Heavy gauge wire vs Audiophile Cables

[shafesk]

I was wondering, shafesk, how many different cables you have listened to, both 'audiophile' and hardware? I ask this because you seem to have very particular views on a couple of different cables over on a different thread [QED Silver Anniversary (original) against Chord Co Silver Carnival]. Are you genuinely asking for advice or is this an open question for general discussion [or rather argument and recrimination]?

I am a little confused [but that wouldn't be the first time, nor I suspect, the last].

:?

Well I've listened to a variety of them, the QEDs and Chords for instance, some Van den huls, kimbres. I have only listened to one hardware cables, the one I am using. However, these all of these cables were within my reach before but now as I have a large run I cannot afford to have the cables. I have also not had the luxury to compare these cables with the same length of these hardware cables as I've given them away. But as far as the Van den huls go, its definitely an improvement over them, though as I've already stated they are an old pair that have had a hard life so I don't think its a fair test.

That is why I am seeking advice on whether it'd be best to spend 2 pounds per metre on audiophile cables or stick with the ones I have i.e. the hardware store cables.

Although a line from your blog suggests you've already made up your mind: '

I myself use hardware shop cables, mainly because on my budget I can't afford such a long run of audiophile cables. However, I guarantee that if I had spent the same on audiophile cables then I wouldn't have gotten my system to sound as good.'

You should be a lawyer, thats the way I see it. I'm counting on you experts to say otherwise. During my masters, my economics professor who was the advisor to Mrs. Thatcher said " I can make any theory and I am right till you prove me wrong." I my friend am hoping someone comes along and does so.

 

[shafesk]

So what 'audiophile' speaker cables can you get in Bangladesh for £2 per metre?

Nothing much atm, but I have a dealer friend who charges me his import rate. So the Chord suggested by Paul should cost me about 2.25 per metre including delivery.

 

[shafesk]

Thank you Max, we are always looking for people to share their experience and impart some wisdom. Please let me know if you or anyone else in this forum want to contribute

I'm sure I'll have one or two things I'd like to add

Thanks, Shafin...

Thats great, well you can either post the article here or I can send you an invite to AF for which I will require your email address

 

[jaxwired]

I'll throw in my 2 cents. I have exprimented with quite a few cables including cheap one. For whatever reason, I am convinced that interconnets and speaker cables sound different. That's number one, because there are many skeptics regarding even that. However, although they do sound different, I have found no correlation between price and sound I prefer. Therefore, my advice (and my own approach) is to buy several budget cables and swap them out until you find one you think is optimal. But always stay in the budget arena.

I am not a believer in mains cables at all. My advice there is to stick with factory cables. JMHO

 

[relocated]

So what 'audiophile' speaker cables can you get in Bangladesh for £2 per metre?

Nothing much atm, but I have a dealer friend who charges me his import rate. So the Chord suggested by Paul should cost me about 2.25 per metre including delivery.

" Now the main question is that if I were to spend the same amount of money on some audiophile cables (around 2 pounds per metre) would I be getting an upgrade?"

So are you saying that your wire stripper stretching hardware cables are @ £2pm? If not what quantifies this, 'same amount of money'?

You're confused???????????

 

[Alec]

So what 'audiophile' speaker cables can you get in Bangladesh for £2 per metre?

Nothing much atm, but I have a dealer friend who charges me his import rate. So the Chord suggested by Paul should cost me about 2.25 per metre including delivery.

" Now the main question is that if I were to spend the same amount of money on some audiophile cables (around 2 pounds per metre) would I be getting an upgrade?"

So are you saying that your wire stripper stretching hardware cables are @ £2pm?

I think he is, and I think you're confused.

 

[Paul.]

I should add the caviat that I wouldn't call Leyline an audiophile cable, it's an installation cable. Apparently it uses a copper/tin alloy which is very similar to the materials used in cat5 cable. It's designed specifically for long runs. At the prices your talking about I don't think you can go wrong.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you Max, we are always looking for people to share their experience and impart some wisdom. Please let me know if you or anyone else in this forum want to contribute

I'm sure I'll have one or two things I'd like to add

Thanks, Shafin...

Thats great, well you can either post the article here or I can send you an invite to AF for which I will require your email address

Hi Shafin, I'll copy and paste a piece from the blog so that we can discuss some of the points raised and advice given. The author of this is a Shafin, I presume that this is you?

Thanks..

 

[Anonymous]

I will say it straight away, there are even audiophiles who think that cables don't make a difference. However, as we all know there are many different kinds of audiophiles, some a bit more anal than others. Usually, these audiophiles do not have the kind of equipment necessary to bring out the differences in cables. If you have a budget setup and I'm talking below the 1000 pound mark, don't bother reading this. It won't make much of a difference to your setup, simple and honest.

If you are an audiophile and each of your equipment costs 500 pounds plus then you are in for a treat. I will confess, I was once a believer in the cable conspiracy theory. I used to believe that cables are a way for the audio industry to make heaps of profit by selling the metaphorical "snake oil". However, during the course of time my setup has been upgraded many times over.

You don't really notice a problem till it exists in your own world. I recently bought a Cayin a-55T, a 1500 pound amplifier. I accidentally swapped my analogue interconnects (also known as rca or red and white audio cables) with a much better pair. I just listened for 5 minutes and noticed that something has been changed in my system and it sounds much better. Everything opened up, I was hearing stuff I have never heard before. More importantly the sound signature changed, my system sounded warmer, less enforced. I checked all my cables and noticed that I had plugged in a pair of Pure AV interconnects to my dac and amplifier. The previous interconnect cost nothing, this one 40 pounds. Worth the difference? Hell yes.

So if I tell you that differences in cables don't show up unless you have a decent setup you would think that I am trying to get you into buying more expensive stuff. Well, I don't sell anything, I have nothing to gain from it, even this blog is just a leisure activity.

The reason cable differences show up in more expensive equipment is because more expensive equipment is usually what we call "more revealing". It means that you can hear more subtlety than you previously haven't noticed before. Be it someone coughing in the audience, or the breath of a singer. When you have rubbish cables they simply don't let the information pass through to the equipment. If some information goes missing from your dac to your amplifier, there is no chance that your speaker will let you hear it.

Conversely, if you use expensive interconnects on a cheap setup, the cables are carrying all the information but the amount of information available is just limited, either by your dac, cd player, amplifier or speakers.

If you are still with me then its your lucky day, I will give you some honest tips on how to make your system sound better.

First thing is first, before you decide to upgrade your cables, make sure you know the sound of your existing setup. Otherwise you will never know what you have gained/lost by changing cables. All of us are victims of the placebo, we all think that since we have spent money on something its supposed to enrich our experience.

You should now change one cable at a time, if there is a difference you will notice it within a period of a week or so, any longer just return it.

How much should I spend on cables?
Audiophiles, manufacturers and dealers usually recommend that you spend 10-15% of your total expenditure on your system on your cables. Spread the 10-15% over all the cables you need. This is a rule of thumb, if you think that your system sounds better with even more expensive cables, go for them! As long as you can justify the expense. There is a decreasing yield curve with this, at some point you won't be able to justify the additional expenditure on your hifi. STOP RIGHT THEN! Don't fall prey to shiny jewellery which won't make your hi-fi sound any better than it already does.

Speaker Cables:
Choosing your speaker cables is very tricky, but I will provide you with some tips to get you in the right direction. If you need long lengths of speaker wire always go for thicker cables. This is because resistance increases as distance increases. The more resistance increases the more power you need to maintain a given volume level. Thicker cables will let more current pass through than thin cables. If you can't afford audiophile style speaker cables then go to your local hardware shop. Buy the thickest, most well made cables you can buy. I myself use hardware shop cables, mainly because on my budget I can't afford such a long run of audiophile cables. However, I guarantee that if I had spent the same on audiophile cables then I wouldn't have gotten my system to sound as good.

One final tip-copper cables in general sound warmer than silver cables. It is up to you to choose the speaker cables that will get your system sounding in the right direction. If you have a system that sounds dull, use silver cables to liven things up. If you have a system that sounds bright, a copper cable will make it sound smoother. Do not expect cables to completely turn around the sound of your hifi, cables won't make as much a difference as would changing your speakers for instance. This is just the final 10% of the tuning.

Interconnects Analogue:
In this case I do not recommend getting hardware shop cables. Use interconnects from good brand such as Chord, QED, Pure AV or Clearer Audio among many and you will instantly notice the difference. Chord's budget interconnects are slightly warmer than QED's offering. QED's cables sound slightly more open in comparison. I use Pure AV cables between my dacmagic and my amplifier as this makes the system sound nice and crisp. A good dealer will let you take them home for a small deposit and let you choose the one which suits your system the most.

Concluding Remarks:
Cables will let you tweak your system towards the direction you like. Great results can be achieved with just a little effort. Surely the point of owning a system is hearing it at its absolute best.

Keep on listening,
Shafin.

 

[BenLaw]

Although a line from your blog suggests you've already made up your mind: '

I myself use hardware shop cables, mainly because on my budget I can't afford such a long run of audiophile cables. However, I guarantee that if I had spent the same on audiophile cables then I wouldn't have gotten my system to sound as good.'

You should be a lawyer, thats the way I see it.

You say that like it's a bad thing....

I'm counting on you experts to say otherwise. During my masters, my economics professor who was the advisor to Mrs. Thatcher said " I can make any theory and I am right till you prove me wrong." I my friend am hoping someone comes along and does so.

Well, you've listened to enough cables to make yourself about as much of an 'expert' as anyone else on here. Fwiw not only do I think you're not going to be able to improve (electrically) by buying similarly priced audophile cable, I don't think you'd be able to improve (electrically) with any price of audiophile cable.

The electrical signal for music is not special. I agree with Steve's views on this. Unless you have a particular problem which requires special shielding, you just need cable which transmits the signal. Someone else posted a table of the maximum lengths / thicknesses. Anything else that changes the sound can only be because it is corrupting the signal in some way. This is why I put '(electrically)' in the preceding paragraph, as some people will prefer the sound with the added distortion from a particular cable.

But if that's the situation, I would fall back on Rick's advice: don't use cables as tone controls. Either change your equipment, or get a graphic equaliser, cos they look 8)

Btw, no-one is going to 'prove' your theory wrong, you have been on this forum long enough to know that 'proof' isn't going to be given - it doesn't take long....

 

[BenLaw]

Shafin, just wanted to say I've had a quick look round the rest of your blog page and it's a nice site, well written and with lots of relevant subject areas, so I hope nothing I or anyone else has said will stop you continuing with the good work

 

[Anonymous]

Lastly, can we please keep it on cables, I just asked for some reccomendations :wall: It would also be great if anyone could tell me if they switched from expensive cables to hardware store ones.

Well, as you can see, there isn't an answer....or at least not a definitive one that can be agreed on. This has to be something that needs to be tried for yourself....and don't let anyone (including me), tell you what's what.

Chebby got it spot on some threads back, when he said that you are either someone who believes in the benefits of cables, isolation and stands/rack construction, or you are not.

As you know, I'm in the former camp, as I've heard the improvements.....but I certainly respect the judgement of those who have tried and failed to see what all the fuss is about.

Cno

Hi Cno, I fully agree that when it comes to cables, people should be advised to try them out, that's good advice, obviously, but by the same token, I think that people should also be advised to get a dealer or friend to switch the cables without the person knowing which is which, to blind test them.

Do you agree?

Thanks.

 

[relocated]

So what 'audiophile' speaker cables can you get in Bangladesh for £2 per metre?

Nothing much atm, but I have a dealer friend who charges me his import rate. So the Chord suggested by Paul should cost me about 2.25 per metre including delivery.

" Now the main question is that if I were to spend the same amount of money on some audiophile cables (around 2 pounds per metre) would I be getting an upgrade?"

So are you saying that your wire stripper stretching hardware cables are @ £2pm?

I think he is, and I think you're confused.

Yes Alec, well spotted. I suppose I could go into the many ways in which this thread doesn't add up; but I don't want to appear to be someone else.

I cannot see how I could add to this conversation. Oh good we are back on [a form of] ABX testing.

 

[shafesk]

So what 'audiophile' speaker cables can you get in Bangladesh for £2 per metre?

Nothing much atm, but I have a dealer friend who charges me his import rate. So the Chord suggested by Paul should cost me about 2.25 per metre including delivery.

" Now the main question is that if I were to spend the same amount of money on some audiophile cables (around 2 pounds per metre) would I be getting an upgrade?"

So are you saying that your wire stripper stretching hardware cables are @ £2pm? If not what quantifies this, 'same amount of money'?

You're confused???????????

Yes my wire stripper stretching wires are 2pm...that quantifies the same amount of money.

 

[shafesk]

Shafin, just wanted to say I've had a quick look round the rest of your blog page and it's a nice site, well written and with lots of relevant subject areas, so I hope nothing I or anyone else has said will stop you continuing with the good work

Thank you for your kind words, your friendly debates will help me learn...I do like a constructive argument and you have said absolutely nothing to offend me in any way.

 

[shafesk]

Thank you Max, we are always looking for people to share their experience and impart some wisdom. Please let me know if you or anyone else in this forum want to contribute

I'm sure I'll have one or two things I'd like to add

Thanks, Shafin...

Thats great, well you can either post the article here or I can send you an invite to AF for which I will require your email address

Hi Shafin, I'll copy and paste a piece from the blog so that we can discuss some of the points raised and advice given. The author of this is a Shafin, I presume that this is you?

Thanks..

Well thats me, I don't mean add to my advice, I meant if you want to share an article with us then I'll be happy to post it

 

[shafesk]

So what 'audiophile' speaker cables can you get in Bangladesh for £2 per metre?

Nothing much atm, but I have a dealer friend who charges me his import rate. So the Chord suggested by Paul should cost me about 2.25 per metre including delivery.

" Now the main question is that if I were to spend the same amount of money on some audiophile cables (around 2 pounds per metre) would I be getting an upgrade?"

So are you saying that your wire stripper stretching hardware cables are @ £2pm?

I think he is, and I think you're confused.

+1

 

[bigblue235]

Alright kids, listen up here :rant: This is a hi-fi forum! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, in hi-fi we are sometimes so concerned with our opinions being heard that we tend to criticise others. That is not really what this post or indeed this forum is about. Please try to get along with one another, if you don't agree with something there are very polite ways of saying so.

Lastly, can we please keep it on cables, I just asked for some reccomendations :wall: It would also be great if anyone could tell me if they switched from expensive cables to hardware store ones.

I did, but I'm only a kid And I settled for something in between (Van Damme Hi-Fi 4mm) as it made sense.

Re. your blog, if you wrote "The truth about cables" I sense much quoteyness in your future

 

[Native_bon]

Just to add here i use to use very expensive cables & my system did not sound right for over a year. then i decided let me try cheaper cables. i was blown Away!! believe me the very expensive cable sucked the life out of my system. But i dnt think am allowed to say what cable it was?.. but anyway the one i replaced it with, was chord speaker cables.

 

[Paul.]

But i dnt think am allowed to say what cable it was?..

Its fine to give a bad review of something, its just opinion. As long as it doesn't involve liable and conspiracy theories that is

 

[the record spot]

It would also be great if anyone could tell me if they switched from expensive cables to hardware store ones.

Yes, as mentioned earlier, I did exactly this with my gear. At the last count, it's a bit of a mix and match with some Atlas Navigators at one end of the spectrum and an HDMI cable that cost £7. Tesco own brand. Currently watching a movie Netflix via the latest Apple TV.

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Cno, I fully agree that when it comes to cables, people should be advised to try them out, that's good advice, obviously, but by the same token, I think that people should also be advised to get a dealer or friend to switch the cables without the person knowing which is which, to blind test them.

Do you agree?

Thanks.

Max, I agree to the extent that if you are going to spend a significant amount on cables, it's essential to do a proper assessment....this can be a blind test, bringing others to rubber stamp your findings, or whatever else you're comfortable with.

I also believe it is usually unwise to budget more on cables, than would give a bigger improvement by spending it elsewhere in the system.

 

[MajorFubar]

Just to throw my tuppence in, I was using QED 79 strand but when I bought my current speakers I bought some of this stuff:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10M-x-801-888-OFC-Speaker-Cable-521-Strand-4-0mm-40Amp-/370334497613?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item5639a7fb4d#ht_732wt_1180

Ignoring the blurb, must say I love it. The only thing I'm not too keen on regarding its sound is that it can make the midrange a bit forward. It's not what I'd call a lush-sounding cable. Though compared to the QED it's like someone's removed a veil, so that's good. It's not ridiculously expensive and it's available in various lengths all the way to 50m, so I'd heartily recommend you give it a try before spending more; it might be just what you need?

 

[6th.replicant]

Yes, but there are plenty of dealers who do think speaker cables do make a difference, and they're being honest too

As much as I don't think there's much if any differences in these things, I wouldn't use interconnects that are too basic. I've had some shoddy ones in my time. Yes, a wire is a wire and all that, but it needs to be put together properly.

I've never had a dealer 'push' expensive cables on me, quite the opposite, but I'm sure they'd let me buy some if I wanted them. I'm not sure if Rick does the same? He lists a couple of cable companies on his site, and it would be daft not to have something that someone is prepared to buy.

I bought some speaker cables from Rick a year or so ago ... they were very well made with nice thick strands of copper running through them and terminated with banana plugs, I can't remember what I payed for them but it wasn't much, and he told me that they were as good as one would need for any system...

+1 :cheers:

 

[bigblue235]

Your point being?