How many watts per channel do you NEED?

[davedotco]

It is important to understand that all subjective assessments are personal, though they can be very useful.

Perceived loudness is critical, play an enthusiast a piece of music, then play it again but increase the volume by 0.5dB. This is too small to be percieved as an increase in loudness, but the listener will report an improvement, clarity, focus, soundstage etc. Ie it sounds better!

Understanding this is critical, volume matters! This is why amplifier manufacturers go to extraordinary lengths to make there amplifiers play louder than the competition. If they can somehow manipulate you into playing their amplifier just that fraction of a dB louder then this difference will swamp any possible differences in the amplifier design.

From crazy volume controls that get loud very quickly (and clip at around 10 o'clock) to over sensitive inputs, the amplifiers are designed to encourage you to play louder, in dems at any rate. Other strategies work too, manipulating gain to give that 'edge of seat' excitement, adding noise or distortion to add 'body' and 'warmth', all devices used by manufactures to make you prefer their product over another.

From a subjective point of view, none of this really matters, you like what you like and that is fair enough though personally I find that a bit of understanding of why you like things is worth having and helps keep me grounded.

Note. The adding of noise and distortion is widely used in music production too, the kind of harsh, clipped sound that is commonplace on many modern recordings and blatently annoying on even half decent systems gives a bit of excitement and 'edge' on the sort of crap equipment that most people listen to.

 

[Paulq]

@davedotco Agreed but I think you have just nailed the difference in perspectives that's been banging around in this and other threads. That difference is inherent subjectivity. In listening to a 30 vs a 100w amp I don't hear the difference at all because I simply don't play at levels where it would become so apparent. Hence my assertion that, quantitatively, there may well be a difference in quality, control, clarity or whatever.

Qualitatively however 'most' people simply hear what they hear - if they like it than it's 'good' and if not then it's 'bad'. HiFi is a science and an art - you simply subscribe to one or the other. That's why I accept the technical view but it matters not to me because it has no impact upon how I perceive or like my system.

Vlad says Naim is outdated, uses poor componentry, is low power etc. He may be right but I like what they do and they may meet my needs. I'll be interested to see what/if he recommends as an alternative.

 

[davedotco]

No problems with any of that, I am not suggesting that there is any right or wrong here unless you subscribe to the view that hi-fi is about reproducing the recording exactly as recorded.

My point in all these posts is about understanding, if you like a certain amplifier, that's fine but I find it a great help if I have some idea why I like it. That's important to me, though not others it seems.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

everyone has there own understanding when it comes to hi fi and mainly just want a good sound for what they can afford and not everyone looks at things in a scientific way well i do not anyway i just injoy it for what it is music been played as good as i can make it sound for my hard earn money so most people look at how it sounds and what watts it has and some younger people like loud so maybe more intrested in how loud it goes = watts =bass but as you get older if still intrested in hi fi it comes down to more about quality first and not everyone has a recording studio in there house or can afford £10.000 on a amp most people i would have thought have budget and mid range hifi anyway its not about how big my car is to yours we all have on here one thing in common we all love music !

 

[tonky]

Hi there - I have a Naim Unitilite - I bought into the convenience of an all in one package of cd player - dac - streaming from laptop - internet radio. I am pleased I did.

Have a listen (home demo) of the Naim unitiqute. Let YOUR ears decide what you like. There are so many excellent reviews of this equipment from Naim. Don't be dissuaded by technobabble from anyone else - you listen - you decide. It's your choice.

I was very much a Naim sceptic til I had the Unitilite on home demo (shop demo model - good discount).

I prefer the sound quality of iteven compared to my 120 watt per channel cambridge amp. And the overall package is good value for money

cheers tonky

 

[Deleted member 116933]

@davedotco Agreed but I think you have just nailed the difference in perspectives that's been banging around in this and other threads. That difference is inherent subjectivity. In listening to a 30 vs a 100w amp I don't hear the difference at all because I simply don't play at levels where it would become so apparent. Hence my assertion that, quantitatively, there may well be a difference in quality, control, clarity or whatever.

Qualitatively however 'most' people simply hear what they hear - if they like it than it's 'good' and if not then it's 'bad'. HiFi is a science and an art - you simply subscribe to one or the other. That's why I accept the technical view but it matters not to me because it has no impact upon how I perceive or like my system.

Vlad says Naim is outdated, uses poor componentry, is low power etc. He may be right but I like what they do and they may meet my needs. I'll be interested to see what/if he recommends as an alternative.

Maybe they do it this way becasue it, well just works! Why change a formula. Cyrus do the same dose it make them bad no it makes them stand out. Have a listen to them! some people get far to cought up in numbers and science and forget to just listen. The Uniti series is hardly out dated in fact it set the way and companies (arcam, cyrus) are still trying to catch up. I just dont think naim bakes the details and keeps pretty truthfull. I doubt any of the amps mentioned will get anywhere near the quoted power rating for extended periods...... Naim power amps are stabel into very low loads the nap 200 and 250 are stabel into 2ohm loads for extended periods they have to be there speakers arn't exatctly easy to drive. Naim even state themsevles that dont set out to make the most this and that amp/products but what do try to do is make the music exciting and to me they do. There watts are based off "real world" measurements not dynamic output. And there power supplies give you the clues that very capable indeed. I wouldn't call them low power at all....

I'm sure Vlad will post a strange picture or an emojy shortly but its your money spend it how you wish but you will be spending wisely. Just make sure to auditon all your options and dont be swayed by others! It's all opinion even mine on Naim but to say there outdated is laughable. Listen to the dealer for alternatives not Vlad

 

[Vladimir]

I never said Naim uses low quality componentery, their electronic design is from the 50s and poor by todays standards (or even 70s standards). The components are actually above the norm in quality, they have to be. When you have a not so clever circuit design, you relly a lot of on low margin tolerances of the components for everything to work. When this fails by certain small margin you get the famous Naim humm, or complete failure of the equipment sometimes. This concept (the use of tantalum capacitors mainly) also means you have to take the amp for servicing more frequently just to keep it working within specs, unlike most other amps that keep working over two decades without any issues.

Another disclaimer. I'm soapboxing here, not giving out any actual buying advices. If I was to give an advice for what to buy, I just say buy the thing which gives you the biggest pride of ownership and don't bother much about anything else. If you always wanted 30W Class A amp, go for it. Always wanted a Krell/Naim/LS35a/Sondek/ARC/SF/JBL/Accuphase, do it. Have fun.

 

[Vladimir]

@davedotco Agreed but I think you have just nailed the difference in perspectives that's been banging around in this and other threads. That difference is inherent subjectivity. In listening to a 30 vs a 100w amp I don't hear the difference at all because I simply don't play at levels where it would become so apparent. Hence my assertion that, quantitatively, there may well be a difference in quality, control, clarity or whatever.

Qualitatively however 'most' people simply hear what they hear - if they like it than it's 'good' and if not then it's 'bad'. HiFi is a science and an art - you simply subscribe to one or the other. That's why I accept the technical view but it matters not to me because it has no impact upon how I perceive or like my system.

Vlad says Naim is outdated, uses poor componentry, is low power etc. He may be right but I like what they do and they may meet my needs. I'll be interested to see what/if he recommends as an alternative.

Maybe they do it this way becasue it, well just works! Why change a formula. Cyrus do the same dose it make them bad no it makes them stand out. Have a listen to them! some people get far to cought up in numbers and science and forget to just listen. The Uniti series is hardly out dated in fact it set the way and companies (arcam, cyrus) are still trying to catch up. I just dont think naim bakes the details and keeps pretty truthfull. I doubt any of the amps mentioned will get anywhere near the quoted power rating for extended periods...... Naim power amps are stabel into very low loads the nap 200 and 250 are stabel into 2ohm loads for extended periods they have to be there speakers arn't exatctly easy to drive. Naim even state themsevles that dont set out to make the most this and that amp/products but what do try to do is make the music exciting and to me they do. There watts are based off "real world" measurements not dynamic output. And there power supplies give you the clues that very capable indeed. I wouldn't call them low power at all....

I'm sure Vlad will post a strange picture or an emojy shortly but its your money spend it how you wish but you will be spending wisely. Just make sure to auditon all your options and dont be swayed by others! It's all opinion even mine on Naim but to say there outdated is laughable. Listen to the dealer for alternatives not Vlad

I'd take Dave's word over mine anytime. I'm just a regular Joe consumer so take my posts with a pinch of salt.

 

[iQ Speakers]

OK ive not read the thread busy building prototype Hypex amps. Have to say in my 3x4M listening room I dont need the 500W of Hypex NC500 power over the 70W Abrahamsen yes it goes louder but its to loud to listen too. 70W is perfectly adequate given the the Abrahamsen does not distort at full volume. Sure if I had a much larger room I might like a little more power.

 

[tonky]

Are you not well ? - been to the doctor? I'm a bit concerned after reading your last two posts.

I agree DDC has written a lot of good informed stuff on this thread

Get well soon anyway Vlad

cheers tonky

 

[davedotco]

OK ive not read the thread busy building prototype Hypex amps. Have to say in my 3x4M listening room I dont need the 500W of Hypex NC500 power over the 70W Abrahamsen yes it goes louder but its to loud to listen too. 70W is perfectly adequate given the the Abrahamsen does not distort at full volume. Sure if I had a much larger room I might like a little more power.

But in no way is an Abrahamsen a regular 70 watt amplifier. I have written a lot on the importance of power supplies, both the ability to deliver a lot of VA and the capability of the power supply capacitors.

The V20 and it's derivative are very well endowed in both respects, far more power available to cope with real world situations than any other 70watt amplifier.

Were I in the market for a mid priced amplifier it would be the first model I would try.

 

[Vladimir]

Are you not well ? - been to the doctor? I'm a bit concerned after reading your last two posts.

I agree DDC has written a lot of good informed stuff on this thread

Get well soon anyway Vlad

cheers tonky

The yellow/orange cubes spread across the PCB are Kemet tantalum capacitors. Also the amplification design in Naim is from a 1954 (IIRC) RCA handbook for DIY kits. What is it in my post that you found so disturbing?

 

[iQ Speakers]

Indeed David, the only thing I would add , even if your after a £2K amp as well. If you want to play with one David, purely to gain your views PM me.

 

[davedotco]

Indeed David, the only thing I would add , even if your after a £2K amp as well. If you want to play with one David, purely to gain your views PM me.

Interestingly I am about to receive an interesting pair of passive speakers that have been given to me.

Given the design I thought they may be of some interest. I have not heard this model for something like 15 years, though I consider it a modern design.

The Chinese OEM manufacturer is offering it's own version of this speaker for about US$500, this equates to about $1000-1200 shipped and duty paid to the UK. If my memory of this speaker is at all accurate, that is a pretty good deal.

 

[chebby]

Look a bit like the new Quad S1 and S2 standmounts with their ribbon tweeters and kevlar mid/bass drivers...

 

[iQ Speakers]

Nice finish, oh and the ribbon tweeters, they really are very good. enjoy the offers there.

 

[paulkebab]

my amp I agree with davedotco, power supplies are the basis for everything that follows on. The problems I had were not IMO watts per channel output of my Yamaha AS500 but the difficult load applied to it, going into 'protection mode' a tad too soon. Its replacement, the Vincent SV237, has almost double the watts into 8R but that's not the full story. Even at low output the speakers are firmly held by the abilities of the Vincent and the resultant sound is on a different planet, deep smooth bass exists even at 'background music' levels. The amp weighs in at just over 20 kilos and having had a peek inside without removing any covers the bulk of this seems to be the power supply. In making my choice forum members gave me a bit of an education into power supplies, how the chain is affected and why they're so important for good results ( but now and then I love it loud )