Vladimir said:
The concensus is that nice 50 watt mid-fi amplifiers are all you need as the 'go very loud' with the volume control barely over 10 o'clock (or the digital equivelent)
You can't argue with logic like that....*unknw*
The concensus is that nice 50 watt mid-fi amplifiers are all you need as the 'go very loud' with the volume control barely over 10 o'clock (or the digital equivelent)
You can't argue with logic like that....*unknw*
Al ears
Well-known member
Paulq
Well-known member
davedotco said:
That was my (and others') point on one of many other threads on this very subject. I have never had a very powerful amp. I have never destroyed a speaker. I never listen beyond hearing limiting levels nor do I believe, do most people.
Yet there appears to be a plethora of people, admittedly far more technical than I, who continue to insist that 'more is better'. That may well be true for people who have the environment to listen at ear splitting levels but it's my belief that most people don't.
There seems to be a liking for car analogies on the subject. If I buy a Porsche then I could travel at 100 mph with less effort than I could in a Focus. But I only actually want to drive at 80 and both will do so without blowing anything up (ignoring the relative appeal of both for the sake of argument).
Logic tells me there's a reason that low - mid power amps sell so well. They do what most people want/need them to do to an good standard. No dealer that I have ever been in has ever reported mass returns of blown speakers from, e.g., Marantz and NAD amps.
Anyhow, regardless of who's right and wrong I've learned a lot but am satisfied enough that I'm probably done with the subject. I'll stick with what works for me. Thanks for all the input and the OP.
I think also that people are looking only at the specs of the speaker ie 89db etc
But budget speakers are made with budget anplification in mind.
Paring say a £5000 speaker with 89db with a low buget £300 amp will still struggle as the demands on the amp should be higher than a £500 speaker with the same sensitivity.
Thats why we should not look at specs alone but use common sense.
But budget speakers are made with budget anplification in mind.
Paring say a £5000 speaker with 89db with a low buget £300 amp will still struggle as the demands on the amp should be higher than a £500 speaker with the same sensitivity.
Thats why we should not look at specs alone but use common sense.
Paulq said:
Firstly despite Vlad's occasional macho posturing, the real benefits of extra power have 'nothing to do with volume'. In fact in many cases the more powerful amplifier will sound less loud (at the same measured level) due to lower distortion and improved dynamic range.
You may be perfectly happy with what you have, but that does not preclude you from hearing and understanding when and how something is better, what you buy is your choice as always.
As an ex dealer I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of speakers blown up by too powerful amplifiers, but have had to deal with hundreds of speakers taken apart by underpowered but overdriven amplifiers. Some designs are more stable when mistreated than others, though none are immune. I recall that in many cases the use of the NAD 'Soft Clip' function caused many speakers to be destroyed, mainly I think because some users thought it gave then licence to drive the amps as loud as they wanted.
I prefer this SPL calculator.
B&W CM1 speakers are 84dB efficient (wishfull B&W marketing department thinking). To get 95dB at listening position 3m away I need 226Wpc. Let's say the room reinforces extra 3dB, but I will still need 115Wpc amplifier to get 92dB from those CM1s. And for those that make sour faces at numbers, I also experienced this with my ears, by listening. The speakers simply sounded better and better being fed more power despite the milk carton sized boxes. If they were 87dB efficient, I would have barely passed by with 60W amp and I did that. The Pioneer A400 was running out fo power, clipping and bottoming out like no tomorrow.
With 88dB efficiency sitting at 2m away I can use a 20W amp, which is acceptable for small Naim or NAD desktop amps. But 30W amp for average efficiency in a medium sized room? Just no way. Even with 90dB speakers you need 28W to get 95db at listening position. I personally consider 50W as the bare minimum for casual listening but still easy to drive into clipping. Interestingly reading these recent amplifier threads I really do wonder if people know how clipping sounds. I'm starting to doubt it.
B&W CM1 speakers are 84dB efficient (wishfull B&W marketing department thinking). To get 95dB at listening position 3m away I need 226Wpc. Let's say the room reinforces extra 3dB, but I will still need 115Wpc amplifier to get 92dB from those CM1s. And for those that make sour faces at numbers, I also experienced this with my ears, by listening. The speakers simply sounded better and better being fed more power despite the milk carton sized boxes. If they were 87dB efficient, I would have barely passed by with 60W amp and I did that. The Pioneer A400 was running out fo power, clipping and bottoming out like no tomorrow.
With 88dB efficiency sitting at 2m away I can use a 20W amp, which is acceptable for small Naim or NAD desktop amps. But 30W amp for average efficiency in a medium sized room? Just no way. Even with 90dB speakers you need 28W to get 95db at listening position. I personally consider 50W as the bare minimum for casual listening but still easy to drive into clipping. Interestingly reading these recent amplifier threads I really do wonder if people know how clipping sounds. I'm starting to doubt it.
davedotco said:
Exactly my experience. When I moved from the Pioneer A400 to the 175W Harman/Kardon tank, it sounded less loud, dark, unexciting and regardless how loud I pushed it, I could still have a conversation in the room with guests. I think "uncomfortably loud" = clipping but people simply don't realize it.
gasolin
Well-known member
What's most importent is that it has to sound good, who want's to have a 200watt amp if it sounds like garbage trying to play loud
Vladimir said:
It seems less loud in my case also until the police knock on the door or try and have a conversation.
Composed is the word or unstressed.
Andrewjvt said:
As responsible homeowners and audiophiles we should have sound insulation on the walls and we won't have any issues enjoying our systems. They don't come to measure if you violate the SPL limits inside your house.
Vladimir said:
Pick your brains on this subject once ive moved to spain. Ive been wonderi g about these things recently.
Now i think ill put some music on and use 3.5watts max lol
gasolin said:
But it won't, assuming it is a competent design, thats the point.
It will sound better at lower levels too, better control of the speaker brings lower distortion and greater clarity, dynamics are more explosive and the music will sound more alive.
If you ever get the opportunity to live with a decent big amplifier, do try it. (don't mess around though, 200 watts or better)
jonathanRD
Well-known member
davedotco said:
The difference between 50 and 100 watts is typically about £1000. So for those who can stretch past £1500 and want an amp to keep a long time (avoiding further upgrades) where would you be pointing us?
Vladimir said:
And a decent sized power supply.
Written specs, particularly on amplifiers are mostly meaningless.
Mainstream product use every trick in the book to massage output upwards whearas more specialised manufacturers treat their customers with a bit of respect and specify accordingly.
There is nothing 'special' about "Naim watts", (or Rega, or Creek), their products are just not 'hyped' by missleading specs.
chebby
Well-known member
Vladimir said:
Designed for use with outdoor PA systems (so no room reinforcement factored in at all).
chebby
Well-known member
davedotco said:
Knowing your views on what constitutes 'true' hi-fi, can you clarify 'competent' in this instance? Do you mean something that's going to cost up in the tens of thousands when new?
It's just that you've said so many times that no-one really knows what true hi-fi sounds like unless they've heard these really expensive systems, so I am wondering if that's the kind (and price) of amp you are talking about now when you say 'competent'.
(Your merely 'competent' could be someone else's 'unobtainable dream'!)
Having owned a KW550 for a couple of years I definately agree with this. It output more than 500 watts into 8ohms and really did give every speaker I heard an extra bit of life.
Shame the ****** weighed in at over 50kg and was too expensive to keep
Shame the ****** weighed in at over 50kg and was too expensive to keep
People keep comparing frighteningly expensive amps, that happen to be very powerful, with amps that costs fractions in comparison, and are understandably less powerful - then say: “See, more power matters and it sounds better”… I would hope the expensive amps sound better!
But more realistically: Someone asks you your opinion between two amps, both say $500. Amp A delivers 40wpc 8ohm, and Amp B 80wpc in 8ohm. If ‘power matters’ then automatically you would recommend Amp B - Because, catagorically, “more watts sounds better?”. I think lots of people on here (out of experience) would not agree with such a statement… There are more nuance to choosing an amplifier at the same price points than the published power ratings. Besides, if you start talking about Decibels, and ‘current delivery’, ‘peak power’ and ‘classes’ etc, most people would just shut off anyway. @Shaxos: I think it is kind of cool that you can use your bargain Cambridge and it still sounds OK. Obviously once you upgrade to a 'proper' powerful amplifier, there will be much enjoyment in the results too. So something to look forward to.
But more realistically: Someone asks you your opinion between two amps, both say $500. Amp A delivers 40wpc 8ohm, and Amp B 80wpc in 8ohm. If ‘power matters’ then automatically you would recommend Amp B - Because, catagorically, “more watts sounds better?”. I think lots of people on here (out of experience) would not agree with such a statement… There are more nuance to choosing an amplifier at the same price points than the published power ratings. Besides, if you start talking about Decibels, and ‘current delivery’, ‘peak power’ and ‘classes’ etc, most people would just shut off anyway
. @Shaxos: I think it is kind of cool that you can use your bargain Cambridge and it still sounds OK. Obviously once you upgrade to a 'proper' powerful amplifier, there will be much enjoyment in the results too. So something to look forward to.gasolin
Well-known member
tonky said:
OMG your way off 86db http://www.stereophile.com/content/epos-es-14-loudspeaker-specifications#Cb0kW0ivVMTz9kZX.97
chebby said:
Difficult question, but I'll see what I can do.
Firstly, I'm not talking hi-end, I think we have largely been discussing budget and mid priced systems here. So I am talking about the kind of amplifier that is not expensive but is powerful enough to remove the limitations budget amplifiers have with regard to peak power delivery.
I am also of the persuasion that there is very little difference between decent power amplifiers, if differences can be heard they will usually be power related. The PMC amplifiers, now sadly discontinued, delivered 200 watts for around £1100 for a pair of monoblocks, digital, of course and entirely bling free, they could easily embarass more expensive models.
Power amplifiers of this sort of rating may seem excessive, particularly when looking at the power calculators that have been posted in the last few days.
However I do not feel that these 'calculators' are much use, they appear to rely on Ohms law, which strictly speaking does not apply to a/c, and take no account of real impedance variations let alone awkward phase angles. They are also being used to calculate continuous powers, which is pointless in my view. The power requirements we are talking about is peak power and these can be very high indeed, particularly on good recordings.
Remember, a recording with good dynamic range may have peaks 20dB above the contiuous power, and of course this means a peak power 100 times higher than the continuous power, amplifiers rarely run out of continuous power but clipped peaks are all to common.
gasolin
Well-known member
chebby said:
90 db spl,sensitivity 87db and 1 meter distance to source with a 10 db headroom requires 20watt
10 meters to source and same 90 db spl,87db sensitive speakers with a 10db headroom requires 1995watt, '
That's insane
gasolin said:
Competent high power amplifiers for hi-fi are not cheap, power supply requirements see to that.
Even digital amps with switched mode supplies that are suitable for hi-fi are still quite pricey, some cheap 'pro' style power amps are optimised for high power usage so might look good on paper but are less acceptable at lower outputs.
gasolin
Well-known member
davedotco said:
Was think about cheap high powered amps people buy because it has alot watt and a amp people buy because it sounds good but might not have 200 watt+
Had 2x Rotel rb-980bx had them bridged to 2x360watt lots of power with my jamo VII (with 2x8" push pull bass, below 30hz)
http://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/515151-jamo_concert_vii_super_rare_pre_klipsch_era_goodness.jpg
With a song from petshop boys cd very (the rubber,go west cd) som bonus track it could hand the power (not max power)
Must admit it was a song with an extreme deep electronic bass, fun to have that kind of power, but wasn't the right speakers for that kind of power and waaaay to small room
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