Harbeth speakers

[Deleted member 108165]

Yeah whatever!

After a WHF-free fortnight I just returned today, and a moment ago a rather lengthy reply to Matt49's Devialet post just vanished when posted...*dash1*

I think I've had it with this forum!

I wish you all the best!

I got into a habit (from other forums years back) of copying any post I make that's longer than a couple of sentences prior to hitting 'post'. So if it vanishes into the ether it's just a quick 'paste' away.

I even find myself doing it with emails!

Me too, but this new version does not allow cut and paste..grrr! Would appear that no one at WHF is listening and in the meantime we're losing excellent contributors. I'm not what you would consider a regular poster but even I am getting more than a little pee'd off. Christ most of the forums I visit even have spellcheck. This new site is carp!!

 

[Native_bon]

'So, what is the precise function of a review? For whom is the reviewer writing? Who rewards him? What qualifications or credentials does he have? How does a manufacturer decide to engage this or that reviewer? And I think the most interesting question about the relationship between manufacturers and reviewers: why are they not more honest with each other? The reviewer feels under an obligation to reward the relationship with glowing praise, and naturally, the manufacturer happily accepts that. But if the manufacturer explained that the review is but one part of the overall promotional mix under his control, and possibly a rather small part, the reviewer could be relieved of the implicit pressure to talk-up the product and he could then be more balanced and objective. That would be good for the consumer.It cannot be much fun being a reviewer when so much is expected from him by the public and the manufacturer. It's a job I would never undertake. Time for us all to get real?'

This is a quote from Alan Shaw on the Harbeth forums; it may or may not shed light on this thread. He is invariably concerned with the integrity (cables, hifi exhibition shows etc) of the hifi industry, the quality of reproduced music and the legacy that current products will leave in terms of enticing people to appreciate high quality music reproduction. 'My listening room is not yours' is another of his points that perhaps many buyers reading reviews do not consider: no point in buying 5* speakers that boom and bloom in your living room, for example, as I and maybe many others have done. He's not averse to the use of tone controls either to allow the listener to make his/her own choices re the sound that suits them in their real world environment. I've never heard a pair of Harbeth speakers but, judging by Alan Shaw's array of sensible opinions and hifi philosophy, I bet they sound pretty damn good...wih the right cables of course.

Finally someone has made sense. I have always said not matter how good a system sounds in a hifi shop it will not sound the same at home. Promotion will make people think a new model or new technology will bring improved performance, which is not always the case. An older model may sound better. The word subjective is used too often as a way to promote bad products.

If systems are reviewed as a whole then there is a chance of getting it right. As far as am concern reviews are almost useless. I think most people are going portable now. e.g computers & streaming with active speakers. The HIFI world is truly loosing trust from HIFI buyers. If HIFI sellers want more confidence from buyers home demo should be a must. With all pieces of HIFI available for demo.

The problem of hit & miss or mix & match is in its self a way of generating income for the seller. All the right reasons for seller & all the wrong reasons for the buyer. Even up till today I walk into some Hifi shops & I get the feeling I have more knowledge than the seller when it comes to HIFI. You very rarely come arcoss people who are real music lovers selling you good hifi as suppose to popular products reviewed over & over by popular mags with 5* reviews. The big cable debate?... I just wish I invested in a cable company 15yrs ago would have been a millionaire by now. Way over rated.

 

[chebby]

Me too, but this new version does not allow cut and paste...

Yes it does. I use it almost every day to quote from other websites or paste links etc.

Jim-W used it to paste a huge chunk of text from the Harbeth user group on post #125 earlier (unless you think he typed it all in himself).

 

[Jim-W]

I think you've captured Alan Shaw's philosophy and approach to hifi in your second paragraph. He reckons hifi publications should be sending reviewers out to the factories or assembly plants to have a look around and get a feel of the operation to fully understand what they're trying to achieve. To that end, I'm visiting Icon Audio just to see what they're all about; if I like the feel of what they do and who they are ie their values I may well buy one of their valve amps. In that way, I would be supporting manufacturers who take care in their work and who value a relationship with me as a punter. It may be rather quaint in a mass-market economy but I still value that sort of thing. By the way, Alan Shaw invariably talks sense and with a sense of humour even when he's proving that cd's provide more accurate reproduction of music than record-players which, although I didn't like his findings, I had to respect. It's tough when somebody you admire says something you don't like!

 

[Jim-W]

It was cut and paste, chebby; if I type more than a few words there are inevitably glaring typos. I just thought that particular comment of Alan Shaw's illuminated the reasoning behind not sending review samples for consideration to some publications.

There's no problem with cut and paste. The real problem with these forums is the dreadfully convoluted lay-out and the appalling aesthetics. It's just not user-friendly in the way that the old WHF was.

 

[Vladimir]

I don't trust a single word anyone in this industry says.

 

[Jota180]

Everyone should go to Harbeths website at least once in their lifetime! If you click the 'products' tab at the top then select the 'FAQ' tab down the left hand side you'll get an insight into Alan Shaw's mind regarding speakers and HIFI.

It makes a refreshing read.

He's really active in the user forums too.

 

[Vladimir]

AS is first of all a very very smart businessman. Not so relevant as a speaker designer IMO.

Why does he want a background story? Remove the BBC background story and all the Harbeth appeal goes away (the very reason he bought the company). 2 stars lost right there.

 

[Vladimir]

Double post.

 

[tin ear]

Okay, so he's not a respected loudspeaker designer. Think I just spotted two flies crawling up a wall.

 

[tin ear]

'So, what is the precise function of a review? For whom is the reviewer writing? Who rewards him? What qualifications or credentials does he have? How does a manufacturer decide to engage this or that reviewer? And I think the most interesting question about the relationship between manufacturers and reviewers: why are they not more honest with each other? The reviewer feels under an obligation to reward the relationship with glowing praise, and naturally, the manufacturer happily accepts that. But if the manufacturer explained that the review is but one part of the overall promotional mix under his control, and possibly a rather small part, the reviewer could be relieved of the implicit pressure to talk-up the product and he could then be more balanced and objective. That would be good for the consumer.It cannot be much fun being a reviewer when so much is expected from him by the public and the manufacturer. It's a job I would never undertake. Time for us all to get real?'

This is a quote from Alan Shaw on the Harbeth forums; it may or may not shed light on this thread. He is invariably concerned with the integrity (cables, hifi exhibition shows etc) of the hifi industry, the quality of reproduced music and the legacy that current products will leave in terms of enticing people to appreciate high quality music reproduction. 'My listening room is not yours' is another of his points that perhaps many buyers reading reviews do not consider: no point in buying 5* speakers that boom and bloom in your living room, for example, as I and maybe many others have done. He's not averse to the use of tone controls either to allow the listener to make his/her own choices re the sound that suits them in their real world environment. I've never heard a pair of Harbeth speakers but, judging by Alan Shaw's array of sensible opinions and hifi philosophy, I bet they sound pretty damn good...wih the right cables of course.

Alan Shaw is a respected designer and manufacturer of fine loudspeakers. He brings a formidable technical knowledge and logic to the discussion of Harbeths in particular and hi fi in general, that take place at the Harbeth User Group forum which he established. The problem that I have with Alan and his forum is that he is a control freak. Every post is moderated before it is posted, which I find rather odd. The other problem I have with Alan is that he assumes the position of being right and posts accordingly. Consequently, he comes off as didactic and pompous, which is unfortunate as I'm sure he means well.

 

[Vladimir]

Okay, so he's not a respected loudspeaker designer. Think I just spotted two flies crawling up a wall.

He is a respected loudspeaker designer, but not reputed as superstar in the range of Andrew Jones, Laurence Dickie, Greg Timbers, Edgar Villchur, Henry Kloss etc.

 

[tin ear]

I don't think that I described him as anything more than a respected designer and manufacturer of fine loudspeakers.

 

[Rimse]

I suspect other online publication online is mostly promotions by shops which selling these speakers.Before buying harbeth,I owned monitor audio rs6,while it really were good speakers with budget amps ,it was mistached high end amps.So I started read reviews and forums to find match.And found out people from Japan liked to pair Harbeths with amps made in Japan.I bought them blindly directly from Harbeth company.I did not like them at first listening session,just because they were completly new,not broke in ,the more I played the more started to like them.And now I like them more than more expensive speakers.

 

[Jim-W]

I think Harbeth speakers are the only hifi component that I would buy 'blindly.' My reasoning being that I trust Alan Shaw to produce a quality pair of speakers based on his hifi philosophy as expounded in various interviews and the Harbeth forums. I may well read a review which may be either positive or negative, but I doubt whether it would influence my eventual choice. He may well be didactic and a good businessman, as others have suggested, but he understands the notion of integrity within this industry and this is something that I value. Maybe I'm mistaken and his speakers are rubbish but I very much doubt it. What I'm trying to point out is that Alan Shaw's integrity and knowledge command enough respect to enable him to sell his products without the need for fawning reviews; I also admire him for the way in which he debunks the physics-defying hifi myths. In fact, I think I've just convinced myself to go and listen to some Harbeth speakers.

 

[Native_bon]

I think Harbeth speakers are the only hifi component that I would buy 'blindly.' My reasoning being that I trust Alan Shaw to produce a quality pair of speakers based on his hifi philosophy as expounded in various interviews and the Harbeth forums. I may well read a review which may be either positive or negative, but I doubt whether it would influence my eventual choice. He may well be didactic and a good businessman, as others have suggested, but he understands the notion of integrity within this industry and this is something that I value. Maybe I'm mistaken and his speakers are rubbish but I very much doubt it. What I'm trying to point out is that Alan Shaw's integrity and knowledge command enough respect to enable him to sell his products without the need for fawning reviews; I also admire him for the way in which he debunks the physics-defying hifi myths. In fact, I think I've just convinced myself to go and listen to some Harbeth speakers.

Am thinking alone the lines of get a pair my self. If you read my post am very critical about hifi & marketing of popular & rubbish hifi. You can smell bull when you see it, but this is far from it.

 

[tin ear]

I think you've captured Alan Shaw's philosophy and approach to hifi in your second paragraph. He reckons hifi publications should be sending reviewers out to the factories or assembly plants to have a look around and get a feel of the operation to fully understand what they're trying to achieve. To that end, I'm visiting Icon Audio just to see what they're all about; if I like the feel of what they do and who they are ie their values I may well buy one of their valve amps. In that way, I would be supporting manufacturers who take care in their work and who value a relationship with me as a punter. It may be rather quaint in a mass-market economy but I still value that sort of thing. By the way, Alan Shaw invariably talks sense and with a sense of humour even when he's proving that cd's provide more accurate reproduction of music than record-players which, although I didn't like his findings, I had to respect. It's tough when somebody you admire says something you don't like!

Reviewing how a product performs is different from providing a back story about the company that made it. They are not mutually exclusive but there is no need to combine the two for the purpose of a product review. You don't need to know how a loudspeaker is made in order to describe how it sounds. It seems that Alan Shaw is disdainful of hi fi reviewers on the one hand, yet he wants them to come and visit his factory on the other.

Having said that, most of the hi fi reviews I read (with the exception of WHF?) do provide a profile of the designer/manufacturer as well as information about the construction and specifications of the audio component.

 

[tin ear]

'So, what is the precise function of a review? For whom is the reviewer writing? Who rewards him? What qualifications or credentials does he have? How does a manufacturer decide to engage this or that reviewer? And I think the most interesting question about the relationship between manufacturers and reviewers: why are they not more honest with each other? The reviewer feels under an obligation to reward the relationship with glowing praise, and naturally, the manufacturer happily accepts that. But if the manufacturer explained that the review is but one part of the overall promotional mix under his control, and possibly a rather small part, the reviewer could be relieved of the implicit pressure to talk-up the product and he could then be more balanced and objective. That would be good for the consumer.It cannot be much fun being a reviewer when so much is expected from him by the public and the manufacturer. It's a job I would never undertake. Time for us all to get real?'

This is a quote from Alan Shaw on the Harbeth forums; it may or may not shed light on this thread. He is invariably concerned with the integrity (cables, hifi exhibition shows etc) of the hifi industry, the quality of reproduced music and the legacy that current products will leave in terms of enticing people to appreciate high quality music reproduction. 'My listening room is not yours' is another of his points that perhaps many buyers reading reviews do not consider: no point in buying 5* speakers that boom and bloom in your living room, for example, as I and maybe many others have done. He's not averse to the use of tone controls either to allow the listener to make his/her own choices re the sound that suits them in their real world environment. I've never heard a pair of Harbeth speakers but, judging by Alan Shaw's array of sensible opinions and hifi philosophy, I bet they sound pretty damn good...wih the right cables of course.

Finally someone has made sense. I have always said not matter how good a system sounds in a hifi shop it will not sound the same at home. Promotion will make people think a new model or new technology will bring improved performance, which is not always the case. An older model may sound better. The word subjective is used too often as a way to promote bad products.

If systems are reviewed as a whole then there is a chance of getting it right. As far as am concern reviews are almost useless. I think most people are going portable now. e.g computers & streaming with active speakers. The HIFI world is truly loosing trust from HIFI buyers. If HIFI sellers want more confidence from buyers home demo should be a must. With all pieces of HIFI available for demo.

The problem of hit & miss or mix & match is in its self a way of generating income for the seller. All the right reasons for seller & all the wrong reasons for the buyer. Even up till today I walk into some Hifi shops & I get the feeling I have more knowledge than the seller when it comes to HIFI. You very rarely come arcoss people who are real music lovers selling you good hifi as suppose to popular products reviewed over & over by popular mags with 5* reviews. The big cable debate?... I just wish I invested in a cable company 15yrs ago would have been a millionaire by now. Way over rated.

It's uncanny how someone else's point of view makes sense when it mirrors your own.

Obviously a sound system that you audition in a hi fi store will not sound exactly the same as when it is set up in your home. However, an in-store audition will give you an indication of what you will hear if the same system is set up in your home. It gives you some idea of the system's sonic character, which has to be better than not auditioning it at all prior to purchase.

Hi fi reviews are not useless. In fact, I've found some of them very useful but not all, which is hardly surprising given the subjective nature of our listening experiences and personal preferences.

 

[tin ear]

I think Harbeth speakers are the only hifi component that I would buy 'blindly.' My reasoning being that I trust Alan Shaw to produce a quality pair of speakers based on his hifi philosophy as expounded in various interviews and the Harbeth forums. I may well read a review which may be either positive or negative, but I doubt whether it would influence my eventual choice. He may well be didactic and a good businessman, as others have suggested, but he understands the notion of integrity within this industry and this is something that I value. Maybe I'm mistaken and his speakers are rubbish but I very much doubt it. What I'm trying to point out is that Alan Shaw's integrity and knowledge command enough respect to enable him to sell his products without the need for fawning reviews; I also admire him for the way in which he debunks the physics-defying hifi myths. In fact, I think I've just convinced myself to go and listen to some Harbeth speakers.

His speakers are obviously not "rubbish" and receive glowing rather than "fawning" reviews. The reviewers do point out their limitations as well as praise them. I also appreciate Alan Shaw's hi fi myth busting. His common sense approach founded on his audio engineering knowledge and experience, is welcome in hi fi discussions where you find a lot of hair brained ideas and misinformation flying around.

Please report back If you do end up listening to a pair.

 

[Vladimir]

Alan A. Shaw is the Gordon Ramsey of hi-fi audio. His Hi-Fi Nightmares forum threads are epic fun. *good*