do you compare them?

Give it a little thought. Saying 2 amps sound the same means they sound the same.

No 'if we level match...'

Either a £95 pound amp will deliver all a £1k amp will or they do not sound the same.

What's unbelievable is reading you guys trying to drag a 'science' into real world situations.

Oh my god... This guy really does not understand anything, pretty frustrating. It's like explaining quantum mechanics to a toddler; no way of making him understand any of it.. (Except the toddler might get it at some point in his life)

Again, what!?

You fail to understand the basic principle that when you purchase a piece of equ all the 'science' has already been applied.

All the designing, testing of individual components has been tested. The final product is designed to spec to deliver to that specification.

Do they all sound the same?

No.

So what's the point dragging level matching into an argument to compare when they are not designed to work to the same spec?

I understand fully - you're the dunce. Refer to my post ref Hegal at the show above.

 

[tonky]

and/or different amp same experience.

tonky