Harbeth speakers

[Vladimir]

I understand and it's a fair point. However, I don't think WHF asks manufacturers to send gear for review. Manufacturers buy a review in WHF according to their pricelist. A review is the most prominent advertising space for a hi-fi magazine, manufacturer advertising banners and website indexing coming in second, google ads as third and finally sale of the print edition as fourth form of reveneue in order of relevance.

Was that a typo? (Did you mean advert rather than review?)

I think review space is paid for. The outcome of a review on the other hand, I wouldn't know. Different publications do things differently. Some require a minimum ad space to grant a review of a product, some just have a pricelist on everything.
Why would it be differently?

 

[Vladimir]

I would say manufacturers can't buy stars at WHF, otherwise Yamaha, Harman, Bose, Panasonic, Pioneer and Sony would enighilate everyone.

 

[BigH]

Probably because Harbeth don't want WHF to review them. Also WHF reliy on manufacturers to send them products to review which I think is a rather dubious practice.

 

[BigH]

I'm with you tin earr. You do seem to have had some very upity responses from forum memebers so far. I also would be interested in an appraisal from 'mainstream' whathifi magazine, especially as the same manufacturers always seem to win at the various pricepoints. My hunch is that Harbeth's soundworld is likely to be out of sink with that of whathifi, although Andrew might possibly appreciate them being a classical fan.

Andrew left some time ago.

 

[cse]

You trust someone elses ears judging speakers in a room that's not the room you're going to place the speakers you buy?

If you really want to know what they sound like in your system and listening room the absolute best thing to do is get a set on loan from a dealer. What they sound like in someone elses system and room may be quite different. Guaranteed your ears are not the same as anyone elses either.

Get a loan from a dealer of Harbeth? Is this obviously meant as a joke. I think I have a fairly good idea of what they might sound like, but actually I'm vaguely interested in what someone who usually leans towards Naim, Roksan, ATC, PMC etc might think. If I ever do buy Harbeth, it will be entirely from blind as most of my best purchases have been so far. Extended listening periods, at dealers, I have found to rarely give satisfying results.

 

[alchemist 1]

I would say manufacturers can't buy stars at WHF, otherwise Yamaha, Harman, Bose, Panasonic, Pioneer and Sony would enighilate everyone.

Especially Yamaha, very contrasting reviews from WHF,compaired to other publications,

 

[tin ear]

That seems like a plausible explanation, but again, it would be helpful to get confirmation or otherwise from WHF.

Good luck with that. It took hundreds of us to yell and riot obscenely for a month just to get them to change web font size. *ROFL*

I won't hold my breath.

 

[tin ear]

Probably because Harbeth don't want WHF to review them. Also WHF reliy on manufacturers to send them products to review which I think is a rather dubious practice.

And what do you base this on?

 

[davedotco]

What Hi-fi is a serious organisation, it reviews dozens of products a month on a very tight schedule. They have manufacturers and distributers falling all over themselves to have their product reviewed. WHF will only very rarely step outside this format and source product that they have not been offered.

The reviews are 'straight', ie there is no requirement for reviews to be favourable placed on the reviewers, other than the simple fact that WHF relies on a prosperous and thriving market for it's very existance. They are not going to be hyper critical and, in general, they buy into the marketing of the major players.

Also some of the reviewers/jounalists are simply gaining experience as 'writers' before moving on to more prestigious positions at What Car, so that they get to play with the Pagani Zonda that was in their car park last time I visited Teddington.

From the manufacturer/distributer point of view WHF is a mass market magazine, ideal for the mainstream manufacturers with a big catalogue who can have product featuring virtually every month. It is the continuous presence of these brands that deliver sales, not specific reviews, 5* or otherwise.

A single good review for a specialist company (Harbeth say) will have a negligeable impact on their sales and is more trouble than it is worth. Some specialist companies feel differently but not many, they have better ways of marketing their product.

 

[tin ear]

I appreciate the candour of WHF's reviews and they're not confined to audio gear from mainstream manufacturers.

 

[davedotco]

I appreciate the candour of WHF's reviews and they're not confined to audio gear from mainstream manufacturers.

You have to remember that you are getting the opinions of a group of young men who work within the 'bubble' of WHF.

I am entirely confident that they write honestly but, a big but, they do so from within a confined environment both physically and mentally. They listen in treated rooms, so have little idea how some products interact in the real world, they use reference systems and listen sighted, all factors that tend to skew evaluations.

They also tend to buy into the 'hype' in a general sense, this months offerings are better than last months offerings, certain manufacturers 'always' make better products etc, etc.

What tends to sell product is the blanket coverage of 'famous names' product, not just reviews and manufacturers advertising but the pages and pages of dealer ads all featuring similar product. It is brand reinforcement on that level that really shifts product.

Sure they will review product from less mainstream manufacturers but many prefer to stay clear. When i was 'doing' marketing (for an import/distribution company) I got some great reviews for less well known brands, many in WHF, but it made little difference to sales. The boss liked it because he thought it was 'raising the profile' and the manufactures could use reprints of the reviews in there own marketing elsewhere in the world.

In fact I can think of one or two manufacturers who stayed in the UK market despite miniscule sales, simply for the coverage in the (known to be honest) british hi-fi press that I and others like me obtained for them.

 

[davedotco]

Well I can't claim to have your insight into the inner workings of WHF. However, what I can say is that I've found WHF's reviews of hi fi equipment from manufacturers outside of the "mainstream" reliable enough for my use.

Fair enough.

Personally I find their comments on equipment in general to lack detail and insight. I find the often do not 'get' what some of the more esoteric products are trying to do.

But thats ok, they are a consistent and reliable source of information, particularly for the budget and mid-fi orientated market that dominates in the uk. There is no point in criticising them for not being 'Stereophile', they are not trying to be. They are what they are and all things considered I think they do a pretty good job.

 

[tin ear]

I read Stereophile too but they do go on at times.

 

[tin ear]

Well I can't claim to have your insight into the inner workings of WHF. However, what I can say is that I've found WHF's reviews of hi fi equipment from manufacturers outside of the "mainstream" reliable enough for my use.

 

[davedotco]

I read Stereophile too but they do go on at times.

True, they do seem overly verbose at times.

But then the quality of the writing and comment in it's current incarnation is nothing like it was in it's heyday.

 

[tin ear]

I suspect that my interest in hi fi developed well after Stereophile's heyday.

 

[davedotco]

I suspect that my interest in hi fi developed well after Stereophile's heyday.

Go onto their website and pick a type of component in 'Reviews', select 'Date published' and go to the oldest entries, you should find some stuff from the 80s, have a read of some of the more famous designs.

Lots of content from J Gordon Holt himself, see what you think.

 

[tin ear]

Stereophile does reproduce articles from yesteryear. They've been doing it quite a bit lately and I've read a few of those.

 

[Vladimir]

I can imagine a Chinese General/Industrialist/Businessman/Philantropist coming in Andy's office, smacking his face with a throw of American deficit buyout cash and the translator shouting "5 stars on everything from my factory!"

But only to get a "Sorry. Bank holiday, can't help you."

 

[BigH]

Probably because Harbeth don't want WHF to review them. Also WHF reliy on manufacturers to send them products to review which I think is a rather dubious practice.

And what do you base this on?

One if they did they would have send WHF some to review. Also if you read the Harbeth forum you will soon see their views on hifi products are somewhat different from WHF views. Read some of Alan Shaw's comments on speaker cables for instance.

If you are referring to sending in products they are several reasons for that view, one you only get what manufacturers choose to send in, 2 how do you know its a standard product and not some tweeked for review one? Also you get this problem no Harbeth reviews, no Creek reviews etc.

Anyway I would not rely on one mags review, some of WHF reviews have been well out of line with other reviews. Also most the reviews get 4 or 5 stars.

What I understand Harbeth sells far more speakers outside the UK than within, just look how many UK dealers they have, from memory it was about 7, so I dont think they are bothered about WHF, they get good reviews in other mags.

 

[davedotco]

Probably because Harbeth don't want WHF to review them. Also WHF reliy on manufacturers to send them products to review which I think is a rather dubious practice.

And what do you base this on?

One if they did they would have send WHF some to review. Also if you read the Harbeth forum you will soon see their views on hifi products are somewhat different from WHF views. Read some of Alan Shaw's comments on speaker cables for instance.

If you are referring to sending in products they are several reasons for that view, one you only get what manufacturers choose to send in, 2 how do you know its a standard product and not some tweeked for review one? Also you get this problem no Harbeth reviews, no Creek reviews etc.

Anyway I would not rely on one mags review, some of WHF reviews have been well out of line with other reviews. Also most the reviews get 4 or 5 stars.

What I understand Harbeth sells far more speakers outside the UK than within, just look how many UK dealers they have, from memory it was about 7, so I dont think they are bothered about WHF, they get good reviews in other mags.

Generally speaking product that goes for review is often 'not standard'. At the very least it will be checked that it works properly and is fully functional, in some cases several different models will be checked and the 'best' send for review.

In some cases an important product may be 'blueprinted', essentially taken apart and rebuilt to meet or exceed all specifications, less often done these days as few magazines carry out measurements.

You are quite right in other respects, particularly the fact that most successful 'esoteric' british brands concentrate heavily on their export business. One unfortunate consequence of this strategy is that UK prices from these companies is often higher than it needs to be.

 

[tin ear]

Probably because Harbeth don't want WHF to review them. Also WHF reliy on manufacturers to send them products to review which I think is a rather dubious practice.

And what do you base this on?

One if they did they would have send WHF some to review. Also if you read the Harbeth forum you will soon see their views on hifi products are somewhat different from WHF views. Read some of Alan Shaw's comments on speaker cables for instance.

If you are referring to sending in products they are several reasons for that view, one you only get what manufacturers choose to send in, 2 how do you know its a standard product and not some tweeked for review one? Also you get this problem no Harbeth reviews, no Creek reviews etc.

Anyway I would not rely on one mags review, some of WHF reviews have been well out of line with other reviews. Also most the reviews get 4 or 5 stars.

What I understand Harbeth sells far more speakers outside the UK than within, just look how many UK dealers they have, from memory it was about 7, so I dont think they are bothered about WHF, they get good reviews in other mags.

If it's simply a matter of Harbeth not submitting review samples or not wanting WHF to review their speakers then so be it, but that is just conjecture in the absence of confirmation from WHF and/or Harbeth. I have been reading the Harbeth User Group forum and fail to see how what is written there would have any bearing on why I'm yet to see a Harbeth review here. I would think that Alan Shaw's views on amplifiers and cables would be at odds with most, if not all hi fi publications, but that has not dissuaded the likes of Stereophile and The Absolute Sound from giving his speakers glowing reviews. So I very much doubt that WHF would be particularly precious about that.

As I've said, my understanding is that hi fi publications are approached by hi fi manufacturers to review their products, and they also request product samples from hi fi manufacturers for review. WHF may operate differently as Vladimir opined earlier in this thread, but we would need WHF to confirm that. To suggest that manufacturers are sending in "doped" versions of their products for review sounds like a conspiracy theory without any basis in fact to me. And WHF has reviewed Creek products by the way.

I do read other hi fi publications which means that I don't soley rely on WHF as a source of information. As I've said repeatedly now, it just so happens that WHF's reviews have aligned with my own impressions of audio gear that I've auditioned. So I have found them to be quite reliable. I'm sure there are others who have had very different experiences. This is an inherently subjective pursuit after all. And WHF does give three star ratings by the way.

Andy Clough is more than welcome to chime in.

 

[Macspur]

Probably because Harbeth don't want WHF to review them. Also WHF reliy on manufacturers to send them products to review which I think is a rather dubious practice.

And what do you base this on?

One if they did they would have send WHF some to review. Also if you read the Harbeth forum you will soon see their views on hifi products are somewhat different from WHF views. Read some of Alan Shaw's comments on speaker cables for instance.

If you are referring to sending in products they are several reasons for that view, one you only get what manufacturers choose to send in, 2 how do you know its a standard product and not some tweeked for review one? Also you get this problem no Harbeth reviews, no Creek reviews etc.

Anyway I would not rely on one mags review, some of WHF reviews have been well out of line with other reviews. Also most the reviews get 4 or 5 stars.

What I understand Harbeth sells far more speakers outside the UK than within, just look how many UK dealers they have, from memory it was about 7, so I dont think they are bothered about WHF, they get good reviews in other mags.

Generally speaking product that goes for review is often 'not standard'. At the very least it will be checked that it works properly and is fully functional, in some cases several different models will be checked and the 'best' send for review.

In some cases an important product may be 'blueprinted', essentially taken apart and rebuilt to meet or exceed all specifications, less often done these days as few magazines carry out measurements.

You are quite right in other respects, particularly the fact that most successful 'esoteric' british brands concentrate heavily on their export business. One unfortunate consequence of this strategy is that UK prices from these companies is often higher than it needs to be.

Fortunately this doesn't apply to Harbeth, one of the most compettatively priced quality loudspeaker around.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[davedotco]

Probably because Harbeth don't want WHF to review them. Also WHF reliy on manufacturers to send them products to review which I think is a rather dubious practice.

And what do you base this on?

One if they did they would have send WHF some to review. Also if you read the Harbeth forum you will soon see their views on hifi products are somewhat different from WHF views. Read some of Alan Shaw's comments on speaker cables for instance.

If you are referring to sending in products they are several reasons for that view, one you only get what manufacturers choose to send in, 2 how do you know its a standard product and not some tweeked for review one? Also you get this problem no Harbeth reviews, no Creek reviews etc.

Anyway I would not rely on one mags review, some of WHF reviews have been well out of line with other reviews. Also most the reviews get 4 or 5 stars.

What I understand Harbeth sells far more speakers outside the UK than within, just look how many UK dealers they have, from memory it was about 7, so I dont think they are bothered about WHF, they get good reviews in other mags.

Generally speaking product that goes for review is often 'not standard'. At the very least it will be checked that it works properly and is fully functional, in some cases several different models will be checked and the 'best' send for review.

In some cases an important product may be 'blueprinted', essentially taken apart and rebuilt to meet or exceed all specifications, less often done these days as few magazines carry out measurements.

You are quite right in other respects, particularly the fact that most successful 'esoteric' british brands concentrate heavily on their export business. One unfortunate consequence of this strategy is that UK prices from these companies is often higher than it needs to be.

Fortunately this doesn't apply to Harbeth, one of the most compettatively priced quality loudspeaker around.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

A quick comparison of UK and US pricing for Harbeth product suggests that you are quite correct in this instance.

Not always the case with british product though, a prime example being Rega in the 80s and 90s, product supply kept tight in the uk and prices high, it was easier to buy their product in the US, or Australia (I know this from personal experience) and get them for prices that were virtually the same as the UK prices.

Nothing wrong with this of course, simply a different business model.

 

[steve_1979]

I think that WHF reviews are generally pretty good. Some of it like cables and high end DAC's is just pure foo but I can accept that they are a business first and foremost and need to do this to survive.

But many of their reviews for things like speakers and headphones are very good. The star system is useless with practically everything getting 5 stars but the words and pictures are very informative.

Take the Grado 325 and Sennheiser HD700 reviews for example. Personally I would have given the Grado's 4 stars and the Sennheiser's 5 stars (I know they're in different price brackets). But when you read the descriptions in the write ups they're spot on. The same can be said for many of their reviews and can be very good.

You just have to accept HiFi mags for what they are in the end. A business first and a source of information/entertainment second.