How to get speaker positioning right

[newlash09]

I often found suggestions on here, to play with speaker positioning. And I also read in several speaker reviews, where the reviewer mentions 'played with the positioning till the image snapped into place'.

I've wrestled enough with my speakers to give the gym a skip. But I don't think iam anywhere near getting it right. So can someone please give a detailed reply on how they started with the placement of their speakers, and how they adjusted them step by step till they reached their optimum position. Any and all advise will be most welcome. Thanks

 

[plastic penguin]

What do you think is wrong with the sound? Generally speaking SQ falls down with either: Boomy bass, or too thin; lack of imaging; sound dispersion...

The positioning of a speaker will depend on the make and size of room. For example, when my PMCs are toed in I notice a fuller sound but the stereo image is startling. If I have the speakers 'straight on' it sounds a little more trebly and lose some of imaging.

It really is a case of keep experimenting until you find the sweet spot. However, that sweet spot won't be found if the speaker is too close or too far from the wall. Again, this'll be determined by room size, acoustics and system.

Can a family member or a helpful friend turn each speaker in tiny increments while playing music, until it sounds right?

Hi-fi set up isn't an exact science but an extra pair of hands could get you closer to that utopian sound.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Try this: http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

 

[Andrewjvt]

There is no rule for setting up apart from common sense.

Certain speakers react differently to different alignment.
I'd read the manufacturers recommended set up then play with it from there on as it interacts with your room boundary.

Also the reviewers want you to think they possess special abilities in setting up hifi when most of them are just good writer's. I heard one reviewer comment on how the soundstage improved when the exhibitioners changed power supply.
Don't believe them as they talk ****.

 

[Electro]

There is no rule for setting up apart from common sense.

Certain speakers react differently to different alignment. I'd read the manufacturers recommended set up then play with it from there on as it interacts with your room boundary.

Also the reviewers want you to think they possess special abilities in setting up hifi when most of them are just good writer's. I heard one reviewer comment on how the soundstage improved when the exhibitioners changed power supply. Don't believe them as they talk ****.

You forgot to add " In your opinion " *stop* *biggrin*

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO. There are so many variables.

One of the biggest constraints is enough space. Most speakers work best when they have room to breathe ie. Away from walls and corners...which is often something that is impractical.

Seating position can be another problem, especially if up against a back wall.

Suspended wooden floors are another pain.

Generally, most of us have to live with a compromise....or use Acoustic Treatmment/Advanced EQ to mitigate the problem. The former turns your room into a recording Studio; the latter requires a certain technical competence/confidence.

All we can do is experiment within the confines of our living space, with the likes of

- Toe in

- Small movements of speakers

- Decor of the room (Rugs, Curtains etc)

- The stability of the speakers, what they sit on etc etc.

 

[Andrewjvt]

There is no rule for setting up apart from common sense.

Certain speakers react differently to different alignment. I'd read the manufacturers recommended set up then play with it from there on as it interacts with your room boundary.

Also the reviewers want you to think they possess special abilities in setting up hifi when most of them are just good writer's. I heard one reviewer comment on how the soundstage improved when the exhibitioners changed power supply. Don't believe them as they talk ****.

You forgot to add       " In your opinion "   *stop*  *biggrin*

That part is proven scientific fact

Also too many snake oil salesmen on here talking opinion as fact lately

 

[nopiano]

That Cardas techy stuff is a great guide to the theorey. But as Cno says, nobody actually owns a room like those examples, and if they do there's already a bookcase, sofa, bay window, door opening, or other irregularity somewhre in the mix!

Floorstanders can usually be slid fairly easily without spikes fitted, as can stands while taking care of toppling. You can make pretty large change at first affecting the tonal balance, like PP says, then fine tune later. Once that's about right, the toe-in tweaks affect the imaging.

Some quite extreme positions can work, e.g. with speakers near the corners, if space allows, but more often (again as already suggested) room to breathe is a good guide.

 

[plastic penguin]

Another important factor: Many people have such high expectations of various hi-fi components that sometimes you can lose touch of what is capable in a real world set-up.

 

[paulkebab]

in placement without going crazy. The focal point can be in front of you, at you, or behind you. Used to be that you would focus the speakers to an area in front of you, depending on the size of the room and distance between the speakers but 2 or 3 feet used to be the norm. Then there's the 'right at you' focal point which is pretty obvious, then the behind you option. This is my preference, I've got the inner face of each speaker pointing over the relevant shoulder. As pretty much all of us have found, there are trade-offs in all. I find the soundstage less defined but very wide, and a slight loss of certain frequency detail but the overall sound very pleasing indeed, it's horses for courses. Just try to get things pretty much symmetrical and you should find your sweet spot in no time.

 

[insider9]

Could write a chapter of a book about this. In fact if you consider different speaker designs a whole book.

Bar lack of acoustic treatment the biggest thing most people get wrong and try to mitigate with component changes and cables.

I'll try to cover as much as I can of my observations and experiences as soon as I'm in front of a PC as typing on mobile.

 

[newlash09]

The only time I was mesmerised by imaging was a chance encounter with my concept 40 speakers. I was trying different things, and ended up sitting 4 ft from each speaker on a dining chair, with my head and ears well above tweeter level. And then when I started playing, there was a startling impression of the sound coming from all directions, and vocals coming from dead ahead, at approximately the standing height of a person. I was wondering how a image could come from above me, when the speakers were actually below me. That is the best I've ever heard.

Subsequently in my PMC setup or those of my friends that I have heard. The sound comes like a wall from between both speakers. And on some occasions, a little beyond the outer periphery of the speakers. But nothing as dramatic as my chance encounter above.

So I was wondering if my speakers placement as well as my friends was wrong. Are others having that uncanny experience I had with the concept 40's. Thanks

 

[newlash09]

That I now the pmc's firing straight ahead without toe in. I tried toeing in to fire 1m behind my seating position, but found the sound stage to be narrowed. So opened them up again.

They are 8 ft apart, tweeter to tweeter. And 45 cms from the back wall. I usually sit 8 ft from the center of both speakers.

Am I right in thinking that iam wrongly comparing a near field setup, with a normal setup.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

That I now the pmc's firing straight ahead without toe in. I tried toeing in to fire 1m behind my seating position, but found the sound stage to be narrowed. So opened them up again.

They are 8 ft apart, tweeter to tweeter. And 45 cms from the back wall. I usually sit 8 ft from the center of both speakers.

Am I right in thinking that iam wrongly comparing a near field setup, with a normal setup.

In your seated listening position are the tweeters at ear height? Just to clarify, in the listening position are the fronts of the speakers 8 feet away from you making an 8 foot equilateral triangle?

 

[nopiano]

That I now the pmc's firing straight ahead without toe in. I tried toeing in to fire 1m behind my seating position, but found the sound stage to be narrowed. So opened them up again.

They are 8 ft apart, tweeter to tweeter. And 45 cms from the back wall. I usually sit 8 ft from the center of both speakers.

Am I right in thinking that iam wrongly comparing a near field setup, with a normal setup.

In your seated listening position are the tweeters at ear height? Just to clarify, in the listening position are the fronts of the speakers 8 feet away from you making an 8 foot equilateral triangle?

Yes, I’m curious too. Also, 45 centimetres is quite close to the back wall (or front wall in most US literature) for such a large speaker. I’d be trying to get at least 90 centimetres away to avoid boom or image flattening. PMCs are usually best firing straight ahead, unless they are close to the side walls. They tend to have slightly exaggerated highs, which gives an appealing openness when not beamed at the listener

Re the unusual imaging from the Concept 40, the phase response is probably rather weird way above axis, so anything is possible. That is a bit like how these 3D sound bars try to work, spraying sounds around the room.

Lastly, something I almost mentioned in my earlier reply - rather than moving speakers, which can be tricky with large ones, is to move yourself! Sit on the floor, slide towards your rear wall (behind you) etc., to see how the sound changes. But you usually need to end up about ear height to tweeters, or only a tad above or below.

 

[newlash09]

My actual distance from each speaker is exactly 8 feet. So actually from the center of the speaker axis it is likely to be 7 ft. In my seated position my ears are slightly below the tweeter's height. I usually find vocals coming below the mid driver height. Almost like the singer was sitting on the floor when singing. I also assume it could be a issue with the drivers, which were not exactly in pristine condition, when I bought the speakers used. I have new drivers coming in June. So can try changing them and see if things improve.

Regarding the room around the speakers, there are is no side wall for the right speaker. The left speaker has a half high bar to the left about 2 Mrs away. I sit in a room of almost 12x22 ft. So I have almost 14 ft of room behind my back.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

As stated above every room/speaker is different, but the best place to start is with the manfactures suggested layout/guidlines, knowing this is a suggested layout and probably won't stay like this, in turn this will allow you to know what the speakers min closset distances are go from there. Each movement i listen for an evening getting used to everything weather that be watching TV or listening to music. Making a mental notes of things that are wrong and right/preferance. thats really all the advice i can give.

With PMC i found the tranmission line was a real problem in my room placing the sound well outside the room, Not even the dealer could get fathom it, so had to make the descsion to go with somthing more traditional (hence the importance of home demos).

Cambridge audio gives a very good description/advice on there website on how to set up speakers in the "real world" as do strangly enough richer sounds. And really boils down to hit and miss, when you get you'll know. Remeber though each time you move them take the time to level them off which im sure you do.

Aim for balance first then add the preferance

 

[CnoEvil]

I came across this, which you might find interesting. Alan Shaw describes speakers as an Air Pump and Low Frequencies like a gas, that touches every surface;

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/forum/the-science-of-audio/getting-the-best-sound-in-your-room-using-damping-materials/1160-real-speakers-in-real-rooms-what-to-expect-especially-in-the-lower-frequencies

 

[BigH]

As stated above every room/speaker is different, but the best place to start is with the manfactures suggested layout/guidlines, knowing this is a suggested layout and probably won't stay like this, in turn this will allow you to know what the speakers min closset distances are go from there. Each movement i listen for an evening getting used to everything weather that be watching TV or listening to music. Making a mental notes of things that are wrong and right/preferance. thats really all the advice i can give.

With PMC i found the tranmission line was a real problem in my room placing the sound well outside the room, Not even the dealer could get fathom it, so had to make the descsion to go with somthing more traditional (hence the importance of home demos).

Cambridge audio gives a very good description/advice on there website on how to set up speakers in the "real world" as do strangly enough richer sounds. And really boils down to hit and miss, when you get you'll know. Remeber though each time you move them take the time to level them off which im sure you do.

Aim for balance first then add the preferance

Even that will not be possible in many houses. There is often doors and windows in the way.

 

[BigH]

Duplicate deleted, here we go again.

 

[newlash09]

That was an interesting read cnoevil

Will remove the spikes as suggested and then get my wife to move them around. I am sure my wife will get it right for my ears with very little effort