Going active ... ?

[davedotco]

I think hoopsontoast has hit the nail on the head, there's no guarantee that active speakers will automatically sound better than passive, in fact the majority may not sound better at all. It is also true that the proper HiFi actives are expensive - ATC, Linn, PMC etc - and are heavily under represented on this forum

Unfortunately AVI have a disproportionately high representation, which skews any active speaker thread. This isn't helped by the owner of their home forum constantly espousing the notion that all actives are automatically better than passives. While that man is known for questionable tactics, some AVI forum members seem to adopt similar tactics whether knowingly or not. In the time before all records of me were wiped from the AVI forum, there were discussions in the private area about the best way to push AVI on Whathifi, which stuck in my throat, that and some rude comments about prominent contributors here.

I have no doubt AVI make decent lifestyle speakers, but they have the same limitations any small box has. Realistically, to achieve a high level of performance you are looking at the ATC or PMC type speaker, and the price you pay is high.

There is good news, though. My mates in Stuttgart sent me some stuff about some new German actives which are from an established company, are inexpensive, look good, are entirely made in Germany and, apparently, sound stunning. I'll report back when I get some more info.

the reverse is true on other forums.

ESI speakers? Only briefly heard them (5" and 8" models) but they look VERY good value, not keen on the gloss black :shame:

http://www.puritenorth.co.uk/ESi.htm

Nice looking speakers, prices look attractive until you realise that you can ship them out of Thomann in Germanny for just £250 or £330 pair, including shipping....... :type:

Still, if you want to audition and have local dealer support then it may be ok paying the premium.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Afriad thats what you pay for if you want propper UK support and demo facilities.

 

[John Duncan]

In the time before all records of me were wiped from the AVI forum, there were discussions in the private area about the best way to push AVI on Whathifi, which stuck in my throat, that and some rude comments about prominent contributors here.

No!

 

[davedotco]

Afriad thats what you pay for if you want propper UK support and demo facilities.

Agreed and I said as much. The markup is not unreasonable for a German brand, even one made in China.

However it does compare poorly with other German brands such as Adam or Presonus whose UK pricing is much closer to their pricing in their home market. However Adam and Presonus are, mostly, sold through music shop/pro-retailer style dealers, this appears to make a difference.

 

[spiny norman]

In the time before all records of me were wiped from the AVI forum, there were discussions in the private area about the best way to push AVI on Whathifi

 

[John Duncan]

Though that's not set in stone, obviously...

 

[spiny norman]

Though that's not set in stone, obviously...

Well, if something doesn't suit the latest teachings, you can always drop it

 

[skippy]

In the time before all records of me were wiped from the AVI forum, there were discussions in the private area about the best way to push AVI on Whathifi

Is that an iPad he's holding?

 

[lindsayt]

davdotco, have you ever compared the EV Sentry III's to any other speakers? Same room, same track, same volume? If so what did you compare them against, and exactly what was it about the other speaker that you prefered?

 

[lindsayt]

Maybe a Landrover Defender if you wanted to 'off-road', a Toyota Yaris for nipping to the shops for a pint of milk every once in a while, an MX5 or similar for a bit of top down, sunshine action, Galaxy/Sharan/Alhambra for carting the family around and doing big shopping trips, loads more situations and choices available.

I wouldn't buy a Morris Ital regardless of its condition and it's pretty much how I view the EV Sentrys. Some people did buy the Itals though, much to their own disappointment.

The Defender, Yaris, MX5, Sharalaxy are all fine choices. They would all have to be 2nd hand to meet the £6k budget.

Have you ever heard the EV Sentrys? Have you ever compared them to any other speakers, same room, same tracks, same volume? If you haven't then comparing them to Morris Itals when it comes to value for money - or sound quality - which is what I am debating here is something on which you have no actual experience.Your view of the EV Sentrys is therefore based entirely on your imagination and not on reality in any way.

For a £6k car budget you could also add the following choices:

2007 Volvo V70 D5, 2003 Audi RS6, 2000 BMW M5, 2004 Mercedes S class 320 CDi, 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VIII, 2006 Lexus GS 300, 2009 VW Passat Bluemotion Estate

One thing to bear in mind is that cars require fuel to run at £1.40 per litre. Hi-fi requires a relatively small amount of electricity to run, unless you've got some mega class A solid state amp or a mega 16 valve push pull valve amp. Cars also require MOT's, insurance, servicing, repairs, and they rust over time, with the more that you use them the more servicing and repairs that they require. Hi-fi on the other hand does not rust, does not require MOT's and insurance, can be used all the time without requiring lots of additional servicing (apart from valves and cartirdges) and for speakers and solid state electronics might need servicing or repairs every 20 years, or might never need servicing at all. And any hi-fi servicing costs for a digital source, solid state amplification hi-fi system would be relatively low compared to car servicing bills.

So, a better car to hi-fi analogy would be if we had a £6k budget and the unusual situation where the company we worked for provided us with a free fuel card and would pay servicing, insurance, MOT, road tax costs. What car would be best in such a situation?

Overdose, why were all of your £6k car recommendations 2nd hand and none of them new? Why do you have a different approach to buying hi-fi to buying cars? Why do you recommend new for hi-fi and 2nd hand for cars?

 

[fr0g]

Lindsay, the problem with the Sentry's regardless of how they sound, is that to own them you would have to have either no vision, or no taste.

They are truly hideous and huge and I am certain that 99.99% of men with wives or girlfriends couldn't even imagine having them without getting a rap across the head.

When people talk about the VFM factor of ADMs they assume that the person buying is a normal human being, who has responsibities and at least a modicum of style, and probably a limited area in which to place said speakers.

Don't get me wrong, I would love some huge speakers (actually I'd be happy with 800D huge), but for the VAST majority, suggestions like this are about as useful as suggesting a WWII tank in the £6000 car category (however easy that might make parking).

Can you possibly suggest a solution, for the £600 budget, of standmount speakers, amp and DAC, that will (within the Hz range expected) give as good a performance?

 

[lindsayt]

Steve, what is it about the EV Sentry III bass driver that looks low quality to you?

The magnet is small for a driver of that size and judging from the rubber surround it has very little travel.

To be fair the basket on it looks pretty good quality though.

The EV Sentry III bass driver has enough linear travel to play at 116 dbs at 40 hz without getting near hitting the limits of the cone suspension. They do not have rubber surrounds. They have foam surrounds. The magnet is not small for a 15" driver. You'd need to put them next to other 15" drivers to see that. Apart from that, everything in your post was correct.

BTW, did you know that the Electro Voice EVM-15B driver sold for 73,800 yen in 1970, which was about £85 in those days. Adjusted for inflation via the retail price index that's the equivalent of about £1150 in todays money. That's for one of them. A stereo pair would be the modern equivalent of £2300.

And did you also know that other speaker manufacturers used EV drivers in their speakers?

 

[lindsayt]

Lindsay, the problem with the Sentry's regardless of how they sound, is that to own them you would have to have either no vision, or no taste.

They are truly hideous and huge and I am certain that 99.99% of men with wives or girlfriends couldn't even imagine having them without getting a rap across the head.

When people talk about the VFM factor of ADMs they assume that the person buying is a normal human being, who has responsibities and at least a modicum of style, and probably a limited area in which to place said speakers.

Don't get me wrong, I would love some huge speakers (actually I'd be happy with 800D huge), but for the VAST majority, suggestions like this are about as useful as suggesting a WWII tank in the £6000 car category (however easy that might make parking).

Can you possibly suggest a solution, for the £600 budget, of standmount speakers, amp and DAC, that will (within the Hz range expected) give as good a performance?

Frog I don't accept £600 as the budget. Not when when posters were proclaiming the AVI ADM 9's as amazing value for £1300 new - which was what sparked off my participation in this thread.

I have already suggest speakers for someone for whom looks and size is important in this thread. Are you not paying attention to what I've been saying? Reread the 9th post on page 3 of this thread.

And again, how many times do I have to repeat this, before it sinks in: What has size and looks got to do with value for money?

You think the EV Sentry look hideous. That's your subjective opinion. I think they look better than the AVI ADM 9's. The ADM 9's look cheap and shoddy to me. The EV Sentrys don't. That's my subjective opinion. Which of us is right? We both are. We both hold entirely valid subjective opinions.

Value for money when it comes to material and manufacturing costs vs purchase price is far less subjective than looks and far more objective. The EV Sentry III's combined with a decent amp and decent DAC has far more engineering content to it, far greater manufacturing costs than new AVI ADM 9's. This is to the extent where today an EV based system can be bought for less than the manufacturing costs of that system in real terms. That makes the AVI's relatively bad value for money in terms of price vs manufacturing costs.

And then there's the value for money in terms of sound quality per pound spent. The differences between an EV based system and AVI system are so great that they are not subjective. The EV's are therefore better value for money in this department because they do sound better than the AVI's.

So where does that leave us? You think the AVI's offer good value for money when compared to the EV's because of the size and looks for the price. That's fine. I think the AVI's do not offer good value for money because of the manufacturing costs and sound quality for the money. Surely that's fine too. Can you not accept that, by my definition, and from my point of view, that the AVI's are not good value for money? That what I said was a perfectly valid, and logical and fair opinion and that there is no need for you to argue with me about it?

 

[davedotco]

davdotco, have you ever compared the EV Sentry III's to any other speakers? Same room, same track, same volume? If so what did you compare them against, and exactly what was it about the other speaker that you prefered?

Indeed. We had several pairs that were used in testing and evaluating against our (my employers) own products, along with examples from Altec, Klipsch and a fair number of others.

They were evaluated both in terms of complete systems and as components, EV components were ok but nothing special, their best product were probably the T350 driver and horn and especially the T35 high frequency unit which was the best in it's day. My boss at that time consulted on the famous 'Wall of Sound' pa system built for the Grateful Dead and the T35 was used extensively in this project.

From memory, and it is a very long time ago, the bass driver in the Sentry was a fairly lightweight affair but the beauty and the difficulty of speakers of this type and vintage is that drive units were routinely changed, modified and respecced in what was, at that time, a very volatile and fast moving industry. The best speakers of this type that I can recall were the Altec A series, JBL Aquarius and the JBL L series based on the 4320 and later 4230 series studio monitors.

As I am sure you know, most of the best speaker systems of this period have ended up in the far east and change hands at quite phenomenal sums, the Sentry was never in that class.

As a matter of interest, the best 15 inch bass driver I know of was the JBL 2215 from the early 70's, combined with the equally superb 2420 compression driver they formed the basis of the 4320 series of recording monitors that 'owned' the 1970s.

 

[BigH]

Have to agree with Fr0g.

AVI ADM 9RS are £1,250 now.

They do sell on auction sites for around £600 for 4 to 5 year old ones.

Where are your new systems that are better that make AVI poor value?

So they are poor value because of some speakers that look like 1950s wardrodes.

 

[fr0g]

Lindsay, the problem with the Sentry's regardless of how they sound, is that to own them you would have to have either no vision, or no taste.

They are truly hideous and huge and I am certain that 99.99% of men with wives or girlfriends couldn't even imagine having them without getting a rap across the head.

When people talk about the VFM factor of ADMs they assume that the person buying is a normal human being, who has responsibities and at least a modicum of style, and probably a limited area in which to place said speakers.

Don't get me wrong, I would love some huge speakers (actually I'd be happy with 800D huge), but for the VAST majority, suggestions like this are about as useful as suggesting a WWII tank in the £6000 car category (however easy that might make parking).

Can you possibly suggest a solution, for the £600 budget, of standmount speakers, amp and DAC, that will (within the Hz range expected) give as good a performance?

Frog I don't accept £600 as the budget. Not when when posters were proclaiming the AVI ADM 9's as amazing value for £1300 new - which was what sparked off my participation in this thread.

I have already suggest speakers for someone for whom looks and size is important in this thread. Are you not paying attention to what I've been saying? Reread the 9th post on page 3 of this thread.

And again, how many times do I have to repeat this, before it sinks in: What has size and looks got to do with value for money?

You think the EV Sentry look hideous. That's your subjective opinion. I think they look better than the AVI ADM 9's. The ADM 9's look cheap and shoddy to me. The EV Sentrys don't. That's my subjective opinion. Which of us is right? We both are. We both hold entirely valid subjective opinions.

Value for money when it comes to material and manufacturing costs vs purchase price is far less subjective than looks and far more objective. The EV Sentry III's combined with a decent amp and decent DAC has far more engineering content to it, far greater manufacturing costs than new AVI ADM 9's. This is to the extent where today an EV based system can be bought for less than the manufacturing costs of that system in real terms. That makes the AVI's relatively bad value for money in terms of price vs manufacturing costs.

And then there's the value for money in terms of sound quality per pound spent. The differences between an EV based system and AVI system are so great that they are not subjective. The EV's are therefore better value for money in this department because they do sound better than the AVI's.

So where does that leave us? You think the AVI's offer good value for money when compared to the EV's because of the size and looks for the price. That's fine. I think the AVI's do not offer good value for money because of the manufacturing costs and sound quality for the money. Surely that's fine too. Can you not accept that, by my definition, and from my point of view, that the AVI's are not good value for money? That what I said was a perfectly valid, and logical and fair opinion and that there is no need for you to argue with me about it?

There is every need to argue, as the ADMs are available second hand, for around £600.

I agree, your subjective opinion is valid and if you like those things then all the power to you for your strong stomach, but I would maintain that for 99 plus percent of the population, the speakers you have suggested so far, are hideous eye-sores that would not get a look in even if they sounded like angels dancing on a rainbow fountain of marzipan ice-cream covered cola-floats...So, I'm simply asking you again, a second hand shoot-off, for "normal" speakers that the average married person needs to fit into their life, kids, wife/husband/house...what would you suggest?

 

[John Duncan]

Oh for god's sake. THEY ARE GREAT VALUE.

 

[Overdose]

Maybe a Landrover Defender if you wanted to 'off-road', a Toyota Yaris for nipping to the shops for a pint of milk every once in a while, an MX5 or similar for a bit of top down, sunshine action, Galaxy/Sharan/Alhambra for carting the family around and doing big shopping trips, loads more situations and choices available.

I wouldn't buy a Morris Ital regardless of its condition and it's pretty much how I view the EV Sentrys. Some people did buy the Itals though, much to their own disappointment.

The Defender, Yaris, MX5, Sharalaxy are all fine choices. They would all have to be 2nd hand to meet the £6k budget.

Have you ever heard the EV Sentrys? Have you ever compared them to any other speakers, same room, same tracks, same volume? If you haven't then comparing them to Morris Itals when it comes to value for money - or sound quality - which is what I am debating here is something on which you have no actual experience.Your view of the EV Sentrys is therefore based entirely on your imagination and not on reality in any way.

For a £6k car budget you could also add the following choices:

2007 Volvo V70 D5, 2003 Audi RS6, 2000 BMW M5, 2004 Mercedes S class 320 CDi, 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VIII, 2006 Lexus GS 300, 2009 VW Passat Bluemotion Estate

One thing to bear in mind is that cars require fuel to run at £1.40 per litre. Hi-fi requires a relatively small amount of electricity to run, unless you've got some mega class A solid state amp or a mega 16 valve push pull valve amp. Cars also require MOT's, insurance, servicing, repairs, and they rust over time, with the more that you use them the more servicing and repairs that they require. Hi-fi on the other hand does not rust, does not require MOT's and insurance, can be used all the time without requiring lots of additional servicing (apart from valves and cartirdges) and for speakers and solid state electronics might need servicing or repairs every 20 years, or might never need servicing at all. And any hi-fi servicing costs for a digital source, solid state amplification hi-fi system would be relatively low compared to car servicing bills.

So, a better car to hi-fi analogy would be if we had a £6k budget and the unusual situation where the company we worked for provided us with a free fuel card and would pay servicing, insurance, MOT, road tax costs. What car would be best in such a situation?

Overdose, why were all of your £6k car recommendations 2nd hand and none of them new? Why do you have a different approach to buying hi-fi to buying cars? Why do you recommend new for hi-fi and 2nd hand for cars?

I really think you need to get out more.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Oh for god's sake. THEY ARE GREAT VALUE.

Only if you want lifestyle. If you want HiFi, they're a bit lacking.

I don't agree with Lindsayt, but size does count, as it does in life, in the end.

 

[alchemist 1]

In the time before all records of me were wiped from the AVI forum, there were discussions in the private area about the best way to push AVI on Whathifi

Is that an iPad he's holding?

No....It's a active speaker specification..........:shifty:

 

[Alec]

Oh for god's sake. THEY ARE GREAT VALUE.

Only if you want lifestyle. If you want HiFi, they're a bit lacking.

I don't agree with Lindsayt, but size does count, as it does in life, in the end.

No, still good value anyway.

 

[steve_1979]

The EV Sentry III bass driver has enough linear travel to play at 116 dbs at 40 hz without getting near hitting the limits of the cone suspension. They do not have rubber surrounds. They have foam surrounds. The magnet is not small for a 15" driver. You'd need to put them next to other 15" drivers to see that. Apart from that, everything in your post was correct.

This is what an AVI bass driver looks like.

This is an EV Sentry III bass driver looks like.

The pictures speak for themselves really.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Agreed. Both discount specials!

 

[hoopsontoast]

The EV Sentry III bass driver has enough linear travel to play at 116 dbs at 40 hz without getting near hitting the limits of the cone suspension. They do not have rubber surrounds. They have foam surrounds. The magnet is not small for a 15" driver. You'd need to put them next to other 15" drivers to see that. Apart from that, everything in your post was correct.

This is what an AVI bass driver looks like.

This is an EV Sentry III bass driver looks like.

The pictures speak for themselves really.

Steve, you seem to be linking the AVI sub bass driver, rather than the one from the ADM9s....... A subwoofer driver that only has to to up to 100Hz really has very different design parameters compared to even a 15"+ Mid Bass, such as the one in the EV's.

And as previously mentioned, there is far more to a drivers performance other than just having a big magnet and xmax, unless you are a car audio enthusiast....

 

[hoopsontoast]

As a comparison:

AVI ADM9 6"

Fostex FF225K (8") and Veravox 5S (5")

ATC 5"

What conclusion would YOU take from those three photos?