How many watts per channel do you NEED?

[NS496]

What's most importent is that it has to sound good, who want's to have a 200watt amp if it sounds like garbage trying to play loud

But it won't, assuming it is a competent design, thats the point.

Knowing your views on what constitutes 'true' hi-fi, can you clarify 'competent' in this instance? Do you mean something that's going to cost up in the tens of thousands when new?

It's just that you've said so many times that no-one really knows what true hi-fi sounds like unless they've heard these really expensive systems, so I am wondering if that's the kind (and price) of amp you are talking about now when you say 'competent'.

(Your merely 'competent' could be someone else's 'unobtainable dream'!)

Difficult question, but I'll see what I can do.

Firstly, I'm not talking hi-end, I think we have largely been discussing budget and mid priced systems here. So I am talking about the kind of amplifier that is not expensive but is powerful enough to remove the limitations budget amplifiers have with regard to peak power delivery.

I am also of the persuasion that there is very little difference between decent power amplifiers, if differences can be heard they will usually be power related. The PMC amplifiers, now sadly discontinued, delivered 200 watts for around £1100 for a pair of monoblocks, digital, of course and entirely bling free, they could easily embarass more expensive models.

Power amplifiers of this sort of rating may seem excessive, particularly when looking at the power calculators that have been posted in the last few days.

However I do not feel that these 'calculators' are much use, they appear to rely on Ohms law, which strictly speaking does not apply to a/c, and take no account of real impedance variations let alone awkward phase angles. They are also being used to calculate continuous powers, which is pointless in my view. The power requirements we are talking about is peak power and these can be very high indeed, particularly on good recordings.

Remember, a recording with good dynamic range may have peaks 20dB above the contiuous power, and of course this means a peak power 100 times higher than the continuous power, amplifiers rarely run out of continuous power but clipped peaks are all to common.

A nice outline of the issues involved. Thanks.

 

[NS496]

What's most importent is that it has to sound good, who want's to have a 200watt amp if it sounds like garbage trying to play loud

But it won't, assuming it is a competent design, thats the point.

Knowing your views on what constitutes 'true' hi-fi, can you clarify 'competent' in this instance? Do you mean something that's going to cost up in the tens of thousands when new?

It's just that you've said so many times that no-one really knows what true hi-fi sounds like unless they've heard these really expensive systems, so I am wondering if that's the kind (and price) of amp you are talking about now when you say 'competent'.

(Your merely 'competent' could be someone else's 'unobtainable dream'!)

Difficult question, but I'll see what I can do.

Firstly, I'm not talking hi-end, I think we have largely been discussing budget and mid priced systems here. So I am talking about the kind of amplifier that is not expensive but is powerful enough to remove the limitations budget amplifiers have with regard to peak power delivery.

I am also of the persuasion that there is very little difference between decent power amplifiers, if differences can be heard they will usually be power related. The PMC amplifiers, now sadly discontinued, delivered 200 watts for around £1100 for a pair of monoblocks, digital, of course and entirely bling free, they could easily embarass more expensive models.

Power amplifiers of this sort of rating may seem excessive, particularly when looking at the power calculators that have been posted in the last few days.

However I do not feel that these 'calculators' are much use, they appear to rely on Ohms law, which strictly speaking does not apply to a/c, and take no account of real impedance variations let alone awkward phase angles. They are also being used to calculate continuous powers, which is pointless in my view. The power requirements we are talking about is peak power and these can be very high indeed, particularly on good recordings.

Remember, a recording with good dynamic range may have peaks 20dB above the contiuous power, and of course this means a peak power 100 times higher than the continuous power, amplifiers rarely run out of continuous power but clipped peaks are all to common.

What about 'dynamic power ratings' from manufacturers. Say for instance a manufacturer claims the following: 30 Watts Continuous 0.004% THD, "Dynamic power of 60W at 8 ohm, and 100W at 4 Ohm and 165W at 2 ohm..." How realistic are these ratings? Wouldn't that take care of most of the peaks above 20dB if you are close to the speakers?

 

[gasolin]

What's most importent is that it has to sound good, who want's to have a 200watt amp if it sounds like garbage trying to play loud

But it won't, assuming it is a competent design, thats the point.

Knowing your views on what constitutes 'true' hi-fi, can you clarify 'competent' in this instance? Do you mean something that's going to cost up in the tens of thousands when new?

It's just that you've said so many times that no-one really knows what true hi-fi sounds like unless they've heard these really expensive systems, so I am wondering if that's the kind (and price) of amp you are talking about now when you say 'competent'.

(Your merely 'competent' could be someone else's 'unobtainable dream'!)

Difficult question, but I'll see what I can do.

Firstly, I'm not talking hi-end, I think we have largely been discussing budget and mid priced systems here. So I am talking about the kind of amplifier that is not expensive but is powerful enough to remove the limitations budget amplifiers have with regard to peak power delivery.

I am also of the persuasion that there is very little difference between decent power amplifiers, if differences can be heard they will usually be power related. The PMC amplifiers, now sadly discontinued, delivered 200 watts for around £1100 for a pair of monoblocks, digital, of course and entirely bling free, they could easily embarass more expensive models.

Power amplifiers of this sort of rating may seem excessive, particularly when looking at the power calculators that have been posted in the last few days.

However I do not feel that these 'calculators' are much use, they appear to rely on Ohms law, which strictly speaking does not apply to a/c, and take no account of real impedance variations let alone awkward phase angles. They are also being used to calculate continuous powers, which is pointless in my view. The power requirements we are talking about is peak power and these can be very high indeed, particularly on good recordings.

Remember, a recording with good dynamic range may have peaks 20dB above the contiuous power, and of course this means a peak power 100 times higher than the continuous power, amplifiers rarely run out of continuous power but clipped peaks are all to common.

What about 'dynamic power ratings' from manufacturers. Say for instance a manufacturer claims the following: 30 Watts Continuous 0.004% THD, "Dynamic power of 60W at 8 ohm, and 100W at 4 Ohm and 165W at 2 ohm..." How realistic are these ratings? Wouldn't that take care of most of the peaks above 20dB if you are close to the speakers?

Ahh your thinking of nad

 

[tonky]

I've listened to a number of amps over the years. I've had Epos es14 speakers for the last 9/10 years. 86 db per watt efficiency (I think). The amps I have Rega Brio (early model) 30w per channel, Pioneer A400 (50W per channel) , Cambridge 840A v2 (120W per channel) and finally, Naim unitilite (50W per channel). (Also had Cyrus 2 and A and R A60) I've listened to all of them through the epos speakers. The Brio and the A400 sound very nice at moderate volumes but if you push them to higher volumes (and I don't mean ears splitting) - just moderately loud. They do get strained and will eventually sound harsh. The 840A v2 is soooo powerful - totally unstrained.Distortion is so low you don't realise how loud it is. It is does not sound harsh at loud volumes. It has so much in reserve. BUT - I prefer the sound of the Naim unitilite. The overall sound is just better - it has a fuller, richer sound compared to the others. It brings out a lovely toe tapping extended bass from the Epos es 14 which the other amps (including the Cambridge) just don't do. One thing I have realised is that to enjoy the music I listen to doesn't necessarily mean having the most finely detailed or powerfull amp. The Naim's 50 W p c sounds so much better ( and louder) than the Brio and the A400. But doesn't compete in the loudness stakes compared to the 840A v2.

Tonky

 

[tonky]

One of my poorer typos. Of course it's 86db/w . for the epos es 14.

thanks for pointing it out - a great review of those speakers from that site by the way. I think the minimalist crossover design is a feature in its production of its clear explicit soundstage.

tonky

 

[matt49]

Remember, a recording with good dynamic range may have peaks 20dB above the contiuous power, and of course this means a peak power 100 times higher than the continuous power, amplifiers rarely run out of continuous power but clipped peaks are all too common.

I think this deserves to be highlighted. It's also (one of) the conclusion(s) of the Harbeth User Group thread I've been banging on about. A piece of Baroque chamber music can be played pretty loud and only draw around 7 or 8W. Play Massive Attack OTOH and you'll need vastly more power to reproduce the bass lines.

 

[davedotco]

I consider manufacturers written specifications to be largely fantasy, partly because the right specs are neither measured nor quoted but mainly for marketing reasons. One spec that is quite enlightening, when quoted, is the maximum power drawn by the amplifier. Three amplifiers, all very well known to this forum, with RMS power ratings of around 50-60 watts have power supplies rated at 150, 350 and 500 VA.

Peak power capability is interesting though, the theory is simple enough, it is √2 times the RMS power, ie a genuine 50 watt RMS amplifier can produce √2 x 50, about 72 watts peak.

But strangely, some amplifiers seem capable of handling much higher peaks than that, possibly they have the ability to produce very short term (milliseconds) of current that handle very high peaks with ease but this is not my area of expertese so I am happy to be corrected.

However the effect is real enough, many on here will have heard it and might go some way to explaining why some watts seem more powerful than others.

 

[gasolin]

I consider manufacturers written specifications to be largely fantasy, partly because the right specs are neither measured nor quoted but mainly for marketing reasons. One spec that is quite enlightening, when quoted, is the maximum power drawn by the amplifier. Three amplifiers, all very well known to this forum, with RMS power ratings of around 50-60 watts have power supplies rated at 150, 350 and 500 VA.

Peak power capability is interesting though, the theory is simple enough, it is √2 times the RMS power, ie a genuine 50 watt RMS amplifier can produce √2 x 50, about 72 watts peak.

But strangely, some amplifiers seem capable of handling much higher peaks than that, possibly they have the ability to produce very short term (milliseconds) of current that handle very high peaks with ease but this is not my area of expertese so I am happy to be corrected.

However the effect is real enough, many on here will have heard it and might go some way to explaining why some watts seem more powerful than others.

Should be right in my case,, marantz PM6005 155watt power consumption 2x 60 watt rms in 4ohm that would be about 2x75 watt peak in 4ohm

 

[Paulq]

Should be right in my case,, marantz PM6005 155watt power consumption 2x 60 watt rms in 4ohm that would be about 2x75 watt peak in 4ohm

So does that make the PM6005 a 'good' amp or in the category of 'low power so less good'? (Serious question by the way - I have one and am curious from a technical perspective).

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Well I had a marantz pm6005 then upgraded to a marantz pm8005 I got this amp for 2 reasons 1 I wanted a better quality sound and the other is I wanted a bit more power 70wts per channel is more then anyone needs and drives my speakers lovely and goes loud when I want it to that's all there is to it . But I would say some speakers draw more power from some amps so the need for a big amp with big watts that would be my reasoning in buy something powerful

 

[davedotco]

Should be right in my case,, marantz PM6005 155watt power consumption 2x 60 watt rms in 4ohm that would be about 2x75 watt peak in 4ohm

So does that make the PM6005 a 'good' amp or in the category of 'low power so less good'? (Serious question by the way - I have one and am curious from a technical perspective).

Conventional amps with conventional power supplies are really not that efficient, 40-60% is normal. Switch mode supplies such as those in Marantz M-CR all in ones are much more efficient so can be much smaller.

So for this amplifier we are looking at an amp that can supply about 90va continuously.

Now amplifiers do not draw power fron the power supply, the power is pulled from the capacitors, the 90va is the rate that the power supply can 'replace' the power drawn from these capacitors. Now if you have an amplifier that has lots of capacitance in the power supply, then depending on their size and rating, they can supply the huge peaks required for the accurate reproduction of recorded music.

However if these peaks are large enough and come often enough, the power supply can not keep up, so the power in the capacitors drops or sags. If this happens the amplifier starts running out of power and clips at much lower levels than expected which makes the amplifier sound harsh at worst or over loud at best.

The best amplifiers have big power supplies and lots of capacitance, both are expensive which is why budget amps have neither and easily run into peak clipping when asked to work just a little bit harder.

 

[davedotco]

I have never had an issue with clipping on any of the amps I have owned in my life time I would say you would be pushing the amp very hard for it to do that to the speakers. And with marantz amps they go into protection mode if pushed to hard

How do you know? Do you even know what unclipped music playback sounds like? Do you even play music that has decent dynamic range? I have no idea, do you?

Marantz, like most budget amplifiers protect against pushing the continuous power beyond safe limits, there is no effective protection against clipping on peaks.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I have never had an issue with clipping on any of the amps I have owned in my life time I would say you would be pushing the amp very hard for it to do that to the speakers. And with marantz amps they go into protection mode if pushed too hard past there output . And also you start to lose quality but maybe with the big boy amps they do not lose there quality when pushed and then your limited by the speakers out put

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I have never had an issue with clipping on any of the amps I have owned in my life time I would say you would be pushing the amp very hard for it to do that to the speakers. And with marantz amps they go into protection mode if pushed to hard

How do you know? Do you even know what unclipped music playback sounds like? Do you even play music that has decent dynamic range? I have no idea, do you?

Marantz, like most budget amplifiers protect against pushing the continuous power beyond safe limits, there is no effective protection against clipping on peaks.

yes I have lots of CDs with good dynamic range but also learnt that good speakers and amp can make a difference to poor recordings

 

[davedotco]

I have never had an issue with clipping on any of the amps I have owned in my life time I would say you would be pushing the amp very hard for it to do that to the speakers. And with marantz amps they go into protection mode if pushed too hard past there output . And also you start to lose quality but maybe with the big boy amps they do not lose there quality when pushed and then your limited by the speakers out put

Because you are overdriving the amp....*dash1*

It causes clipping that is auduble as high freqency harshness and may contribute to low frquency boom due to power supply sag.

So, yes, you do have an issue with clipping, despite what you say.

Speaker power handling is much, much higer than you think, The most powerful amplifier I have ever owned measured 273 watts, 1khz, one channel driven. On dynamic material 300 watt peaks equate to a continuous power of about 5-10 watts maximum, well within the 30 watt handling of the speakers and bl**dy loud.

 

[gasolin]

What's most importent is that it has to sound good, who want's to have a 200watt amp if it sounds like garbage trying to play loud

But it won't, assuming it is a competent design, thats the point.

It will sound better at lower levels too, better control of the speaker brings lower distortion and greater clarity, dynamics are more explosive and the music will sound more alive.

If you ever get the opportunity to live with a decent big amplifier, do try it. (don't mess around though, 200 watts or better)

I have had a big amp (as i have mentioned), a small budget amp for under 300£,400€ i would personally go for sound rather then, let's say 100watt + in 8ohm, in most cases 100watt + in 8ohm with that budget means if it had to be new, a cheap amp, where it's only made for playing loud on a very low budget (like a budget pa amp) or buying an old amp (how long will it last before somthing doesn't work)

Most of us is not using cerwin vega or klipsch speakers with an above avarage high sensitivity for huge dynamic headroom, even with a nad 3020, must of os have normal sensitive speakers (86-89db) and don't use more then about 50 watt when playing loud, okay 100 watt or 150 watt will get you alot less distortion when playing 50 watt(but the price difference can be huge).

If i wanted a bigger amp (more watt) and i like the sound from marantz, i could get and PM8005, it's only 80 pr channel in 8 ohm and the price is 2.5 times that of a PM6005 (where i live)

Mabye somtimes more sentive speakers are much cheaper then buying a more powerfull amp, if i have the space q acoustics 2050i (92db) instaed of a new more powerfull amp would be cheapest

What would you choose for lots of power?

sensitive speakers (lets say 92db+) and a small tube amp,nad D3020 or some normal sensitive speaker (86-87db) and a powerfull mabye 200 watt amp

 

[Blacksabbath25]

A very important point worth noting is that the majority of damage done to loudspeakers in general is caused by the incorrect use of low powered amplifiers. This is not to say that a low powered amplifier is not suitable, it means that some operators are not aware of the limits of their Hi-Fi system as a whole. Manufacturers of amplifiers will supply information in their user manuals as to the amplifiers maximum output power, expressed in WATTS per channel. Eg. 60W/ch. This figure is useful in ascertaining the approximate output level of the amplifier (in loudness) and for appropriate matching to loudspeakers. NOTE:- This maximum power usually occurs before full scale on the volume control. eg. full scale being 10 or 0dBThe electronics in an amplifier provides an amount of gain that amplifies (multiplies) the incoming signal. The amplifiers output is relative to the amount of input level applied. If the input level is very high (as is the case if CD players are connected when compared to cassette decks or tuners) then the maximum output power is reached well before the volume control is at full. With a CD player this may occur anywhere from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock on the volume dial.If at this point the volume is increased further, the amplifier's maximum capabilities will have been exceeded and starts to distort the music. The more the volume is turned up, the greater the amount of distortion. The distortion that occurs is known as 'clipping' and it is the term given to the flat topping of the waveform when the amplifier's maximum output has been exceeded (see Figure 1). The effect of this on loudspeakers over a prolonged period is an over heating of the voice coils on the individual speaker units and their eventual failure. An amplifier's capabilities are limited by the size of its power supply and how much voltage it can deliver (as a cars capabilities are limited by the size and type of its engine). The more voltage supply there is, the greater the amount of output level before 'clipping' occurs. There are other factors involved with the amount of output level achieved, but this is the basic concept.

Figure 1. Generally the use of tone controls, we hope, will be unnecessary. Most quality speakers have been designed to deliver a flat frequency response and a well balanced sound reproduction. However, in some listening environments this balance may be distorted by room effects. Tone controls in this case can then be used to compensate for these problems. If you do need to turn the tone controls up, whether it is for room acoustics or personal taste, then it is worth noting the effect as far as output power and 'clipping' is concerned. Bass and treble controls adjust the level of a selected range of frequencies in addition to the volume control which adjusts the level at all frequencies. If an amplifier is already being driven at full power and the bass and treble is then turned up, the result is 'clipping' and likely failure of the speakers. This can be explained best by use of a diagram:- Figure 2. shows' the output at a moderate listening level, with and without the use of tone controls. At this level there is no danger in using tone controls. Figure 3. shows' the output at maximum power. With no tone controls being used at maximum power there is no danger. But if the tone controls are then turned up, the bass and treble regions will be driven into 'clipping'. In this instance the bass drivers are quite likely to be damaged as well as the tweeters. All speakers are given a power rating equivalent to that of the maximum size amplifier that can be used, driven at full power. For example a rating of 100 Watts means that the speakers can safely handle a l00 Watt RMS/ch amplifier driven at full power without 'clipping'. This does not mean that a smaller amplifier cannot be used. Smaller amplifiers can successfully be used, again without being driven into 'clipping'. Consider this:- If a sports car can go 300mph it does not mean that it has to be driven at 300mph all the time (you're not allowed to anyway!). In the case of a 500Watt speaker, a l00Watt amplifier can quite safely be used. But if a 300, 400 or 500Watt amplifier was used, the sonic performance will be greatly enhanced and the speaker's real abilities will be demonstrated. Speakers can also safely be driven with much larger powered amplifiers as long as the limits of the speakers are respected and the system as a whole is treated with respect. Sometimes a larger amplifier is actually safer to use as they will not be driven into 'clipping' as easily due to the high output levels that can be achieved.

 

[Vladimir]

Some of you may remember when we had similar topic before, we mentioned Alan Shaw recorded and posted audio clips on their forum with clean music playback and one with little bit of clipping amp distortion to it. The clipping amp sounded better as if it had more detail and richer harmonics, which technically it did. It had added harmonic distortion. But that was on the cusp of clipping, and as soon as you turn up further it becomes harsh. So when you buy an amp that has low power, you are often stuck in that sweetspot of just a bit of clipping mixing with the clean signal. If you go louder it becomes nasty. In other tests (Harman IIRC) the results showed that elevated noise floor simulates the effect of added loudness.

Of course the word Naim keep coming up in these threads. They have high noise, low power, low damping factor, outdated electronics design, bold* marketing and cult following, all at very high prices. Different sells, even if it is worse than the mediocre. Same with vinyl, valve amps... People want it but don't want to be told it's inferior, overpriced and a scam. If you paid through the nose for something you want it to be the best, exclusive and highest value for your money. You want to be congratulated and envied by your peers for being so brilliant in your purchase and everyone to lust for those golden calfs as you do. Then why the hell are you reading this? It spoils everything!

* not bald

 

[gasolin]

Should be right in my case,, marantz PM6005 155watt power consumption 2x 60 watt rms in 4ohm that would be about 2x75 watt peak in 4ohm

So does that make the PM6005 a 'good' amp or in the category of 'low power so less good'? (Serious question by the way - I have one and am curious from a technical perspective).

No

It just shows that if your amp have a power consumption of 155 watt it should according davedotco (if what he claim is true) have about half of it's a max peak power pr channel, that makes it about 2x75 watt as it's rated at 60 rms watt in 4ohm, 75watt peak power in 4 ohm wouldn't be unrealistic.

Power consumption doesn't say anything about it being a good amp.

 

[gasolin]

Well I had a marantz pm6005 then upgraded to a marantz pm8005 I got this amp for 2 reasons 1 I wanted a better quality sound and the other is I wanted a bit more power 70wts per channel is more then anyone needs and drives my speakers lovely and goes loud when I want it to that's all there is to it . But I would say some speakers draw more power from some amps so the need for a big amp with big watts that would be my reasoning in buy something powerful

89 db sensitivity and 100watt rms in 4 ohm, you should have alot of power to play beyond normal listening levels

 

[gasolin]

Should be right in my case,, marantz PM6005 155watt power consumption 2x 60 watt rms in 4ohm that would be about 2x75 watt peak in 4ohm

So does that make the PM6005 a 'good' amp or in the category of 'low power so less good'? (Serious question by the way - I have one and am curious from a technical perspective).

Conventional amps with conventional power supplies are really not that efficient, 40-60% is normal. Switch mode supplies such as those in Marantz M-CR all in ones are much more efficient so can be much smaller.

So for this amplifier we are looking at an amp that can supply about 90va continuously.

Now amplifiers do not draw power fron the power supply, the power is pulled from the capacitors, the 90va is the rate that the power supply can 'replace' the power drawn from these capacitors. Now if you have an amplifier that has lots of capacitance in the power supply, then depending on their size and rating, they can supply the huge peaks required for the accurate reproduction of recorded music.

However if these peaks are large enough and come often enough, the power supply can not keep up, so the power in the capacitors drops or sags. If this happens the amplifier starts running out of power and clips at much lower levels than expected which makes the amplifier sound harsh at worst or over loud at best.

The best amplifiers have big power supplies and lots of capacitance, both are expensive which is why budget amps have neither and easily run into peak clipping when asked to work just a little bit harder.

That might be something i have heard when i play loud, some harsness, but i don't feel any distortion in normal sense, i do how ever notice the levels from trans fm and also alot of songs with tidal hifi that has a very high output,recording level, like in the old days with the peak power level meter on a tape deck, when recording you must make shure for best sound it doesn't go beyond 0db or in the red area all the time.

If music,output from youtube,tidal hifi or just a cd player is to high it could sound harsh, even distort long before a amp reaches it power limited where it naturally would sound harsh,agressive and distort when your going beyond the limiteds of the amp.

Other then that it make totally sense, the capacitors give the amp it's ability to have alot of high peak power/dynamic head room, if the power suply isn't up to it's job it can't make shure the capacitors always have enough power.

 

[iceman16]

DDC.. I have two amps...one is rated 80w/pc and the other is 35w p/c..Do you think the 80w/pc would be better overall? in same speakers?

 

[NS496]

I use a good set of Sennheiser HD535 headphones that gives me a good idea what amount of distortion is inherent in the recording. Then if I hear a different distortion when listening loudly (via speakere), you will probably know it is clipping or a room interaction... 99% of the time when I think I hear distortion and then 'examine' the track with headphones, I find the distortion is present right there in the recording - my gear is simply faithfully reproducing it . There are a remarkable amount of distortion present in many 'contemporary' recordings, and artifacts from compression etc

Our NAD 3020 B had a LED power meter back in the day. Wish more amps could have that today. Very rarely used more the 3 LED's out of possible 5 (don't know however how reliable these indicators are). using tone controls or loudness button however send LEDs lighting up (as post above explains). If never managed to 'burn' a speaker or trigger a protection circuit.

if a manufacturer manipulates 'Biasing' and noise floor or use vintage tech etc. to tune their 'sound signature' I think that adds a bit of character to the kit, and if it increases music appreciation, personally I don't mind. As an anology: My film camera adds a bit of 'noise' and artifacts to my pictures, but I prefer the result to that os my 'clinical' digital pictures.

 

[davedotco]

DDC.. I have two amps...one is rated 80w/pc and the other is 35w p/c..Do you think the 80w/pc would be better overall? in same speakers?

If the amps were identical in all respects bar power output, then the more powerful amplifier would be better, but in the real world, where amplifiers are not identical, who knows!

Bear in mind that the difference in the output of the two amplifiers is only just over 3dB. As has been explained elsewhere, subjectively a 3dB increase in measured SPL (volume) is quite small, so the difference in power between the two amplifiers is not that large in real life.

This is an issue that a lot of hi-fi enthusiasts simply do not get, if (for whatever reason) a 35 watt amplifier is not sufficient for your needs then doubling the power to 70-80 watts will only give you a small increase in output so most probably still not sufficient either. Remember, if you want something that really makes a difference, then you need a lot more power, hence my suggestion that you need 200 watts or so.

 

[Paulq]

Some of you may remember when we had similar topic before, we mentioned Alan Shaw recorded and posted audio clips on their forum with clean music playback and one with little bit of clipping amp distortion to it. The clipping amp sounded better as if it had more detail and richer harmonics, which technically it did. It had added harmonic distortion. But that was on the cusp of clipping, and as soon as you turn up further it becomes harsh. So when you buy an amp that has low power, you are often stuck in that sweetspot of just a bit of clipping mixing with the clean signal. If you go louder it becomes nasty. In other tests (Harman IIRC) the results showed that elevated noise floor simulates the effect of added loudness.

Of course the word Naim keep coming up in these threads. They have high noise, low power, low damping factor, outdated electronics design, bold* marketing and cult following, all at very high prices. Different sells, even if it is worse than the mediocre. Same with vinyl, valve amps... People want it but don't want to be told it's inferior, overpriced and a scam. If you paid through the nose for something you want it to be the best, exclusive and highest value for your money. You want to be congratulated and envied by your peers for being so brilliant in your purchase and everyone to lust for those golden calfs as you do. Then why the hell are you reading this? It spoils everything!

* not bald

Ok Vlad. I was actually considering buying some Naim stuff but, whilst I don't necessarily agree with everything you post, I'm happy to accept that you have a far greater technical understanding than I do. It's always good to learn. Will you (or others) therefore indulge me and help open my eyes to some potential alternatives that meet the criteria I have?

I need 2 systems in 2 rooms and to stream music, one is around 12 feet by 10 feet and the other about 2.5 times that size. The smaller room houses the router and NAS (hard wired to streamer) which is the source I will use playing over 7500 tracks in FLAC/24 bit format. I have no low reslution mp3's and don't use Spotify or Bluetooth other than very occasionally.

Music I listen to is mainly rock/prog rock. I like my neighbours so I don't play stupidly loud. As an indication the Marantz PM6005 I use rarely travels above 9/10 o clock.

I use the tone controls on the Marantz to very slightly accentuate the bass as I like a slightly warmer sound and full, not bloaty bass.

I was planning to buy 2 systems:

1 - Naim Unitiqute 2 and Foca Aria 906. This would be used in the small room connected to the NAS via Ethernet and controlled via n-stream.

2 - Naim NAC - C272 and NAP 250 combo for the bigger room. Connected to the network via Powerlines and playing into speakers also not yet bought but potentially from a choice of Kudos Cardea Super 10's/PMC Twenty 23's, ProAc D20r or maybe Dynaudio Contour 1.4 s. Again controlled via n-stream.

For my needs all of the above actually give me a sound I do like, are easy to control and are plenty 'loud' enough for my needs. I have demo'd them and they sound fine to me.

Aesthetically (YMMV) the systems need to look 'clean' and not like discrete Ark Royals sitting on the rack so something like the Anthem you recommended a few days ago would see me divorced 9though thanks for your efforts in this regard - she's still here though *biggrin*).

Optical/Coaxial in is a must as I sometimes send Sky HD through it.

So - what are the alternatives (more than 1 in each case if possible) that meet all of the above criteria, notwithstanding the subjectivity of sound, and also that you would recommend in line with your power requirements.

Budget for the 'small' system is £1400 (I can buy the Naim/Focal ex-dem). For the larger one around £8k minus the cost of the speaker which is £3200 so around £4800.

Then I'll go and have a listen. Thanks for the help and advice to you and others and hope I'm not being too forward in asking - I suspect there'll be others who will benefit equally from reading this.