I was wrong about HDMI cables!

[bamindy]

Maybe you should spend £40 on a USB cable and see if your digital camera photos look better too?? :wall:

 

[Sliced Bread]

Maybe you should spend £40 on a USB cable and see if your digital camera photos look better too?? :wall:

I sit on the fence of this whole topic, but streaming data is not the same as copying a file.

 

[Sliced Bread]

OK here’s a question: Let us say that HDMI certified cables are measured to less than 1-bit per billion. I am *assuming* that this is measured under the most flattering conditions possible for the cable (i.e. virtually no interference) as the manufacturer wants the certification. Does a cable that had exactly a 1-bit per billion error rate, have exactly the same error rate when stuffed under the hi-fi rack, curled up and crossing several power cables, a power block, speaker cables and interconnects many many times over in very close proximity as most of us stuff the cables out of site. I’m not sure how interference effects the signal of a HDMI cable, but it is likely that it will increase the error rates *another assumption*. *If* true then better insolation / booster chips etc may make a difference for some people, *if* their system is revealing enough *and* there are issues of interference. This is more a question than a statement.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/certified-hdmi-cables.htm

I don't know how up to date that information is, but it seems to mean that any certified product may not in fact be individually certified, certainly at longer lengths

Thing is, though, individual and random errors in data are just that, they aren't richer colours, deeper bass, an increased top end or whatever else was claimed. You see them in blocking / sparklies when they get too much. At most, one can imagine a single pixel during a single frame may be unpredictably the wrong colour. But none of the stuff that is claimed about these digital cables.

What about sound though?

Asyncronous USB is said to improve sound. I've not tested this at all myself so I'm on the fence, but it sounds reasonable to me that a cleaner digital signal would produce better results. I just don't know about picture.

I do really wonder, how much of this is enviornemnt specific...you should see the underside of my rack...it's a mess :doh: They don't move an inch either because I had to lift the rack up (40kg including kit), then drop it down on the cables to make it fit :clap: If there is cable interference, then it is in abundance under there. Fortunately I have a rubbish HD ready plasma which isn't revealing in the least, so if there is a problem...

 

[BenLaw]

OK here’s a question: Let us say that HDMI certified cables are measured to less than 1-bit per billion. I am *assuming* that this is measured under the most flattering conditions possible for the cable (i.e. virtually no interference) as the manufacturer wants the certification. Does a cable that had exactly a 1-bit per billion error rate, have exactly the same error rate when stuffed under the hi-fi rack, curled up and crossing several power cables, a power block, speaker cables and interconnects many many times over in very close proximity as most of us stuff the cables out of site. I’m not sure how interference effects the signal of a HDMI cable, but it is likely that it will increase the error rates *another assumption*. *If* true then better insolation / booster chips etc may make a difference for some people, *if* their system is revealing enough *and* there are issues of interference. This is more a question than a statement.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/certified-hdmi-cables.htm

I don't know how up to date that information is, but it seems to mean that any certified product may not in fact be individually certified, certainly at longer lengths

Thing is, though, individual and random errors in data are just that, they aren't richer colours, deeper bass, an increased top end or whatever else was claimed. You see them in blocking / sparklies when they get too much. At most, one can imagine a single pixel during a single frame may be unpredictably the wrong colour. But none of the stuff that is claimed about these digital cables.

What about sound though? Asyncronous USB is said to improve sound. I've not tested this at all myself so I'm on the fence, but it sounds reasonable to me that a cleaner digital signal would produce better results. I just don't know about picture. I do really wonder, how much of this is enviornemnt specific...you should see the underside of my rack...it's a mess :doh: They don't move an inch either because I had to lift the rack up (40kg including kit), then drop it down on the cables to make it fit :clap: If there is cable interference, then it is in abundance under there. Fortunately I have a rubbish HD ready plasma which isn't revealing in the least, so if there is a problem...

Digital cables don't distinguish between sound and picture, it's all just data. So what I said applies equally to sound. Errors are by their nature random and unpredictable. If they are too bad, it results in cracks, pops and drop outs. No amount of random error equates to deeper bass or wider soundstage, both of which I think we're claims by the OP. Certainly that is the sort of thing commonly claimed.

Asynchronous USB works by reducing jitter, although there are long standing and thorough studies that show jitter is undetectable by humans below a certain level, which any well constructed modern dac can achieve.

 

[bigboss]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

 

[Sliced Bread]

OK here’s a question: Let us say that HDMI certified cables are measured to less than 1-bit per billion. I am *assuming* that this is measured under the most flattering conditions possible for the cable (i.e. virtually no interference) as the manufacturer wants the certification. Does a cable that had exactly a 1-bit per billion error rate, have exactly the same error rate when stuffed under the hi-fi rack, curled up and crossing several power cables, a power block, speaker cables and interconnects many many times over in very close proximity as most of us stuff the cables out of site. I’m not sure how interference effects the signal of a HDMI cable, but it is likely that it will increase the error rates *another assumption*. *If* true then better insolation / booster chips etc may make a difference for some people, *if* their system is revealing enough *and* there are issues of interference. This is more a question than a statement.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/certified-hdmi-cables.htm

I don't know how up to date that information is, but it seems to mean that any certified product may not in fact be individually certified, certainly at longer lengths

Thing is, though, individual and random errors in data are just that, they aren't richer colours, deeper bass, an increased top end or whatever else was claimed. You see them in blocking / sparklies when they get too much. At most, one can imagine a single pixel during a single frame may be unpredictably the wrong colour. But none of the stuff that is claimed about these digital cables.

What about sound though? Asyncronous USB is said to improve sound. I've not tested this at all myself so I'm on the fence, but it sounds reasonable to me that a cleaner digital signal would produce better results. I just don't know about picture. I do really wonder, how much of this is enviornemnt specific...you should see the underside of my rack...it's a mess :doh: They don't move an inch either because I had to lift the rack up (40kg including kit), then drop it down on the cables to make it fit :clap: If there is cable interference, then it is in abundance under there. Fortunately I have a rubbish HD ready plasma which isn't revealing in the least, so if there is a problem...

Digital cables don't distinguish between sound and picture, it's all just data. So what I said applies equally to sound. Errors are by their nature random and unpredictable. If they are too bad, it results in cracks, pops and drop outs. No amount of random error equates to deeper bass or wider soundstage, both of which I think we're claims by the OP. Certainly that is the sort of thing commonly claimed.

Asynchronous USB works by reducing jitter, although there are long standing and thorough studies that show jitter is undetectable by humans below a certain level, which any well constructed modern dac can achieve.

If that is the case then I should be hearing such symptoms from time to time in the sound as I should be receiving an error every second if the OP is correct, but I've never heard this ever. Only in 'really' bad signals when strreaming from you tube or something have I seen anythinig like this. I believe this is not quite the same thing. I can't really believe that I have never had an error in the stream, so I imagine the manifestation of an error may be something else.

Maybe the player detects the error and leaves the information out, or maybe in the case of audio the dac somehow tries to smooth it out...I just don't know. I've not seen enough facts to make a judgement either way.

What you say maybe true, but I'm keeping an open mind on this front.

I think I'd need to see / hear it all for myself to be sure.

 

[BenLaw]

OK here’s a question: Let us say that HDMI certified cables are measured to less than 1-bit per billion. I am *assuming* that this is measured under the most flattering conditions possible for the cable (i.e. virtually no interference) as the manufacturer wants the certification. Does a cable that had exactly a 1-bit per billion error rate, have exactly the same error rate when stuffed under the hi-fi rack, curled up and crossing several power cables, a power block, speaker cables and interconnects many many times over in very close proximity as most of us stuff the cables out of site. I’m not sure how interference effects the signal of a HDMI cable, but it is likely that it will increase the error rates *another assumption*. *If* true then better insolation / booster chips etc may make a difference for some people, *if* their system is revealing enough *and* there are issues of interference. This is more a question than a statement.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/certified-hdmi-cables.htm

I don't know how up to date that information is, but it seems to mean that any certified product may not in fact be individually certified, certainly at longer lengths

Thing is, though, individual and random errors in data are just that, they aren't richer colours, deeper bass, an increased top end or whatever else was claimed. You see them in blocking / sparklies when they get too much. At most, one can imagine a single pixel during a single frame may be unpredictably the wrong colour. But none of the stuff that is claimed about these digital cables.

What about sound though? Asyncronous USB is said to improve sound. I've not tested this at all myself so I'm on the fence, but it sounds reasonable to me that a cleaner digital signal would produce better results. I just don't know about picture. I do really wonder, how much of this is enviornemnt specific...you should see the underside of my rack...it's a mess :doh: They don't move an inch either because I had to lift the rack up (40kg including kit), then drop it down on the cables to make it fit :clap: If there is cable interference, then it is in abundance under there. Fortunately I have a rubbish HD ready plasma which isn't revealing in the least, so if there is a problem...

Digital cables don't distinguish between sound and picture, it's all just data. So what I said applies equally to sound. Errors are by their nature random and unpredictable. If they are too bad, it results in cracks, pops and drop outs. No amount of random error equates to deeper bass or wider soundstage, both of which I think we're claims by the OP. Certainly that is the sort of thing commonly claimed.

Asynchronous USB works by reducing jitter, although there are long standing and thorough studies that show jitter is undetectable by humans below a certain level, which any well constructed modern dac can achieve.

If that is the case then I should be hearing such symptoms from time to time in the sound as I should be receiving an error every second if the OP is correct, but I've never heard this ever. Only in 'really' bad signals when strreaming from you tube or something have I seen anythinig like this. I believe this is not quite the same thing. I can't really believe that I have never had an error in the stream, so I imagine the manifestation of an error may be something else. Maybe the player detects the error and leaves the information out, or maybe in the case of audio the dac somehow tries to smooth it out...I just don't know. I've not seen enough facts to make a judgement either way. What you say maybe true, but I'm keeping an open mind on this front. I think I'd need to see / hear it all for myself to be sure.

Exactly, one error in a billion or whatever does not manifest itself in an audible way. Only when there are lots of errors, eg if your cable is broken or where you get aerial drop out will errors manifest themselves in an audible or visible way. Whether it's so few errors you can't tell or so many that you can, errors in data do not - cannot - manifest themselves in consistent ways such as deeper blacks or lower bass.

 

[BenLaw]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

 

[bigboss]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

 

[bigboss]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal.

 

[BenLaw]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal.

 

[duaplex]

I had been testing out a more expensive HDMI cable over the past few months, and I'd recently put my normal one back in (Chord Active Silver Plus). I had meant to try a few familiar Blurays but didn't get round to it last week. Now too much time has passed, so I think I'll need to loan it again...

I was recently talking to Audioquest and they tell me they won't willing.y use any 'active' components in their HDMI cables as their testing found that it actually degraded quality. I haven't been into the details of this yet, but I'm just passing that on for those who are interested. If I recall correctly, Audioquest are working on longer cable runs that won't need an active component in order for it to work properly.

Whats your opinion on this David, as a man that works in this sector.

 

[relocated]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal.

:clap:

 

[duaplex]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal.

It's true and like I said my wife who was unaware of the test and the fact i swapped cables spotted it. So does that mean the plecebo is extended to her telepathicaly

 

[BenLaw]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal.

It's true and like I said my wife who was unaware of the test and the fact i swapped cables spotted it. So does that mean the plecebo is extended to her telepathicaly

You never did answer my questions about the detail of what 'testing skyfall' meant.

 

[fr0g]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal.

It's true and like I said my wife who was unaware of the test and the fact i swapped cables spotted it. So does that mean the plecebo is extended to her telepathicaly

No, but it can mean one or more of many things.

1. She knew you had spent money on an "upgraded" cable. In that case her testament is invalid.

2. She saw you fiddling with the TV or something similar and in those cases her testament is invalid.

3. You inadvertently changed something else. Maybe a mode on TV / BR or some furniture, curtains, etc, thus rendering the point moot.

4. You are lying,

There could be other reasons which I haven't thought of, but HDMI cables only differ in that they function, or don't, or are on the way not to, resulting in drop-outs in audio, obvious artifacts in the picture etc. I have chucked a couple out myself, and always buy from a seller on ebay now. They are premium grade and cost around £10-£20 depending on length.

 

[Sliced Bread]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal.

It's true and like I said my wife who was unaware of the test and the fact i swapped cables spotted it. So does that mean the plecebo is extended to her telepathicaly

No, but it can mean one or more of many things.

1. She knew you had spent money on an "upgraded" cable. In that case her testament is invalid.

2. She saw you fiddling with the TV or something similar and in those cases her testament is invalid.

3. You inadvertently changed something else. Maybe a mode on TV / BR or some furniture, curtains, etc, thus rendering the point moot.

4. You are lying,

There could be other reasons which I haven't thought of, but HDMI cables only differ in that they function, or don't, or are on the way not to, resulting in drop-outs in audio, obvious artifacts in the picture etc. I have chucked a couple out myself, and always buy from a seller on ebay now. They are premium grade and cost around £10-£20 depending on length.

Or maybe he is correct. You were not at the testing.
There do not seem to be any firm conclusions on this subject..alot of educated guesses, but no firm conclusions.

 

[fr0g]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal.

It's true and like I said my wife who was unaware of the test and the fact i swapped cables spotted it. So does that mean the plecebo is extended to her telepathicaly

No, but it can mean one or more of many things.

1. She knew you had spent money on an "upgraded" cable. In that case her testament is invalid.

2. She saw you fiddling with the TV or something similar and in those cases her testament is invalid.

3. You inadvertently changed something else. Maybe a mode on TV / BR or some furniture, curtains, etc, thus rendering the point moot.

4. You are lying,

There could be other reasons which I haven't thought of, but HDMI cables only differ in that they function, or don't, or are on the way not to, resulting in drop-outs in audio, obvious artifacts in the picture etc. I have chucked a couple out myself, and always buy from a seller on ebay now. They are premium grade and cost around £10-£20 depending on length.

Or maybe he is correct. You were not at the testing. There do not seem to be any firm conclusions on this subject..alot of educated guesses, but no firm conclusions.

"The testing". You mean the heresay of one individual and his missus?

As for firm conclusions. Can you give me one reason as to why I am wrong? Yes, you can get HDMI cables better than others. But that will only be down to reliablity and will certainly not affect "blacks" or "bass" leaving an otherwise clean sound or picture. There is no physical possibility in the laws of physics that can lead to this conclusion.

 

[Alec]

There are very firm conclusions, such as what Ben said.

 

[relocated]

Or maybe he is correct. You were not at the testing.
There do not seem to be any firm conclusions on this subject..alot of educated guesses, but no firm conclusions. :help:

Sliced Bread, there are very many FIRM CONCLUSIONS on HDMI cables and they ALL say that there is no difference in their abilities to pass 1s and 0s along their length. The only confusion is by people on here and other fora who wish to believe that they can see and hear things that they CAN NOT. They have been suckered into spending needless money or are the band of people who think they have golden ears or 50/50 vision.

Digital cables pass 1s and 0s down the line they don;t affect bass, colours, shade or any other delusional manifestation. Do cable companies actually say their cables are scientifically tested to prove they can change anything? No, but if you have seen any such claims let me know and then I will report their misdemeanors to the ASA.

Please people, get a life, reject the bull and accept that properly functioning digital cables are the same.

 

[duaplex]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal.

It's true and like I said my wife who was unaware of the test and the fact i swapped cables spotted it. So does that mean the plecebo is extended to her telepathicaly

No, but it can mean one or more of many things.

1. She knew you had spent money on an "upgraded" cable. In that case her testament is invalid.

2. She saw you fiddling with the TV or something similar and in those cases her testament is invalid.

3. You inadvertently changed something else. Maybe a mode on TV / BR or some furniture, curtains, etc, thus rendering the point moot.

4. You are lying,

There could be other reasons which I haven't thought of, but HDMI cables only differ in that they function, or don't, or are on the way not to, resulting in drop-outs in audio, obvious artifacts in the picture etc. I have chucked a couple out myself, and always buy from a seller on ebay now. They are premium grade and cost around £10-£20 depending on length.

1. no

2. no

3. That would be funny and silly, but no

4. What have I got to gain out that?

People just need to accept the fact that I like others that have used this cable are seeing and hearing a difference. I think i know which ebay seller you refer to, there is one that I buy from too that I liked, I believe it has platinum written on the end. If so these are the cables I am testing against.

Do you guys seriously think I would simply post this thread because I enjoy ridicule? The truth is simple, I conducted a test and heard a difference, if you chose to accept that then fine, if you chose to refute it then thats also fine. However do not dismiss it before you have tested it yourself, that would be my advice.

 

[duaplex]

Or maybe he is correct. You were not at the testing.
There do not seem to be any firm conclusions on this subject..alot of educated guesses, but no firm conclusions. :help:

Sliced Bread, there are very many FIRM CONCLUSIONS on HDMI cables and they ALL say that there is no difference in their abilities to pass 1s and 0s along their length. The only confusion is by people on here and other fora who wish to believe that they can see and hear things that they CAN NOT. They have been suckered into spending needless money or are the band of people who think they have golden ears or 50/50 vision.

Digital cables pass 1s and 0s down the line they don;t affect bass, colours, shade or any other delusional manifestation. Do cable companies actually say their cables are scientifically tested to prove they can change anything? No, but if you have seen any such claims let me know and then I will report their misdemeanors to the ASA.

Please people, get a life, reject the bull and accept that properly functioning digital cables are the same.

I would not class spending £40 as needless, I am not advocating that people go and spend £300, this was a simple test conducted using an active cable to see if it would indeed make a difference and on my setup it certainly has. I repeat this, people seem to think the difference is huge where it suddenly turns a 6k setup in a 20k performing setup, it does not. But, the difference is there and the sound was indeed more vibrant.

My previous cable was £14 this one is £40. Even if this cable made no difference, I would still be happy with it, purely from a build quality perspective and the fact it fits and stays in its HDMI port.

 

[BenLaw]

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

??

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be!

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal.

It's true and like I said my wife who was unaware of the test and the fact i swapped cables spotted it. So does that mean the plecebo is extended to her telepathicaly

No, but it can mean one or more of many things.

1. She knew you had spent money on an "upgraded" cable. In that case her testament is invalid.

2. She saw you fiddling with the TV or something similar and in those cases her testament is invalid.

3. You inadvertently changed something else. Maybe a mode on TV / BR or some furniture, curtains, etc, thus rendering the point moot.

4. You are lying,

There could be other reasons which I haven't thought of, but HDMI cables only differ in that they function, or don't, or are on the way not to, resulting in drop-outs in audio, obvious artifacts in the picture etc. I have chucked a couple out myself, and always buy from a seller on ebay now. They are premium grade and cost around £10-£20 depending on length.

1. no

2. no

3. That would be funny and silly, but no

4. What have I got to gain out that?

So given those answers, can you tell us at the third time of asking what you actually did when you say you were 'testing' the skyfall disc when your wife came in?

 

[duaplex]

Sorry Ben,

I was simply watching the intro scene with Bond on the train having a fist fight, this is when she walked in and made note of the sound and picture. She had no idea I swapped over the cable, she simply assumed I had started watching it again.

So I carried on with the testing and this is when I noticed a difference in sound, especially with the rain when M was standing by the window, there seemed to be a far more atmospheric feel to scene and it was brighter. Also to note, my center speaker was no longer sounding as if it was drowned by the two towers next to it. The sound is far more balanced with this cable.

No other setting have changed, no adjustments to the volume, no adjustments to the DB setting for speakers and no other calibration by the LX83. no new furniture, no new Bluray player, heck not even a cushion was out of place in the house

 

[Sliced Bread]

Or maybe he is correct. You were not at the testing.
There do not seem to be any firm conclusions on this subject..alot of educated guesses, but no firm conclusions. :help:

Sliced Bread, there are very many FIRM CONCLUSIONS on HDMI cables and they ALL say that there is no difference in their abilities to pass 1s and 0s along their length. The only confusion is by people on here and other fora who wish to believe that they can see and hear things that they CAN NOT. They have been suckered into spending needless money or are the band of people who think they have golden ears or 50/50 vision.

Digital cables pass 1s and 0s down the line they don;t affect bass, colours, shade or any other delusional manifestation. Do cable companies actually say their cables are scientifically tested to prove they can change anything? No, but if you have seen any such claims let me know and then I will report their misdemeanors to the ASA.

Please people, get a life, reject the bull and accept that properly functioning digital cables are the same.

I'm afraid that insulting phrases and little rants do not change my opinion.
My opinion before this debate, was that I sit on the fence in this debate due to my earlier *questions*. And here I am still on that fence.
I would like to see bench testing in various conditions rather than just perfect conditions and guess work.
From there I'll make my decision (which ever way that goes).