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When should you upgrade your hi-fi? How to control ‘upgradeitis’
Blacksabbath25
Well-known member
Yep I am looking forward to Saturday and it’s nice to meet other members on here that you have been talking to for a long time but a great shame my Yamaha decided to breakdown on me just before Saturday .
also Yamaha as a company is never taken seriously as a hifi brand for the serious people who want the best in music quality as Yamaha are known for making Av and not so much proper hifi but been making hifi for over 135 years so it would of been great to show what Yamaha was capable of and there top amplifiers are just as good as brands like luxman and so on .
also Yamaha as a company is never taken seriously as a hifi brand for the serious people who want the best in music quality as Yamaha are known for making Av and not so much proper hifi but been making hifi for over 135 years so it would of been great to show what Yamaha was capable of and there top amplifiers are just as good as brands like luxman and so on .
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
insider9 said:
Hi insider9
I forgot to ask. What about the AS2100?
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
Hey Rick, it went into protection mode for some reason and wouldn't come out of it. Hence Sabbath took it back to the dealer to be looked at.MUSICRAFT said:
Blacksabbath25
Well-known member
I phoned up the shop this morning to find out what the fault is and I was told it’s doesn’t work it’s sitting on the workbench waiting for the engineer to take a look at it .
i asked if it’s a bad fault would Yamaha do a replacement he said unlikely it will be fixed but do not worry it will not be away for weeks but the engineer also does home setups as well as being a engineer ...mmmm feels me with confidence let’s hope it’s fixed to a standard that Yamaha set our and not bogey fix. .
And it’s really depressing not having my amplifier here the Yamaha Av is ok but not the same but at least I still got music that’s the positive thing
i asked if it’s a bad fault would Yamaha do a replacement he said unlikely it will be fixed but do not worry it will not be away for weeks but the engineer also does home setups as well as being a engineer ...mmmm feels me with confidence let’s hope it’s fixed to a standard that Yamaha set our and not bogey fix. .
And it’s really depressing not having my amplifier here the Yamaha Av is ok but not the same but at least I still got music that’s the positive thing
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
It went really well. Only got back not so long ago and football was ondrummerman said:
I'll do my best to share but knackered as had a very early start and covered about 300 miles today so may not happen till tomorrow.
Big thanks to Sabbath for being a great host!
Blacksabbath25
Well-known member
Yep thanks for making the effort for coming around it was a blast !
for a start we tried my Yamaha 1070 Av hooked up to my Yamaha Cd2100 which was ok but never going to be as good as a proper stereo amplifier so we hooked up the Hegel and started to listen to the Hegel with my Dali opticon 8s using the Hegel built in streamer which was connected directly with a internet lead .
and I had my iPad with iTunes music using airplay and insider used his mobile using tidal so we where kind of flicking though a lot of tracks from heavy metal right though to blues rock music as we seem to have the same taste in music .
but some tracks I’ve never heard of before so I normally used to playing stuff I really no well and played for years so I no what to expect quality wise so I played what I knew well and insider played what he knew well but it felt like we both wanted to try as much as possible before the time had run out .
then we hooked up the Yamaha cd played to find out how good that would be with the Hegel we tried fully balanced and then co-axe connection but later on we found that the co-axe was slightly louder then the fully balanced connection which surprised me .
my impressions of the Hegel was very good it easily feels my room and drives my Dali opticon 8s which are quite power hungry and felt the Hegel wasn’t far from the same quality as my Yamaha A-S2100 in sound quality as they where quite close obviously we couldn’t try my amplifier as it’s being fixed but it would of been nice to hear the Hegel next to the A-S2100 but pretty sure they are quite close .
the Hegel gives a nice big bold detailed sound the same as my Yamaha A-S2100 does and the Hegel is a great match with my Dali’s which was a good thing because I could tell if I was getting anything new from my Dali’s with the Hegel but without having my amplifier sitting there I had to go by memory the Hegel to me felt very close to the Yamaha sound .
all I can say is what would the Hegel H360 sound like because the Hegel R is just a baby but punches some muscle for a small amplifier but would I buy one I think I would if I was in the market for a new amplifier because we all like our own styles of music presentation which I feel the Hegel falls into my style of presentation .
it was a great time I enjoyed it thanks insider I hope we can do it again it went so quick the time .
for a start we tried my Yamaha 1070 Av hooked up to my Yamaha Cd2100 which was ok but never going to be as good as a proper stereo amplifier so we hooked up the Hegel and started to listen to the Hegel with my Dali opticon 8s using the Hegel built in streamer which was connected directly with a internet lead .
and I had my iPad with iTunes music using airplay and insider used his mobile using tidal so we where kind of flicking though a lot of tracks from heavy metal right though to blues rock music as we seem to have the same taste in music .
but some tracks I’ve never heard of before so I normally used to playing stuff I really no well and played for years so I no what to expect quality wise so I played what I knew well and insider played what he knew well but it felt like we both wanted to try as much as possible before the time had run out .
then we hooked up the Yamaha cd played to find out how good that would be with the Hegel we tried fully balanced and then co-axe connection but later on we found that the co-axe was slightly louder then the fully balanced connection which surprised me .
my impressions of the Hegel was very good it easily feels my room and drives my Dali opticon 8s which are quite power hungry and felt the Hegel wasn’t far from the same quality as my Yamaha A-S2100 in sound quality as they where quite close obviously we couldn’t try my amplifier as it’s being fixed but it would of been nice to hear the Hegel next to the A-S2100 but pretty sure they are quite close .
the Hegel gives a nice big bold detailed sound the same as my Yamaha A-S2100 does and the Hegel is a great match with my Dali’s which was a good thing because I could tell if I was getting anything new from my Dali’s with the Hegel but without having my amplifier sitting there I had to go by memory the Hegel to me felt very close to the Yamaha sound .
all I can say is what would the Hegel H360 sound like because the Hegel R is just a baby but punches some muscle for a small amplifier but would I buy one I think I would if I was in the market for a new amplifier because we all like our own styles of music presentation which I feel the Hegel falls into my style of presentation .
it was a great time I enjoyed it thanks insider I hope we can do it again it went so quick the time .
Nice one. I am kind of surprised the Hegel sounds similar to the Yamaha as some reviews suggest the polar opposite.
Blacksabbath25
Well-known member
I feel the Hegel is neutral slightly on the warm side and detailed with great soundstage very much like the Yamaha with the Dali’s but what the Hegel sounds like with a different makes of speakers I do not no .
but weather insider felt the same I do not no as I never asked him as the time went so quick
but weather insider felt the same I do not no as I never asked him as the time went so quick
INTRO
I probably need to start from saying that due to unforseen circumstances we didn't have as much time as planned. My son needed me to pick him up earlier. That was the most disappointing but I couldn't really say no having driven to Cambridge in a first place we still had good few hours of listening. Although I haven't played any jazz... I'm sure you're happy about that bit Sabbath I did bring a few CDs I've not played and have a whole Tidal playlist.
Once again thanks for having me, it was great!
DISCLAIMER
I can't offer any comparisons to Yamaha A-S2100. I'm yet to hear an integrated of theirs at that level. Budget offerings I've heard sounded nothing like what I've been told and read about A-S2100. What I can comment is overall presentation and how it compares to my system in regards to what Hegel does.
I will also start from saying that although I do like Dali sound having owned Zensor 3, 104 and Concept 6. I have not heard Opticon 8s before, only the Epicons. And I was not familiar with the room either. It would be worth noting that acustically the room was a welcome surprise. And no I wasn't expecting a disaster but it was easily much better than average. No bass overhang with speakers behaving very well in their positions. With careful thoughtful setup. Overall, quality setup with lovely rack to match too. Visually Hegel didn't look like much. These Yamaha boxes are seriously big and chunky and look really well made. Luckily Hegel more than made up it's plain looks with the sound.
AMP
In terms of ability of an amp to drive speakers it broke no sweat. I didn't sound strained at any volume and we did push it a few times. I also don't think that Hegel contributed much to tonal character. That's based on how it performes and measures in my setup. I was surpirsed with Sabbath saying it sound close to Yamaha. He did however say that Yamaha in some ways was close to valve sound which Hegel is nothing like. I think this was meant to picture how vocals were presented but I might be wrong... (?) What we got was definitely natural and not neutral which I commented at the time.
What I was seriosuly surprised with is how little time we spent doing anything other than playing music via DLNA (Tidal, myself) and Airplay (Apple Music, Sabbath) just alternating the tracks. That implies using Rost as all in one solution with it's built in DAC. All we did was connect it to LAN and I typed up Wifi password in my phone and we were playing music.
SYSTEM SOUND
Setup overall sounded big, bold, dynamic, with a lot of drive and excellent rhythm. Drums in particular sounded full and with lovely attack, cymbals had a enough bite but also plenty of sparkle. Soundstage was wide and with lovely depth. Vocals were rich and big and I mean big. We have discussed this and felt it was down to speakers. I felt that a leaner sounding amp+source would be better suited to this setup as even though we had plenty of detail it was not as easy to pick it out for me. With large size of instruments populating the soundstage it felt somewhat congested. It can be that I'm just used to slightly different presentation. But my opinion is that a leaner sounding amp+source combo would maximise the potential of these Dalis. I wish I brought Densen as it could potentially be a lovely match with some of the euphonic qualities I believe Yamaha has (?)
Overall I really, really enjoyed it and hope above doesn't come as criticism. As it's meant in the best possible way. The components played of each other strengths and created a very muscial whole. Fans of neutral would not be catered for but what you do get is the thrills and musical enjoyment in spades. Where I think Hegel would somewhat help Dalis was the fact I know they can sometimes be (based on other models I've heard and owned) flabby in bass but these were anything but.
COMPARISONS
We only managed to do a quick one with a CD player vs built in DAC. I wish I heard the Oppo but at that point my son was already waiting in Cambridge (40 minutes drive) to be picked up. Yamaha player was connected up via balanced inputs and digital coax. Coax indeed sounded much louder than balanced and we gave up on any meaningful comparisons.
I've not manage to tell you this Sabbath at the time but big surprise to me to as Hegel internal DACs run as if they were 2.5V inputs. I know as compared them agains HD12 (also 2.5V) and Minidsp (2V). However this was via RCAs and I fully expected balanced circuitry be level matched ot internal DAC.
OVERALL
Great fun! I couldn't sit still, Sabbath will confirm. It had me rocking, my feet tapping, it was simply playing music. There was no over emphasis on analysis of sonic virtues but good chat about music, artists, styles. Yes, there was hifi chat but more on the lines of how can you get more of this... *music2*
Setup was clearly made to convey Metal and Rock and Blues and all the inbetweens all that's close to Sabbath's heart. And it does it brilliantly. Isn't that the whole point?
I probably need to start from saying that due to unforseen circumstances we didn't have as much time as planned. My son needed me to pick him up earlier. That was the most disappointing but I couldn't really say no having driven to Cambridge in a first place we still had good few hours of listening. Although I haven't played any jazz... I'm sure you're happy about that bit Sabbath
I did bring a few CDs I've not played and have a whole Tidal playlist.Once again thanks for having me, it was great!
DISCLAIMER
I can't offer any comparisons to Yamaha A-S2100. I'm yet to hear an integrated of theirs at that level. Budget offerings I've heard sounded nothing like what I've been told and read about A-S2100. What I can comment is overall presentation and how it compares to my system in regards to what Hegel does.
I will also start from saying that although I do like Dali sound having owned Zensor 3, 104 and Concept 6. I have not heard Opticon 8s before, only the Epicons. And I was not familiar with the room either. It would be worth noting that acustically the room was a welcome surprise. And no I wasn't expecting a disaster but it was easily much better than average. No bass overhang with speakers behaving very well in their positions. With careful thoughtful setup. Overall, quality setup with lovely rack to match too. Visually Hegel didn't look like much. These Yamaha boxes are seriously big and chunky and look really well made. Luckily Hegel more than made up it's plain looks with the sound.
AMP
In terms of ability of an amp to drive speakers it broke no sweat. I didn't sound strained at any volume and we did push it a few times. I also don't think that Hegel contributed much to tonal character. That's based on how it performes and measures in my setup. I was surpirsed with Sabbath saying it sound close to Yamaha. He did however say that Yamaha in some ways was close to valve sound which Hegel is nothing like. I think this was meant to picture how vocals were presented but I might be wrong... (?) What we got was definitely natural and not neutral which I commented at the time.
What I was seriosuly surprised with is how little time we spent doing anything other than playing music via DLNA (Tidal, myself) and Airplay (Apple Music, Sabbath) just alternating the tracks. That implies using Rost as all in one solution with it's built in DAC. All we did was connect it to LAN and I typed up Wifi password in my phone and we were playing music.
SYSTEM SOUND
Setup overall sounded big, bold, dynamic, with a lot of drive and excellent rhythm. Drums in particular sounded full and with lovely attack, cymbals had a enough bite but also plenty of sparkle. Soundstage was wide and with lovely depth. Vocals were rich and big and I mean big. We have discussed this and felt it was down to speakers. I felt that a leaner sounding amp+source would be better suited to this setup as even though we had plenty of detail it was not as easy to pick it out for me. With large size of instruments populating the soundstage it felt somewhat congested. It can be that I'm just used to slightly different presentation. But my opinion is that a leaner sounding amp+source combo would maximise the potential of these Dalis. I wish I brought Densen as it could potentially be a lovely match with some of the euphonic qualities I believe Yamaha has (?)
Overall I really, really enjoyed it and hope above doesn't come as criticism. As it's meant in the best possible way. The components played of each other strengths and created a very muscial whole. Fans of neutral would not be catered for but what you do get is the thrills and musical enjoyment in spades. Where I think Hegel would somewhat help Dalis was the fact I know they can sometimes be (based on other models I've heard and owned) flabby in bass but these were anything but.
COMPARISONS
We only managed to do a quick one with a CD player vs built in DAC. I wish I heard the Oppo but at that point my son was already waiting in Cambridge (40 minutes drive) to be picked up. Yamaha player was connected up via balanced inputs and digital coax. Coax indeed sounded much louder than balanced and we gave up on any meaningful comparisons.
I've not manage to tell you this Sabbath at the time but big surprise to me to as Hegel internal DACs run as if they were 2.5V inputs. I know as compared them agains HD12 (also 2.5V) and Minidsp (2V). However this was via RCAs and I fully expected balanced circuitry be level matched ot internal DAC.
OVERALL
Great fun! I couldn't sit still, Sabbath will confirm. It had me rocking, my feet tapping, it was simply playing music. There was no over emphasis on analysis of sonic virtues but good chat about music, artists, styles. Yes, there was hifi chat but more on the lines of how can you get more of this... *music2*
Setup was clearly made to convey Metal and Rock and Blues and all the inbetweens all that's close to Sabbath's heart. And it does it brilliantly. Isn't that the whole point?
Blacksabbath25
Well-known member
Well done mate you put it better then I could of done and as I describe to you about that little extra detail which I was after I have been thinking about that and I will have to wait an till my amplifier back from repair to find out about how wide the singer is in the middle of the soundstage with my amplifier as it may of been the Hegel doing that I do not no ?
Yes my Yamaha does give a kind of valve sound a nice clear detailed warm sound but natural sound it’s hard to explain sound in words but it would of been easier if I had my Yamaha today to compare with the Hegel but felt the Hegel was a good bit of kit .
so insider if you sell it I would have it of you as a backup amplifier but you brought a good product there and I no it doesn’t look much and till you turn it on
Yes my Yamaha does give a kind of valve sound a nice clear detailed warm sound but natural sound it’s hard to explain sound in words but it would of been easier if I had my Yamaha today to compare with the Hegel but felt the Hegel was a good bit of kit .
so insider if you sell it I would have it of you as a backup amplifier but you brought a good product there and I no it doesn’t look much and till you turn it on
Yes, hard to tell without a direct comparison. It's not something that's prominent in my system hence why I thought it could be speakers. But that's just an opinion and you know everyone's got one *pardon* Like I said I don't know whether changing this would give you a sound that you'd like as much. And that's probably not a trade off you'll be willing to make.
Rost will be a hard act to follow and will have to wait and see what H190 sounds like. It's such a good one box solution that I can't see myself selling it for a good while to be honest and should H190 surpass it (which is likely) I will get some speakers and setup second system with Rost a one box system. But I'll let you know should that change
Rost will be a hard act to follow and will have to wait and see what H190 sounds like. It's such a good one box solution that I can't see myself selling it for a good while to be honest and should H190 surpass it (which is likely) I will get some speakers and setup second system with Rost a one box system. But I'll let you know should that change
Fantastic Insider. Reads like you two had fun!
If I could add ... my Cyrus system (8vs2 & PSX-R) sounds superficially more detailed. Perhaps a little more mid forward, perhaps slightly lower noisefloor due to the external power supply but bass can be thunderous if there. - The Hegel on the other hand has a cohesiveness the Cyrus can't match. Everything just sounds correct and in proportion but it too has superb attack and dynamics. The Cyrus can't do bass control like the Hegel but it is arguably easier to pick detail out ... or is it? With the Cyrus I sometimes analyse the music. With the Hegel I just listen to it and everything just sounds right. A music lovers amp and, as you pointed out Insider, a great 'one box' solution if streaming is the main source.
Insider, are you already thinking about moving the Hegel on or did I get this wrong?
Real shame that Sabbaths Yam is in hospital. The direct comparison would have made for a good read with your ability to put music into words.
As a side note, Hifi+ just reviewed Schmegels 190. Came out great. Bassy speakers will match well due to its immense control. They pointed out that due to its strong but clean treble a little bit of care needs to be taken. Perhaps it's slightly different voiced to the H90, perhaps its the speakers/system used by Hifi+ or perhaps its because I am used to Cyrus but I find the H90's treble sweet and superbly integrated, not standing out at all. It wasn't a criticism from the mag, merely a hint on system integration and if I remember correctly (I only skimmed the review in WHSmith, a little bit of warmth to the sound was pointed out too. - I believe it doesn't sound sound as HiFi as the H160.
Perhaps Rick can throw in a couple of thoughts too.
If I could add ... my Cyrus system (8vs2 & PSX-R) sounds superficially more detailed. Perhaps a little more mid forward, perhaps slightly lower noisefloor due to the external power supply but bass can be thunderous if there. - The Hegel on the other hand has a cohesiveness the Cyrus can't match. Everything just sounds correct and in proportion but it too has superb attack and dynamics. The Cyrus can't do bass control like the Hegel but it is arguably easier to pick detail out ... or is it? With the Cyrus I sometimes analyse the music. With the Hegel I just listen to it and everything just sounds right. A music lovers amp and, as you pointed out Insider, a great 'one box' solution if streaming is the main source.
Insider, are you already thinking about moving the Hegel on or did I get this wrong?
Real shame that Sabbaths Yam is in hospital. The direct comparison would have made for a good read with your ability to put music into words.
As a side note, Hifi+ just reviewed Schmegels 190. Came out great. Bassy speakers will match well due to its immense control. They pointed out that due to its strong but clean treble a little bit of care needs to be taken. Perhaps it's slightly different voiced to the H90, perhaps its the speakers/system used by Hifi+ or perhaps its because I am used to Cyrus but I find the H90's treble sweet and superbly integrated, not standing out at all. It wasn't a criticism from the mag, merely a hint on system integration and if I remember correctly (I only skimmed the review in WHSmith, a little bit of warmth to the sound was pointed out too. - I believe it doesn't sound sound as HiFi as the H160.
Perhaps Rick can throw in a couple of thoughts too.
No, not really thinking about moving on but waiting for H190. It will be a shootout which by the virtue of power H190 may win. It's only on direct comparison with Densen I could pick out where Hegel could do better as listening to it on its own it's hard to pick faults. Especially as you pointed out it makes you focus on the right things. It could be Sabbath interpreted my box swapping and thought that eventually it will be on sale. But given an excellent bargain I got from Rick it would be difficult to part with.
As to pointed out warmness of H190 and some reviews saying it's a big brother of Rost. I guess some could see it like this. For me it's got more natural timbre and like you rightly pointed out cohesiveness. That's probably why when we knew we had limited time we spent most times flicking through the tracks and not really doing some ABs.
As to pointed out warmness of H190 and some reviews saying it's a big brother of Rost. I guess some could see it like this. For me it's got more natural timbre and like you rightly pointed out cohesiveness. That's probably why when we knew we had limited time we spent most times flicking through the tracks and not really doing some ABs.
First proper listen to my system after yesterday as didn't have time earlier. After yesterday I decided not to run room correction today for first few tracks and played directly from my phone. Needed uncorrected bass after yesterday and to be fair corrected sounded slightly bright in comparison. Now after I satisfied my bass lust I switched to Roon.
Beth Hart and Joe Bonamassa new album on. First listen and really liking it.
How's listening via AV amp Sabbath, have you done any?
Beth Hart and Joe Bonamassa new album on. First listen and really liking it.
How's listening via AV amp Sabbath, have you done any?
radiorog
Well-known member
drummerman said:
Hi DM, can you clarify, the review says the h190 doesn't sound as hifi as the h160, or am I reading this wrong?
Cheers
Blacksabbath25
Well-known member
Yes I’ve listened to some old black Sabbath today the first album it sounded pretty good for a old recording as I have the deluxe version of there first album .
with the Av the soundstage isn’t so big as the Hegel soundstage but there is one with the Av but not as big and what we where talking about yesterday about the singer in the middle of the soundstage... Ozzy isn’t so fat with the Av but the detail is still there .
i can’t wait till I get my A-S2100 back
about box swapping if you come across a amplifier that you really like keep it and work with it even if it means changing your speakers because I seriously feel when you get the right mix of equipment you will understand and you will not want to let it go and that feeling of getting bored with something goes and you will enjoy your music so much as we both agreed yesterday it’s about the music really getting the very best we can out of the recording .
with the Av the soundstage isn’t so big as the Hegel soundstage but there is one with the Av but not as big and what we where talking about yesterday about the singer in the middle of the soundstage... Ozzy isn’t so fat with the Av but the detail is still there .
i can’t wait till I get my A-S2100 back
about box swapping if you come across a amplifier that you really like keep it and work with it even if it means changing your speakers because I seriously feel when you get the right mix of equipment you will understand and you will not want to let it go and that feeling of getting bored with something goes and you will enjoy your music so much as we both agreed yesterday it’s about the music really getting the very best we can out of the recording .
Review is available via Hegel website. Just read it. Not sure what DM means...radiorog said:drummerman said:
Hi DM, can you clarify, the review says the h190 doesn't sound as hifi as the h160, or am I reading this wrong?
Cheers
Thanks Sabbath appreciate the comments. Interesting observations. Maybe it was how Rost interacted with Dalis after all.
I'm aware many see box swapping as a negative. And view people who do it as always unhappy. Far from it. I really enjoy this part of a hobby. I really learn a lot through it and I thought I've had the perfect combo many times before and then another component arrived that challenged the status quo. Trust me if I buy a component I don't like it's out the door very quickly but not until I know its sound. But more and more listening to a lot of gear I find that I usually find at least a few good things even in gear I dislike.
Think of it this way I have one wife but why would I want one hifi
As to speakers there may simply not be another pair in the UK so selling them is simply out of question. Unless I buy a pair that will smash these in terms of performance. But currently not looking for any gear with H190 on horizon. Comments in hifi plus in regards to treble are not the best for my system matching.
I'm aware many see box swapping as a negative. And view people who do it as always unhappy. Far from it. I really enjoy this part of a hobby. I really learn a lot through it and I thought I've had the perfect combo many times before and then another component arrived that challenged the status quo. Trust me if I buy a component I don't like it's out the door very quickly but not until I know its sound. But more and more listening to a lot of gear I find that I usually find at least a few good things even in gear I dislike.
Think of it this way I have one wife but why would I want one hifi
As to speakers there may simply not be another pair in the UK so selling them is simply out of question. Unless I buy a pair that will smash these in terms of performance. But currently not looking for any gear with H190 on horizon. Comments in hifi plus in regards to treble are not the best for my system matching.
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