expensive mistake

[floyd droid62]

hi long time reader so i thought i would join ,[ ignore bad spellings not my forte] My love of hifi came about by coming across some b&w cm7 black gloss speakers,but after spending a small fortune on different speakers amps and subs i have learnt one very expensive lession," you listen to your room not your speakers." the room in question is a 14ft x11ft acoustical hell hole.my advice to anybody thinking about buying speakers ,floor standing or bookcase to listen to them in your room. i did NOT,, so lost a lot of money trying to achieve the impossible great bass in a small room. without room treatment or room EQ, like DIRAC speakers will sound a muddy droney mess a can not emphasize this enough i have owned B&W cm7 FOCAL CHORUS 816v KEF LS50 SONUS FABER chameleon B FOCAL CHORUS 705v .all of these speakers sounded horrendous played full range in my room .ONLY the b&w cm7 s fully bunged sounded ok with a 100hz crossover,but the sub did not until i got a anti-mode 8033c,better but not great ,i traded the cm7 for focal 816v thinking being front & bottom ported would sound better but it never. unfortunately my avr broke so i went down the stereo amp bookcase route ,but at a cost,of realizing bookcase cant play full range in my room,at the moment i have a cxa60 amp marantz cd player bk monolith ,but no speakers as i am getting a avr for bass managemant,in hindsight i should have kept the kefs an d got a new avr ,but never knew that at the time .hope this helps someone thinking about speaker in a small room

All wrong. The speakers choice was wrong in the first place. One does not need any EQ, once the speakers suit your taste. The room does not matter at all unless you live in a palace and place in it two small bookshelves. You bought incorrect speakers to your taste !

to say a room does not matter clearly shows that you have absolutely no idea, at low frequencies the room dominates the sound , at high frequencies the speakers dominate the sound ; especially in small rooms .This happens around 300hz and this is called .The room transition freqency. all speakers will play to the best of there abllity. but the room will decide how they WILL SOUND

 

[lindsayt]

i know people will think i am exaggerating the issue,I can understand why . i heard some b&w cm1,s in a small room, shop demo the other day they sounded great ,tight loud bass better than every speaker thats been in my room,which is damn annoying as the kef ls50 was a boom box in mine, in retrospect i should have kept them and got a avr but i was pig headed as i wanted to use my new £500 stereo amp ,mistake.

Wow! You must have some really bad room issues if CM1's in a shop sounded better than LS50's in your home.

Just a thought. Have you always positioned your speakers so they were equidistant from the rear wall in a symmetric arrangement?

As an experiment have you ever tried asymmetric positioning of your speakers in your room? With them firing at a 60 degrees type angle across the room, and yourself positioned midway between the speakers? IE skew-whiff speaker placement? With the small size of your room, it may not be a practical permanent solution, but worth trying for an afternoon to see if it helps get a cleaner bass sound.

belive me they did now dont get me wrong if i had auditioned the kefs in the shop it would have been the other way round ; the kefs sounded lovely in the middle of my room and i mean the middle.but soon as they went near a wall the problems would start. i did try the bungs in port but it took away the lovely open sound made them sound congested. as for positioning of speakers there are only so many logical ways you can put them i only had a stereo amp at the time so i sent them back but i should have kept them until i got a AVR for bass management . thinking of the ATC SCM7 a sealed design!

So try them positioned in what most people would regard as an illogical way. Firing asymmetrically diagonally across the room at a non 45 degrees angle, with you listening with each speaker equidistant from your ears.

Even in an acoustically good room, I generally prefer the bass quality from sealed speakers.

However, on the basis of the SCM7's being lower in the model range than 11's, I am unable to recommend them after the recent What Hi-fi bake-off.

 

[ellisdj]

Various solutions to fix - stereo bass eq will be the easiest and quickest solution but you don't need an av receiver you can use a mini dsp dirac unit they have different variants.

Or a dual core antimode

Or a product like the Arcam avr250 and Lyngdorf tdai210 these are both stereo amps with room correction both £2k +

However depends on your budget the individual mini dsp units and antimode dual core are the cheapest

 

[ellisdj]

Various solutions to fix - stereo bass eq will be the easiest and quickest solution but you don't need an av receiver you can use a mini dsp dirac unit they have different variants.

Or a dual core antimode

Or a product like the Arcam avr250 and Lyngdorf tdai210 these are both stereo amps with room correction both £2k +

However depends on your budget the individual mini dsp units and antimode dual core are the cheapest

 

[floyd droid62]

Various solutions to fix - stereo bass eq will be the easiest and quickest solution but you don't need an av receiver you can use a mini dsp dirac unit they have different variants.

Or a dual core antimode

Or a product like the Arcam avr250 and Lyngdorf tdai210 these are both stereo amps with room correction both £2k +

However depends on your budget the individual mini dsp units and antimode dual core are the cheapest

thanks ,my budget is low,but i will look at the mini dsp dirac does this require a lap top as i only have a core pc

 

[floyd droid62]

quote=lindsayt]

i know people will think i am exaggerating the issue,I can understand why . i heard some b&w cm1,s in a small room, shop demo the other day they sounded great ,tight loud bass better than every speaker thats been in my room,which is damn annoying as the kef ls50 was a boom box in mine, in retrospect i should have kept them and got a avr but i was pig headed as i wanted to use my new £500 stereo amp ,mistake.

Wow! You must have some really bad room issues if CM1's in a shop sounded better than LS50's in your home.

Just a thought. Have you always positioned your speakers so they were equidistant from the rear wall in a symmetric arrangement?

As an experiment have you ever tried asymmetric positioning of your speakers in your room? With them firing at a 60 degrees type angle across the room, and yourself positioned midway between the speakers? IE skew-whiff speaker placement? With the small size of your room, it may not be a practical permanent solution, but worth trying for an afternoon to see if it helps get a cleaner bass sound.

belive me they did now dont get me wrong if i had auditioned the kefs in the shop it would have been the other way round ; the kefs sounded lovely in the middle of my room and i mean the middle.but soon as they went near a wall the problems would start. i did try the bungs in port but it took away the lovely open sound made them sound congested. as for positioning of speakers there are only so many logical ways you can put them i only had a stereo amp at the time so i sent them back but i should have kept them until i got a AVR for bass management . thinking of the ATC SCM7 a sealed design!

So try them positioned in what most people would regard as an illogical way. Firing asymmetrically diagonally across the room at a non 45 degrees angle, with you listening with each speaker equidistant from your ears.

Even in an acoustically good room, I generally prefer the bass quality from sealed speakers.

However, on the basis of the SCM7's being lower in the model range than 11's, I am unable to recommend them after the recent What Hi-fi bake-off.

[/quote]

i think i have got to the stage where it is just not worth spending good money on this room i am on a low budget so anything i get takes saving,

wharfedales 220 or dali zensor 3 are coming to look more attractive, seriously

 

[jonathanRD]

I had my hifi in a 13ft x 11ft room for about 20 years with no issues, but I had relatively small bookshelf speakers (Mission 780's) and no sub. And I'm not into heavy bass.

Are you able to post a layout of the room showing dimensions, furniture, speaker and sub placement, and your seating position? That may provide a few further suggestions on what you can try without spending any money.

 

[floyd droid62]

I had my hifi in a 13ft x 11ft room for about 20 years with no issues, but I had relatively small bookshelf speakers (Mission 780's) and no sub. And I'm not into heavy bass.

Are you able to post a layout of the room showing dimensions, furniture, speaker and sub placement, and your seating position? That may provide a few further suggestions on what you can try without spending any money.

HI The small focal chorus 705v, I only got it to see if a speaker designed for a small room would drone it did, on certain bass notes,but it did sound puny ,like a small radio .After much reading off forums i know it is room problem ; more so right where the speaker needs to go ,each side of t.v front wall, it is not the type of music i play ,take tubular bell part one the bass guitar becomes a droney church organ i would post some photos but i don,t know how on this site the mission780 had a frequency response of about 70hz -3db so it is possible it would play in my room ,but is so annoying some people can play much bigger speakers

 

[Electro]

If you would like to try something cheap and easy go and buy four of these.

http://www.diy.com/departments/knauf-ekoroll-loft-insulation-l728m-w1140mm-t100mm/182146_BQ.prd

Then place them on their end around the rear or side of the speakers in different positions but leaving a gap between the rolls.

Play some music and be amazed at the difference, you can move them about while the music is playing to obtain the best balance.

It may not be a permanent solution but it will help you understand how bass works in your room.

You could always cover them in fabric for that bespoke acoustic treatment look . *smile*

Believe me it really does work!

The picture below is the starting point you can add more and move them around if you wish.

 

[paulkebab]

Whoever thinks that is talking out the rear passage. Every time I've moved house I've had to sell my speakers, not the amp, CDP, DAC or cables - just the speakers. I'm not talking big margins either, just one foot in room width totally nulled the bass from a pair of Wharfedale E70's I adored but had to sell. As someone advised, find a pair of speakers that hit the tonal sweet spot for you, then see if they work in your room which really should take a pair of small floorstanders rather than standmounts IMO. That's the only way forward, any other way is more money wasted and that's not what we're here for. I empathise with your frustration and wish you well in your difficult quest.

 

[Pedro2]

I also have room issues (4m X 4m, thick stone walls, low ceiling) that have been mostly cured with a sealed speaker (ATC scm11), amp that controls them well (Nord Hypex) and some help from Linn's Space digital processing. Room acoustics do play an important part in the creation of any sound and speakers can sound very different in a shop before purchase.

 

[floyd droid62]

If you would like to try something cheap and easy go and buy four of these.

http://www.diy.com/departments/knauf-ekoroll-loft-insulation-l728m-w1140mm-t100mm/182146_BQ.prd

Then place them on their end around the rear or side of the speakers in different positions but leaving a gap between the rolls.

Play some music and be amazed at the difference, you can move them about while the music is playing to obtain the best balance.

It may not be a permanent solution but it will help you understand how bass works in your room.

You could always cover them in fabric for that bespoke acoustic treatment look . *smile*

Believe me it really does work!

The picture below is the starting point you can add more and move them around if you wish.

great setup if i was single i would have a room like that ,however i live with my wife who is strictly in charge of the front room ,in a small house with 4 grown up children,i have decided that i am wasting no more money on expensive speakers ,so whats your opinion on dali zensor 3 or wharfedale 220 ? how do you upload picture on this site?

 

[floyd droid62]

Whoever thinks that is talking out the rear passage. Every time I've moved house I've had to sell my speakers, not the amp, CDP, DAC or cables - just the speakers. I'm not talking big margins either, just one foot in room width totally nulled the bass from a pair of Wharfedale E70's I adored but had to sell. As someone advised, find a pair of speakers that hit the tonal sweet spot for you, then see if they work in your room which really should take a pair of small floorstanders rather than standmounts IMO. That's the only way forward, any other way is more money wasted and that's not what we're here for. I empathise with your frustration and wish you well in your difficult quest.

those e70,s look if they would sound nice, Good to know that i am not alone in thinking small room can be nightmare i love floorstanders but i am curious as to why you recommended floorstanders as opposed to standmounts in my small room

 

[floyd droid62]

I also have room issues (4m X 4m, thick stone walls, low ceiling) that have been mostly cured with a sealed speaker (ATC scm11), amp that controls them well (Nord Hypex) and some help from Linn's Space digital processing. Room acoustics do play an important part in the creation of any sound and speakers can sound very different in a shop before purchase.

i have lost heart really, if money was no object i would try atc scm7 & 11 ,in retrospect i would have got them in the first place but i have wasted a lot off money so i was thinking of budget speakers maybe wharfedale 220 or dali zensor 3

 

[hg]

i think i have got to the stage where it is just not worth spending good money on this room i am on a low budget so anything i get takes saving, wharfedales 220 or dali zensor 3 are coming to look more attractive, seriously

If the problem is the room then why not address it along the lines I outlined in an early post? It doesn't usually take much money to turn a bad room response into an OK one although it does take a bit of effort to identify what the issues are in order to reduce them. A good room response in a small room is more of a challenge apart from < 100 Hz where it is pretty much the same as any other room.

Are you placing your speakers on the walls either side of the TV?

 

[TrevC]

I also have room issues (4m X 4m, thick stone walls, low ceiling) that have been mostly cured with a sealed speaker (ATC scm11), amp that controls them well (Nord Hypex) and some help from Linn's Space digital processing. Room acoustics do play an important part in the creation of any sound and speakers can sound very different in a shop before purchase.

i have lost heart really, if money was no object i would try atc scm7 & 11 ,in retrospect i would have got them in the first place but i have wasted a lot off money so i was thinking of budget speakers maybe wharfedale 220 or dali zensor 3

EQ is the way to go. Fit one of these and never look back. Not cheap, but worth it. I have the subwoofer one and the bass is fantastic now. No booming, and those deep organ pedal notes clearly audible.

http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml

BK Electronics sell them.

 

[floyd droid62]

i think i have got to the stage where it is just not worth spending good money on this room i am on a low budget so anything i get takes saving, wharfedales 220 or dali zensor 3 are coming to look more attractive, seriously

If the problem is the room then why not address it along the lines I outlined in an early post? It doesn't usually take much money to turn a bad room response into an OK one although it does take a bit of effort to identify what the issues are in order to reduce them. A good room response in a small room is more of a challenge apart from < 100 Hz where it is pretty much the same as any other room.

Are you placing your speakers on the walls either side of the TV?

yes ,the only place free really i have a 50 " t.v on a 11ft wall.

 

[floyd droid62]

I also have room issues (4m X 4m, thick stone walls, low ceiling) that have been mostly cured with a sealed speaker (ATC scm11), amp that controls them well (Nord Hypex) and some help from Linn's Space digital processing. Room acoustics do play an important part in the creation of any sound and speakers can sound very different in a shop before purchase.

i have lost heart really, if money was no object i would try atc scm7 & 11 ,in retrospect i would have got them in the first place but i have wasted a lot off money so i was thinking of budget speakers maybe wharfedale 220 or dali zensor 3

EQ is the way to go. Fit one of these and never look back. Not cheap, but worth it. I have the subwoofer one and the bass is fantastic now. No booming, and those deep organ pedal notes clearly audible.

http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml

BK Electronics sell them.

yes i know i have the antimode 8033C on the bk monolith it .improved it no end ,i was looking at the dual core but £680 to stop the droney speakers but at £680 ,to much for the wife to agree and i can,t blame her

 

[emperor's new clothes]

Hi Floyd,

To add another room variable - do you have a suspended floor? After 40 years of speakers on solid floors - my AV still sits on one - my hifi is upstairs on a suspended floor. Without isolation and bass traps, it would sound dreadful. Regarding AVR, I find that the latest audessy DSP delivers excellent results in my room. I have Tubular Bells on SACD and that bass guitar intro is solid on both systems - the 42Hz E string creats no discernable boom.

 

[TrevC]

I also have room issues (4m X 4m, thick stone walls, low ceiling) that have been mostly cured with a sealed speaker (ATC scm11), amp that controls them well (Nord Hypex) and some help from Linn's Space digital processing. Room acoustics do play an important part in the creation of any sound and speakers can sound very different in a shop before purchase.

i have lost heart really, if money was no object i would try atc scm7 & 11 ,in retrospect i would have got them in the first place but i have wasted a lot off money so i was thinking of budget speakers maybe wharfedale 220 or dali zensor 3

EQ is the way to go. Fit one of these and never look back. Not cheap, but worth it. I have the subwoofer one and the bass is fantastic now. No booming, and those deep organ pedal notes clearly audible.

http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml

BK Electronics sell them.

yes i know i have the antimode 8033C on the bk monolith it .improved it no end ,i was looking at the dual core but £680 to stop the droney speakers but at £680 ,to much for the wife to agree and i can,t blame her

You could always go for bass light mini speakers and use the equalized sub to fill in. The missus will like mini speakers. :O)

 

[hg]

Are you placing your speakers on the walls either side of the TV?

yes ,the only place free really i have a 50 " t.v on a 11ft wall.

That will drive the axial modes strongly. Does you subwoofer have an adjustable delay knob and a gain knob? If so, we can perform an experiment to greatly reduce one or other of the 40 or 80 Hz axial modes so you can hear if that is the problem. If it has a set of filters we can do both.

 

[Electro]

If you would like to try something cheap and easy go and buy four of these.

http://www.diy.com/departments/knauf-ekoroll-loft-insulation-l728m-w1140mm-t100mm/182146_BQ.prd

Then place them on their end around the rear or side of the speakers in different positions but leaving a gap between the rolls.

Play some music and be amazed at the difference, you can move them about while the music is playing to obtain the best balance.

It may not be a permanent solution but it will help you understand how bass works in your room.

You could always cover them in fabric for that bespoke acoustic treatment look . *smile*

Believe me it really does work!

The picture below is the starting point you can add more and move them around if you wish.

great setup if i was single i would have a room like that ,however i live with my wife who is strictly in charge of the front room ,in a small house with 4 grown up children,i have decided that i am wasting no more money on expensive speakers ,so whats your opinion on dali zensor 3 or wharfedale 220 ? how do you upload picture on this site?

I am lucky it is my personal man cavern so I do what I like in there *smile*

I experienced a nasty bass null in the centre of my room where I wanted to sit.

The bass was collecting in the corners and not spreading out evenly, if I stood in the corner the bass was very powerful and tight but in the listening position it sounded lacking and not as powerful and deep as it should.

As soon as I put the insulation rolls in the corners the null all but disapeared, I still have more work to do though *smile*

I have no experience of the speakers you mention but I agree with others that have already said that changing the speakers will only make a small difference to the problem .

To upload picture you will need to use a free picture hosting site such as photobucket.

http://s1153.photobucket.com/

You upload your picture to the site then copy the link and add it to your post using the image box in the tools at the top of the comment box.

 

[floyd droid62]

Are you placing your speakers on the walls either side of the TV?

yes ,the only place free really i have a 50 " t.v on a 11ft wall.

That will drive the axial modes strongly. Does you subwoofer have an adjustable delay knob and a gain knob? If so, we can perform an experiment to greatly reduce one or other of the 40 or 80 Hz axial modes so you can hear if that is the problem. If it has a set of filters we can do both.

it is bk monolith ,180 variable phase, i have tinkered with the phase to purposely cause a cancellation but it seems wrong so i leave it at zero 40hz is the problem but phase cancellation will effect good bass as well ,if that makes sense

 

[floyd droid62]

If you would like to try something cheap and easy go and buy four of these.

http://www.diy.com/departments/knauf-ekoroll-loft-insulation-l728m-w1140mm-t100mm/182146_BQ.prd

Then place them on their end around the rear or side of the speakers in different positions but leaving a gap between the rolls.

Play some music and be amazed at the difference, you can move them about while the music is playing to obtain the best balance.

It may not be a permanent solution but it will help you understand how bass works in your room.

You could always cover them in fabric for that bespoke acoustic treatment look . *smile*

Believe me it really does work!

The picture below is the starting point you can add more and move them around if you wish.

great setup if i was single i would have a room like that ,however i live with my wife who is strictly in charge of the front room ,in a small house with 4 grown up children,i have decided that i am wasting no more money on expensive speakers ,so whats your opinion on dali zensor 3 or wharfedale 220 ? how do you upload picture on this site?

I am lucky it is my personal man cavern so I do what I like in there *smile*

I experienced a nasty bass null in the centre of my room where I wanted to sit.

The bass was collecting in the corners and not spreading out evenly, if I stood in the corner the bass was very powerful and tight but in the listening position it sounded lacking and not as powerful and deep as it should.

As soon as I put the insulation rolls in the corners the null all but disapeared, I still have more work to do though *smile*

I have no experience of the speakers you mention but I agree with others that have already said that changing the speakers will only make a small difference to the problem .

To upload picture you will need to use a free picture hosting site such as photobucket.

http://s1153.photobucket.com/

You upload your picture to the site then copy the link and add it to your post using the image box in the tools at the top of the comment box.

 

[floyd droid62]

If you would like to try something cheap and easy go and buy four of these.

http://www.diy.com/departments/knauf-ekoroll-loft-insulation-l728m-w1140mm-t100mm/182146_BQ.prd

Then place them on their end around the rear or side of the speakers in different positions but leaving a gap between the rolls.

Play some music and be amazed at the difference, you can move them about while the music is playing to obtain the best balance.

It may not be a permanent solution but it will help you understand how bass works in your room.

You could always cover them in fabric for that bespoke acoustic treatment look . *smile*

Believe me it really does work!

The picture below is the starting point you can add more and move them around if you wish.

great setup if i was single i would have a room like that ,however i live with my wife who is strictly in charge of the front room ,in a small house with 4 grown up children,i have decided that i am wasting no more money on expensive speakers ,so whats your opinion on dali zensor 3 or wharfedale 220 ? how do you upload picture on this site?

I am lucky it is my personal man cavern so I do what I like in there *smile*

I experienced a nasty bass null in the centre of my room where I wanted to sit.

The bass was collecting in the corners and not spreading out evenly, if I stood in the corner the bass was very powerful and tight but in the listening position it sounded lacking and not as powerful and deep as it should.

As soon as I put the insulation rolls in the corners the null all but disapeared, I still have more work to do though *smile*

I have no experience of the speakers you mention but I agree with others that have already said that changing the speakers will only make a small difference to the problem .

To upload picture you will need to use a free picture hosting site such as photobucket.

http://s1153.photobucket.com/

You upload your picture to the site then copy the link and add it to your post using the image box in the tools at the top of the comment box.

my problem room