Going active ... ?

[steve_1979]

I predict 100+ posts in this thread by Sunday evening...

Well, we tried.

We've still got another hour and a half and just 24 posts to go. The fat lady hasn't sung yet.

 

[steve_1979]

Steve, what is it about the EV Sentry III bass driver that looks low quality to you?

The magnet is small for a driver of that size and judging from the rubber surround it has very little travel.

To be fair the basket on it looks pretty good quality though.

 

[steve_1979]

The ADM9 driver for comparison.

A large magnet, plenty of linear travel, good quality spider and basket. This doesn't look cheap to me.

 

[steve_1979]

I predict 100+ posts in this thread by Sunday evening...

Ah well. I lose.

 

[davedotco]

This thread is full of so much garbage it is difficult to know where to start.

Electrovoice, like many of the big US speakers manufacturers (Altec, Western Electric, RCA, JBL etc) grew there business through one product and one product only, Cinema loudspeaker systems.

The requirements of such systems was sensitivity and reliability, everything else came a distant second. Bandwidth requirements were no more than 200hz to 5khz, given the limits of film 'striping' of the era.

Amplifier power was expensive and speaker size irrelevant (they were behind the screens), even coverage throughout the theatre was important too but that is a different story. This was the only business in town until the 50s, by which time the 'high output, low bandwith speaker system pretty much ruled the world.

With the advent of electrical recording and playback, these speakers were, in the main, what was available and smaller systems, such as the Altec 'Voice of the Theatre' systems started to find there way into peoples homes. This is pretty much the start of hifi, minature theatre systems designed for the home, Lowther, Decca etc in the UK , the aformentioned brands in the US.

The ElectroVoice sentry was always a 'bodge', a mediocre theatre system reduced in size to make a poor sound reinforcement setup eventually reborn as a pretty awful hi-fi system. Really not a good example at all, Altec, JBL and others all had far superior product available as did Klipsch, probably the only US speaker company making speakers of this type not to have a 'theatre' background.

ElectroVoice components were always, at best, second rate, JBL Western Electric, Altec etc all produced better product, the 1820 series compression drivers shown above were built primarily for horn loaded voice announcement systems, 'Tannoys' by another name. The better versions, used in cinemas originally, were easily outperformed by JBL 2400 series, Altec 800 series and, in the UK, the Vitavox S2.

If you are going to plug product of this type and vintage, at least plug good product, the EV Sentry really was not.

 

[the record spot]

I wonder what those Indonesian drivers cost, and whether they're the same as the cheap Yamahas also manufactured in the same place.

Sinar Baja, well known purveyors of cheap tat to the audio industry since 1981....when they're not busy being crap, they turn out products for a variety of companies including Yamaha, Kenwood, Alpine, etc. Their values and missions statement and aims are all listed on their website below.

http://www.sinarbajaelectric.com/new/

I imagine, in terms of cost, that they will produce a range of components to satisfy budget requirements at various pricepoints.

 

[fr0g]

There is a distinct lack of logic here. Your original point was that they were poor value from new compared to what you can buy secondhand. So? That's the case for most things. It's irrelevant as you need to compare them at their second hand price to rate VFM.

Not everyone wants used things...Me included. I have never bought anything other than a house and a car second hand. I prefer new, warranty and all.

So, at the price from new, compared to what you can buy from new, they are exceptional value for money.

What other stand mount system would compare, and how much would it cost, from new. Or if you prefer, what could I get second hand that would better my ADM9T, for a cost of around £600 which is roughly what I'd expect if I sold them? I'd need speakers, a nice powerful amp and a DAC.

For £600?

Just one example out of many possible combinations:

Muse Audio DAC into Creek CAS4040 into EV Sentry III's.

I have no idea of the quality or lack of , of those speakers, but you'll have to do better. Perhaps I should have included the fact that divorce was not an option.

 

[chebby]

Perhaps I should have included the fact that divorce was not an option.

Be thankful he didn't recommend these...

(Lindsayt's Bozak B-4000s dwarfing some compact stand-mount speakers.)

However, it is worth noting that Lindsayt has the good fortune to be able to spread all this kit out in his Victorian mansion ...

Living in a Victorian mansion helps in blending-in large vintage hi-fi kit and giving the wife a choice of rooms in which to entertain visitors.

... so always take his advice with this in mind.

Basically, get a mansion.

 

[hoopsontoast]

I dont understand why people assume 'going active' means plumping for little lifestyle speakers like the AVIs or 'Pro' style monitors.

Active speakers are a type of speaker, its an approach to the reproduction of music.

I am in the process of 'Going Active' but thats not just because I want to reduce clutter or downsize from expensive passive equipment, its a DIY project and Active has several distinct advantages for me:

-Flexibility: Allows the use of a DSP based crossover with almost infinite adjustment to crossover position, slopes etc

-Cost: When starting from scratch allows plenty of experimentation at the early stage of a project from one small outlay

-Crossover : Allows low crossover points and integration with subwoofers

-Amplifiers:Allows the use of multiple amplifiers, not for output but actual tailoring for the drive units e.g SET for Mid-Treble and SS for bass.

People should not get hung up on the crossover type, its not really ANY indication of what a speaker will sound like. The same way that personally (having briefly met Lindsay at Scalford last year) I dont think that ALL older speakers would sound better than the ADMs, a lot most likely will IME with the Initial ADM9 that was supposed to be the speaker to end all upgrades, until they made a new-improved model.

I have never owned an 'Active' speaker but heard plenty, varying from small 2-way bookshelf to large DIY based floorstanders and Full-Horn loaded monsters. They did not sound automatically better than the 'passive' equivelent., again IME

Dont get me started on the 'my magnets bigger than yours' debate, unless you are having a PA speaker, its not really any indication of driver performace in a domestic setting.

So these are my new mid-bass drivers, made by highly acclaimed UK manufacturer Volt:

There is not much you can tell from a photograph of how they will sound other than they have a double-roll surround so probably a higher Qms with a nice big magnet (vented too) and cast frame. Without specifications and response/distortion plots, or actually listening to them can you really make any real judgement of what they might be like.

For example, a Cast frame is nothing but something to see where your investment has gone, maybe in a PA style setup means you have a sturdy frame that would take some battering getting knocked about or if you have a massive magnet on the end of it, but other than that it has no real other use, possible heat dissapation but again, only really an issue with PA speakers.

The 'Massive Magnet' means nothing too, unless you know things like the suspension compliance, cone weight etc, there is no point having a massive magnet with a loose suspension and heavy cone, usually done to get 'better bass' from a small cabinet.

 

[BigH]

I don't think they're good value for money at £1300. The amps are cheap. The DAC's cheap. The crossovers are cheap. The cabinets are cheap. The drivers are cheap and you only get 2 small ones per channel. And they don't sound good compared to other DAC / amps / speaker combinations you can buy for less money. And they sound the same as the same speakers bought 2nd hand for £600.

Like what?

Anything old...... :read:

No not anything old. Not when it comes to the speakers, which are the most important item with digitial only as a source. Only certain cherry picked speakers. Properly engineered ones. There are plenty of old speakers that were just as cheaply made as the AVI ADM 9's - and this does tend to show in the sonic performance.

So how come they are poor value then, if you can hardly find any new ones that are better and what are these properly engineered speakers?

 

[JMacMan]

I see that the OP is interested in going active.

What strikes me as rather odd, is the only consideration for an active solution appears to be AVI active speakers.

I'ts not as if other manufacturers dont make excellent active speakers is it?

Is there a particular reason for the AVI 'vs the world re the way the thread seems to have developed?

Or have I missed something...

JB

 

[fr0g]

I see that the OP is interested in going active.

What strikes me as rather odd, is the only consideration for an active solution appears to be AVI active speakers.

I'ts not as if other manufacturers dont make excellent active speakers is it?

Is there a particular reason for the AVI 'vs the world re the way the thread seems to have developed?

Or have I missed something...

JB

I would imagine it is down to price, and not wanting to go for pro style monitors or in fact dusty old wardrobes with 18" woofers.

There isn't a huge amount to choose from really,

 

[hoopsontoast]

I see that the OP is interested in going active.

What strikes me as rather odd, is the only consideration for an active solution appears to be AVI active speakers.

I'ts not as if other manufacturers dont make excellent active speakers is it?

Is there a particular reason for the AVI 'vs the world re the way the thread seems to have developed?

Or have I missed something...

JB

I would imagine it is down to price, and not wanting to go for pro style monitors or in fact dusty old wardrobes with 18" woofers.

There isn't a huge amount to choose from really,

Or the fact that there are not many you can hear in a domestic hifi shop against other competing models, oh wait....

Basically, the AVI boys believe they have hit nirvana (until the better model is announced) and decide its the best option for everyone, so they tell everyone. :type:

They may well be good for some people, but one size does not fit all :rofl:

 

[Alec]

I see that the OP is interested in going active.

What strikes me as rather odd, is the only consideration for an active solution appears to be AVI active speakers.

I'ts not as if other manufacturers dont make excellent active speakers is it?

Is there a particular reason for the AVI 'vs the world re the way the thread seems to have developed?

Or have I missed something...

JB

I would imagine it is down to price, and not wanting to go for pro style monitors or in fact dusty old wardrobes with 18" woofers.

There isn't a huge amount to choose from really,

Or the fact that there are not many you can hear in a domestic hifi shop against other competing models, oh wait....

Basically, the AVI boys believe they have hit nirvana (until the better model is announced) and decide its the best option for everyone, so they tell everyone.

They may well be good for some people, but one size does not fit all :rofl:

Sigh. I'm going to regret this.

fr0g is right. Show me an active speaker which is in a nice wood-effect finish and has a DAC in (so, a whole system, minus source*, in one box) that is no more expensive than the AVIs (though I don't actually need that last criteria, as, regardless of price, I'm 99.0% sure you can't do it.

* I'm using "source" here to mean "the thing what contains the music"; I know many refer to the DAC as the source.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Oh yes, there is no doubt the AMDs are good value.

'Sounding good' is another matter.

EVERY speaker is a compromise.

Car analogies are not the best but you could get a new Ford Fiesta, it would do everything you could really need from a car, economical, safe, nice to drive, comfortable, spacious and perfectly good in every way, it even looks nice.

When was the last time someone said its the best car they ever had, or the one 'they really want'.

The ADMs are much like this, they do all you need from a speaker, has all the connections, they even look alright but in terms of the pinicle of hifi, they are far from it. They do a job and they do that job in a good way.

But thats it. They are a good compromise if you are after a small speaker that you can plug everything into.

 

[fr0g]

Oh yes, there is no doubt the AMDs are good value.

'Sounding good' is another matter.

EVERY speaker is a compromise.

Car analogies are not the best but you could get a new Ford Fiesta, it would do everything you could really need from a car, economical, safe, nice to drive, comfortable, spacious and perfectly good in every way, it even looks nice.

When was the last time someone said its the best car they ever had, or the one 'they really want'.

The ADMs are much like this, they do all you need from a speaker, has all the connections, they even look alright but in terms of the pinicle of hifi, they are far from it. They do a job and they do that job in a good way.

But thats it. They are a good compromise if you are after a small speaker that you can plug everything into.

Touch unfair there.

Yes, all speakers are a compromise. And in this case, the compromise is the size. But most people want small speakers.

And for small speakers they sound excellent. Add a sub and they become larger speakers essentially.

They aren't as big a compromise as a turntable for instance, which by all modern standards is a pointless retreat into distortion if what you are after is sound quality, or High fidelity. But I can see that they are cool to play with and very hands on, and I have often thought of getting another for the fun factor...but I'd never pretend it was in any way superior.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Oh yes, there is no doubt the AMDs are good value.

'Sounding good' is another matter.

EVERY speaker is a compromise.

Car analogies are not the best but you could get a new Ford Fiesta, it would do everything you could really need from a car, economical, safe, nice to drive, comfortable, spacious and perfectly good in every way, it even looks nice.

When was the last time someone said its the best car they ever had, or the one 'they really want'.

The ADMs are much like this, they do all you need from a speaker, has all the connections, they even look alright but in terms of the pinicle of hifi, they are far from it. They do a job and they do that job in a good way.

But thats it. They are a good compromise if you are after a small speaker that you can plug everything into.

Touch unfair there.

Yes, all speakers are a compromise. And in this case, the compromise is the size. But most people want small speakers.

And for small speakers they sound excellent. Add a sub and they become larger speakers essentially.

They aren't as big a compromise as a turntable for instance, which by all modern standards is a pointless retreat into distortion if what you are after is sound quality, or High fidelity. But I can see that they are cool to play with and very hands on, and I have often thought of getting another for the fun factor...but I'd never pretend it was in any way superior.

Yes but the whole point is people are assuming that because a speaker is active, it would automatically sound better.

The same way that people might say Vinyl is always worse than high res downloads, or SET amps are automatically better than a PP amp, or Pre-Power is better than integrated etc etc.

There are no absolutes that I have found that make something automatically better. Yes I have heard and owned some very good small, bookshelf speakers. But I would only recommend then for a suitable application, the same for some massive horns, again its not going to suit everyone.

As an example, I LOVE my Decware Zen, but for 95% of people it would not suit their needs. It only has a watt or two output, measures pretty bad (although acceptable) only two inputs etc etc. I have found it to be the best at doing a specific job but I am not going to recommend it to everyone as most people wont have the same needs as I do.

 

[John Duncan]

Show me an active speaker which is in a nice wood-effect finish and has a DAC in (so, a whole system, minus source*, in one box) that is no more expensive than the AVIs (though I don't actually need that last criteria, as, regardless of price, I'm 99.0% sure you can't do it.

If you don't mind having them in black or white, then the KEF X300A and Dynaudio XEO3 both qualify. And apparently everybody wants black and white now. Except those who don't.

 

[davedotco]

Oh yes, there is no doubt the AMDs are good value.

'Sounding good' is another matter.

EVERY speaker is a compromise.

Car analogies are not the best but you could get a new Ford Fiesta, it would do everything you could really need from a car, economical, safe, nice to drive, comfortable, spacious and perfectly good in every way, it even looks nice.

When was the last time someone said its the best car they ever had, or the one 'they really want'.

The ADMs are much like this, they do all you need from a speaker, has all the connections, they even look alright but in terms of the pinicle of hifi, they are far from it. They do a job and they do that job in a good way.

But thats it. They are a good compromise if you are after a small speaker that you can plug everything into.

Touch unfair there.

Yes, all speakers are a compromise. And in this case, the compromise is the size. But most people want small speakers.

And for small speakers they sound excellent. Add a sub and they become larger speakers essentially.

They aren't as big a compromise as a turntable for instance, which by all modern standards is a pointless retreat into distortion if what you are after is sound quality, or High fidelity. But I can see that they are cool to play with and very hands on, and I have often thought of getting another for the fun factor...but I'd never pretend it was in any way superior.

Yes but the whole point is people are assuming that because a speaker is active, it would automatically sound better.

The same way that people might say Vinyl is always worse than high res downloads, or SET amps are automatically better than a PP amp, or Pre-Power is better than integrated etc etc.

There are no absolutes that I have found that make something automatically better. Yes I have heard and owned some very good small, bookshelf speakers. But I would only recommend then for a suitable application, the same for some massive horns, again its not going to suit everyone.

As an example, I LOVE my Decware Zen, but for 95% of people it would not suit their needs. It only has a watt or two output, measures pretty bad (although acceptable) only two inputs etc etc. I have found it to be the best at doing a specific job but I am not going to recommend it to everyone as most people wont have the same needs as I do.

I love lunatic amp/speaker combinations, have you written about your amp/speaker combo in any detail anywhere?

Seriously, would like to see what you have done..... :bounce:

 

[Alec]

Show me an active speaker which is in a nice wood-effect finish and has a DAC in (so, a whole system, minus source*, in one box) that is no more expensive than the AVIs (though I don't actually need that last criteria, as, regardless of price, I'm 99.0% sure you can't do it.

If you don't mind having them in black or white, then the KEF X300A and Dynaudio XEO3 both qualify. And apparently everybody wants black and white now. Except those who don't.

I definitely don't. and this is the thing. Though I have considered, now and then, looking for the least awful looking set of black actives with DAC, but I don't do piano black.

 

[hoopsontoast]

There is a more recent thread here in the 'My System' section, or a full one over on hifiwigwam: "hoops, cheese or beans"

 

[altruistic.lemon]

I think hoopsontoast has hit the nail on the head, there's no guarantee that active speakers will automatically sound better than passive, in fact the majority may not sound better at all. It is also true that the proper HiFi actives are expensive - ATC, Linn, PMC etc - and are heavily under represented on this forum

Unfortunately AVI have a disproportionately high representation, which skews any active speaker thread. This isn't helped by the owner of their home forum constantly espousing the notion that all actives are automatically better than passives. While that man is known for questionable tactics, some AVI forum members seem to adopt similar tactics whether knowingly or not. In the time before all records of me were wiped from the AVI forum, there were discussions in the private area about the best way to push AVI on Whathifi, which stuck in my throat, that and some rude comments about prominent contributors here.

I have no doubt AVI make decent lifestyle speakers, but they have the same limitations any small box has. Realistically, to achieve a high level of performance you are looking at the ATC or PMC type speaker, and the price you pay is high.

There is good news, though. My mates in Stuttgart sent me some stuff about some new German actives which are from an established company, are inexpensive, look good, are entirely made in Germany and, apparently, sound stunning. I'll report back when I get some more info.

the reverse is true on other forums.

 

[Alec]

proper HiFi actives

How are these defined?

 

[hoopsontoast]

I think hoopsontoast has hit the nail on the head, there's no guarantee that active speakers will automatically sound better than passive, in fact the majority may not sound better at all. It is also true that the proper HiFi actives are expensive - ATC, Linn, PMC etc - and are heavily under represented on this forum

Unfortunately AVI have a disproportionately high representation, which skews any active speaker thread. This isn't helped by the owner of their home forum constantly espousing the notion that all actives are automatically better than passives. While that man is known for questionable tactics, some AVI forum members seem to adopt similar tactics whether knowingly or not. In the time before all records of me were wiped from the AVI forum, there were discussions in the private area about the best way to push AVI on Whathifi, which stuck in my throat, that and some rude comments about prominent contributors here.

I have no doubt AVI make decent lifestyle speakers, but they have the same limitations any small box has. Realistically, to achieve a high level of performance you are looking at the ATC or PMC type speaker, and the price you pay is high.

There is good news, though. My mates in Stuttgart sent me some stuff about some new German actives which are from an established company, are inexpensive, look good, are entirely made in Germany and, apparently, sound stunning. I'll report back when I get some more info.

the reverse is true on other forums.

ESI speakers? Only briefly heard them (5" and 8" models) but they look VERY good value, not keen on the gloss black :shame:

http://www.puritenorth.co.uk/ESi.htm

 

[davedotco]

proper HiFi actives

How are these defined?

'Not made by AVI'...... :cheer:

Actually Al's post is a goody as he actually answers his own objections.

Active hi-fi speakers are expensive, typically 2, 3 or even more times more expensive than ADM9s. Given the nature of this forum where most of the posts are discussing relatively inexpensive systems, it is hardly surprising that a complete solution at £1300 (ish) gets a lot more attention than say a pair of ATC 2 way actives at £5k plus.

Inexpensive <£2k prosumer active monitors are often mentioned as alternatives but, in the main ignored, primarily I think because they do not appear regularly in Hi-Fi mags and they can't be found in the local Sevenoaks, Audio T and Richer sounds.