JoelSim said:
says the person who runs a hifi equipment shop.... hmmm no vested interest there at all is there?
Thompson, has it ever ocurred to you to consider why so many people consider level matching to be critical while you dismiss it as being irrelevant? Do you think that everyone else is wrong and you are the only person with the clarity of thought to see things as they really are?
Try having a read through this: http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html
Try having a read through this: http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html
Covenanter
Well-known member
This thread seems to have gone completely bananas! To try to return it to sanity:
When comparing kit it is sensible to remove anything extraneous that can cause differences that make comparisons difficult. So for example you would generally want to compare kit in the same room and preferably in the room where it will end up. You would also generally only compare one part of the hifi chain at a time so you wouldn't change the amp and the speakers as you wouldn't know which component was causing any perceived differences.
One of these extraneous issues is "volume". I believe that most of us perceive that louder is better up to some point when it starts to get to be too loud. As you get older this is certainly true as your hearing in unable to pick up high frequencies very well. So for example if you play me a piece of music with high pitched percussion I won't hear it unless it is quite loud. So when I compare amplifiers I have to have them at the same volume level to make the comparison fair.
Chris
When comparing kit it is sensible to remove anything extraneous that can cause differences that make comparisons difficult. So for example you would generally want to compare kit in the same room and preferably in the room where it will end up. You would also generally only compare one part of the hifi chain at a time so you wouldn't change the amp and the speakers as you wouldn't know which component was causing any perceived differences.
One of these extraneous issues is "volume". I believe that most of us perceive that louder is better up to some point when it starts to get to be too loud. As you get older this is certainly true as your hearing in unable to pick up high frequencies very well. So for example if you play me a piece of music with high pitched percussion I won't hear it unless it is quite loud. So when I compare amplifiers I have to have them at the same volume level to make the comparison fair.
Chris
steve_1979
Well-known member
I once tried to explain what a tetraquark is to a cheese plant. I don't think that it understood what was being said either.
pauln said:
The link you refer is pointless!
The music we listen to is dynamic with multiple harmonics and frequencies
presented to a listener at any one time.
We want all these harmonics and frequencies presented in a way that's enjoyable to us at levels we enjoy.
That's the amps job and not all amps are equal.
Single tones at various levels mean nothing in this context.
To be clear I have no issue with the science it just needs to be applied were applicable is all I'm saying.
Oh, and yes. It sure looks like it.
cheeseboy said:JoelSim said:
says the person who runs a hifi equipment shop.... hmmm no vested interest there at all is there?
I don't sell amps, so no, no vested interest.
We could all campaign for What HiFi to dispense with their reviews and awards with amplifiers. They all sound the same, obviously.
I'm just waiting for someone to tell me that all headphones sound the same...then I really will fall off my chair.
Covenanter said:
Thing is Chris.... you don't mind me calling you Chris?
Thing is Chris when comparing amps it's about headroom.
Weather you are sensitive to certain frequencies or not is irrelevant, fairness is not an issue.
Distortion contributes to many people's perception of loudness/volume.
A capable amp can deliver an undistorted dynamic sound that is comfortable to you with your sensitivity, it may not even sound as loud as a less capable amp.
But will deliver a more enjoyable experience for you the listener.
You still have the option to turn it down.
Point is it'll sound better than the less capable amp - why level match with the inferior amp. Only to miss out, eventually ending up here asking questions.....
But seriously, why compromise an amp capable of delivering a clean dynamic sound comfortably to accommodate a less capable amp that can only deliver a less dynamic presentation at 'lower' levels?
JoelSim said:cheeseboy said:JoelSim said:
says the person who runs a hifi equipment shop.... hmmm no vested interest there at all is there?
I don't sell amps, so no, no vested interest.
We could all campaign for What HiFi to dispense with their reviews and awards with amplifiers. They all sound the same, obviously.
I'm just waiting for someone to tell me that all headphones sound the same...then I really will fall off my chair.
No offence Joel, but your original post makes no sense here, and is kind of ironic.
I must admit, that pretty much every amp I have owned has sounded...the same or damned close, so long as I take into account the loudest non clipping point of the weakest.
I tested a Bantam T-amp against an Arcam A80 against a Lyngdorf SDAI2175.
So from £120, through £600 original price through £1500 original price.
I did find that the T-amp and the Lyngdorf sounded identical on some £200 speakers. Weirdly my perception at the time gave the nod to the Arcam on the same speakers. Why, I don't know.
The 15 WPC T-amp of course could not drive them anywhere near as loud comfortably. Although in the context I used it it was more than sufficient at the time.
As for headphones...They are loudspeakers, and nobody in their right mind says they are the same seeing as they are by a long margin the weakest link in the chain. Not to mention that with headphones especially, they are mostly very much tailored with a specific response curve.
A good amp should not be. One reason I would never buy Naim...it isn't Hi-Fi.
An amp should apply gain to a signal...end of story. The further away from that the worse it is(as an amplifier)
So in general but not 100%, I agree, all competent amps sound the same (given that they can drive the speakers in the first place and that we set the volume that is comfortable to the least powerful, whether that be watts powerful, or amps powerful).
So, if you never listen to music above 80 dB, pretty much any well-reviewed, well-specced amp will perform equally to any esoteric Hi-fi bling jewellry (which is what it is really).
If I was going backwards a step and getting back into passive speakers, I would probably pickup that Berhinger A500 to be honest. I imagine it will perform admirably with most speakers to a similar if not identical level to any of the current crop of £1000 plus amps.
Guys you can stop responding to Thompsons posts. As I tried to explain he fails to understand any logic and reason, therefore he does not see that he does not understand it. No point in trying to make him see the logic, as all the efforts in the last months have had no impact.
I do encourage all the EDUCATED people to continue this discussion.
I do encourage all the EDUCATED people to continue this discussion.
JoelSim said:
You'll probably have to wait a long time. I don't recall anyone ever claiming that as I'm sure you well know.
Laurens_B said:
Another groupie....
Make a relevant response or move on.
Crazy people following me around calling my name.... *SCRATCH*
No, you're right.
I think I'll sell my hifi now, pop down to Currys and buy a Matsui mini system for £59 and spend the proceeds on some massive speakers. I may also rip all my music to lowest bitrate MP3 at the same time. Pretty sure it will sound the same, if not better.
Job done. I may even be able to afford an XR3i, a plastic 2l bottle of Chardonnay and a vial of red colouring too!
I think I'll sell my hifi now, pop down to Currys and buy a Matsui mini system for £59 and spend the proceeds on some massive speakers. I may also rip all my music to lowest bitrate MP3 at the same time. Pretty sure it will sound the same, if not better.
Job done. I may even be able to afford an XR3i, a plastic 2l bottle of Chardonnay and a vial of red colouring too!
JoelSim said:
Is this a competition to cram the most strawmen into a reply Joel?
I'm sure you're an intelligent chap. Why resort to logical fallacy?
Nobody in their right mind would say they include all in one systems at ultra low price.
But give me a 5* £300 amp, any £5000 amp that hasn't been "tailored" and at 80dB on a pair of typical £500 speakers, they will more than likely sound identical...it's been proved and documented enough times.
JoelSim said:
apart from the beyer dynamic on your website
JoelSim said:
what an odd thing to say. What hi fi isn't known for it's scientfic testing, if anything people buy it for the opposite - subjective opinion and writing style. Just because I may think that their digital cable reviews are, well, anyways, doesn't mean I can't read what they have to say about speakers.
JoelSim said:
you'll be waiting a heck of a long time, hope the chair is comfy
cheeseboy said:JoelSim said:
apart from the beyer dynamic on your website
JoelSim said:
what an odd thing to say. What hi fi isn't known for it's scientfic testing, if anything people buy it for the opposite - subjective opinion and writing style. Just because I may think that their digital cable reviews are, well, anyways, doesn't mean I can't read what they have to say about speakers.
JoelSim said:
you'll be waiting a heck of a long time, hope the chair is comfy
The beyerdynamic is all one word and is a headphone amp.
I shall also tell Ketan in the WHF testing rooms that the differences he has been hearing for the last few years is rubbish.
I'm also not going to post any more on this thread, and shall go to speak to some Christians about apes.
JoelSim said:
Oh wow. Why is it £1000? Is it 10 times better than the Objective 2 amp made from kit for £100? *scratch_one-s_head*
JoelSim said:
I'm pretty sure that was the question asked in the first post - "What is a well designed amplifier?" Do you consider the Matsui amp to be well designed or is it compromised to meet a price point? I think you know full well what's being discussed here, you're just being awkward.
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