expensive mistake

[hg]

i know for a fact is is my room may be it is the wooden floor may be it is that i got 2 doors who knows !

You will know if you measure your room and work out which peak and dip is caused by which room mode for a given speaker and listener location. It is not a lot of effort but it is some effort. The free REW room simulator can help with a fair amount of the insight.

but only a 100hz crossover solves it 'so it must be bass modes booming that is why i am getting a AVR to crossover to the sub that as a antimode 8033C i know two subs are better four subs even better but that is more money

Equalising a single subwoofer will only be able to reduce most of the peaks. It cannot correct the dips. This is likely to be a signifiant improvement but it will not be high sound quality.

The point of multiple subs (if used competently which is not always the case in the audiophile world) is to both create and absorb sound. This is what will fill in the dips in the response and create a drier bass response. You cannot absorb with only one sub because it has obviously got to create sound at all frequencies. The simplest example is a sub in the middle of the front wall and a sub in the middle of the back wall that is set to the inverse of the front sub plus a delay equal to the time sound takes to get from the front wall to the back wall. The listener hears the sound from the front sub pass over their head and then it is absorbed by the sub on the back wall. Perfect dry bass except of course the sound spreads out from the subs in all 3 directions and so the absorption is not perfect and you will get less dry bass (which is usually what is wanted!) and although the axial front-back room modes will be well suppressed the other modes will not. Nonetheless this simple arrangement is usually a dramatic improvement because the axial front-back modes are usually the most troublesome.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Shame on those who derailed the post. (Yea I know!) But, the biggest shame on those who suggest the room has no effect on sound (basically). A lesson to those who listen to the foolish on a search for truth. You want truth? Go to Nordost web site.

 

[floyd droid62]

I think stop now - stop the guess work.

Invest in a UMIK1 and REW which is free - learn to measure yours room freq response - remove the guess work - fix the problem.

In the interim put your rooms dimensions into REW Sim and it will give you a pretty accurate reading of the problem

thanks I will, my problem it what to do if I did find the cause as the remedy no doubt would be costly or unpractical as big bass traps with a houseproud wife. The only option open to me is crossover ,whether it be floorstanders or stand mounts in my case it does not matter as the crossover works as I established that and let the antimode help the best it can, I know a £2500 dirac avr for instance would work .if you sat in my room played a floorstander you would understand ,but if you played a bookcase and heard the same droney bass you would be baffled especially a small bookcase ,yes the drone is less but still there

 

[ellisdj]

your droney bass could be caused by excessive ringing at a certain freq, I have a similar problem and other problems still to fix.

You will see this in a waterfall plot

Its unfortunate that good sound requires this much work and commitment, however it does reward those ho put the effort in

Using multiples subs requires less impact on the room decor so it might be the way to go - but adding room treatments has multiple benefits and improves all your sound - not just the bass. I think a sub sat system will be best for you - rather than hifi, unless you use an Arcam SR250 which is a stereo power amp with dirac - that might be one you mean. An Alternative is a Lyngdorf TDAI210 somehting like - it uses Room Perfect.

Its tough in sound I know - I am lucky and am allowed a ton of treatment and blacked out conditions for a PJ - but not everyone is as charming as me or has the good looks of Uncle Fester like me - Maybe try shaving your head to start

 

[Leeps]

The room does not matter at all unless you live in a palace and place in it two small bookshelves. You bought incorrect speakers to your taste !

You must be smoking something very strong to think that. Keep it away from me Or have never measured the freq response of speakers in a room.

That is completely wrong. The room matters more than everything. It shapes your sound completely and utterly destroys it

Couldn't agree more.

I would imagine Stereoman has simply been very lucky so far and hasn't encuntered acoustically difficult rooms as I have. Try putting large floorstanders in a 14' x 10' low-ceiling plainly furnished room (firing along the shorter distance) with no acoustic treatment and just listen to, feel and measure the bass humps and reflections.

Size of the room alone isn't always the issue. My previous room was smaller, but was in an old house with numerous different angles in the walls and ceiling. Acoustically it was fantastic. I transported the identical system into my new place, with a much larger listening room and bass was very boomy indeed. Still working on that!

 

[floyd droid62]

your droney bass could be caused by excessive ringing at a certain freq, I have a similar problem and other problems still to fix.

You will see this in a waterfall plot

Its unfortunate that good sound requires this much work and commitment, however it does reward those ho put the effort in

Using multiples subs requires less impact on the room decor so it might be the way to go - but adding room treatments has multiple benefits and improves all your sound - not just the bass. I think a sub sat system will be best for you - rather than hifi, unless you use an Arcam SR250 which is a stereo power amp with dirac - that might be one you mean. An Alternative is a Lyngdorf TDAI210 somehting like - it uses Room Perfect.

Its tough in sound I know - I am lucky and am allowed a ton of treatment and blacked out conditions for a PJ - but not everyone is as charming as me or has the good looks of Uncle Fester like me - Maybe try shaving your head to start

excessive ringing at cetain freq

umm i think your on to something there ,it does describe the sound., for example the bass guitar in the opening of tubular bells part one .The bass guitar sounds overblown ,that what was annoying me in the little focals [705v] it was like a church organ note. you are probably right with the sub sat system,but to much of a compremise,floorstanders to sat definitely not.

I am not looking for a stereo amp,that was a big mistake on my part ,even gettng one because at the time i thought bookcase speakers would solve any roomi ssues.unlucky for me my avr broke at the time of selling floorstanders so i got a CXA60 as i was thinking stereo set up with standmounts ,but now i am getting a AVR for bass management,as i KNOW NOW ,i can,t play bookcase full range,hence expensive mistake

 

[floyd droid62]

The room does not matter at all unless you live in a palace and place in it two small bookshelves. You bought incorrect speakers to your taste !

You must be smoking something very strong to think that. Keep it away from me Or have never measured the freq response of speakers in a room.

That is completely wrong. The room matters more than everything. It shapes your sound completely and utterly destroys it

Couldn't agree more.

I would imagine Stereoman has simply been very lucky so far and hasn't encuntered acoustically difficult rooms as I have. Try putting large floorstanders in a 14' x 10' low-ceiling plainly furnished room (firing along the shorter distance) with no acoustic treatment and just listen to, feel and measure the bass humps and reflections.

Size of the room alone isn't always the issue. My previous room was smaller, but was in an old house with numerous different angles in the walls and ceiling. Acoustically it was fantastic. I transported the identical system into my new place, with a much larger listening room and bass was very boomy indeed. Still working on that!

i know people will think i am exaggerating the issue,I can understand why . i heard some b&w cm1,s in a small room, shop demo the other day they sounded great ,tight loud bass better than every speaker thats been in my room,which is damn annoying as the kef ls50 was a boom box in mine, in retrospect i should have kept them and got a avr but i was pig headed as i wanted to use my new £500 stereo amp ,mistake.

 

[alwaysbeblue1]

I have a fairly small room. 2 window, wood flooring and a protruding fireplace, yet my Cyrus amp and cd player with Spendor a6r speakers sound amazingly good

I understand how a room makes a difference but surly if your 5 to 10k system sounds off in an average room then it must have something to do with the system as well

 

[stereoman]

Shame on those who derailed the post. (Yea I know!) But, the biggest shame on those who suggest the room has no effect on sound (basically). A lesson to those who listen to the foolish on a search for truth. You want truth? Go to Nordost web site.

It has in terms of reverbation etc. But it never will take the detail out of the speakers or add any sound features like more bass or less bass etc. Impossible. When someone puts tapestry on their walls of course that will soften the reverbation of the sound for example but will not change the characteristics of the speaker. Look also at this point from another perspective: Many prominent loudspeaker producers ONLY develop their speakers in heavily "egg foam" equipped acoustic rooms. Then they measure them etc. Afterwards those speakers go to usual shops and are demoed there in NO acoustic chamber , right ? Again , of course if you put more stuff in your room , you will change the sound - but not the speakers sound - only the ambience sound. Of course filling the room with sound is sth. different that is why one has a choice of bookshelves or floorstanders or bigger floorstanders etc. But the wrong speakers bought at the first place will never be bettered ! Also please mind, just a quick listening sessions in shops are very risky themselves. I mean, one gets only first impression , you can never develop full knowledge of the speaker sound after a few hour sessions. Only really some profi audiophiles can judge a speaker sound within the demo time in a shop. That is why a speaker purchase will always be to some extent risky thing to do. So please, take your fav CD, go to the shop once,go the next day etc. a few times in a row and really think over whether they are trully the speakers you wanna buy. Still it gives no guarantee. Our brains are somehow biased by shop listening demo because of the first impression and because of the fact we do not know them in 100%. Again I believe that the right speakers will always sound right no matter what.

 

[floyd droid62]

I have a fairly small room. 2 window, wood flooring and a protruding fireplace, yet my Cyrus amp and cd player with Spendor a6r speakers sound amazingly good

I understand how a room makes a difference but surly if your 5 to 10k system sounds off in an average room then it must have something to do with the system as well

i think i have a very unforgiving room.but a crossover does work,but not full range in the spot where i want them,the focal chorus 705v was almost there,just a few boomy notes i do not want to play full range now as i am getting a avr. but at the time i only had a stereo amp

 

[floyd droid62]

Shame on those who derailed the post. (Yea I know!) But, the biggest shame on those who suggest the room has no effect on sound (basically). A lesson to those who listen to the foolish on a search for truth. You want truth? Go to Nordost web site.

It has in terms of reverbation etc. But it never will take the detail out of the speakers or add any sound features like more bass or less bass etc. Impossible. When someone puts tapestry on their walls of course that will soften the reverbation of the sound for example but will not change the characteristics of the speaker. Look also at this point from another perspective: Many prominent loudspeaker producers ONLY develop their speakers in heavily "egg foam" equipped acoustic rooms. Then they measure them etc. Afterwards those speakers go to usual shops and are demoed there in NO acoustic chamber , right ? Again , of course if you put more stuff in your room , you will change the sound - but not the speakers sound - only the ambience sound. Of course filling the room with sound is sth. different that is why one has a choice of bookshelves or floorstanders or bigger floorstanders etc. But the wrong speakers bought at the first place will never be bettered ! Also please mind, just a quick listening sessions in shops are very risky themselves. I mean, one gets only first impression , you can never develop full knowledge of the speaker sound after a few hour sessions. Only really some profi audiophiles can judge a speaker sound within the demo time in a shop. That is why a speaker purchase will always be to some extent risky thing to do. So please, take your fav CD, go to the shop once,go the next day etc. a few times in a row and really think over whether they are trully the speakers you wanna buy. Still it gives no guarantee. Our brains are somehow biased by shop listening demo because of the first impression and because of the fact we do not know them in 100%. Again I believe that the right speakers will always sound right no matter what.

yes you are right the right speaker will work , i am going to try a sealed speaker next ATC SCM7

 

[Blacksabbath25]

What kind of music are you into ? What formats do you use ? And how far away do you have your speakers from the back wall & side walls . Personally I wouldn't use an AV amp if your serous about music playback I know people do I would use a proper amplifier not the Cambridge amp you have something better then that something that will take control of the bass better . buy a new amp buy some better speakers on sale or return . Then you can try them both at home if your not happy take it all back and you have not lost nothing .

I like classic rock , heavy metal , blues music , classical music I've found to hear instruments properly like the drum kit you need a good quality amp and good quality speakers and with heavy metal music it's the worst music to get sounding right as the bass can boom . If your from the U.K. Try getting a demo at richer sounds on some Dali opticon 6s floor standing speakers and the amp you want to try is the abrahamsen 2up this amp will grip bass properly and this amp is a good match with the Dali's too .

 

[jonathanRD]

The BK Monolith is a large ported sub - although it does not say so on their website, I suspect if you asked BK for advice, they probably would have steered you in the direction of a sealed sub such as the XXLS400 or XXLS200 for your room size.

Did you buy your monolith for cinema duties, music or both?

When I asked BK for advice (50/50 music/cinema in a 20ft x 16ft room) they advised the XXLS400.

There cant be much space left in your room with the monolith in there. I hope your house is well built *smile*

 

[floyd droid62]

I have a fairly small room. 2 window, wood flooring and a protruding fireplace, yet my Cyrus amp and cd player with Spendor a6r speakers sound amazingly good

I understand how a room makes a difference but surly if your 5 to 10k system sounds off in an average room then it must have something to do with the system as well

that is a beautiful speaker with a room response to around 32hz,the best speaker that I had was a b&w cm7 room response 34hz now there was no way I could play them full range with normal chart music unless you just listen to bass free music you are very lucky ,with a 100hz crossover using a half bung mine use to sound lovey ,in retrospect I with I had never sold them

 

[floyd droid62]

The BK Monolith is a large ported sub - although it does not say so on their website, I suspect if you asked BK for advice, they probably would have steered you in the direction of a sealed sub such as the XXLS400 or XXLS200 for your room size.

Did you buy your monolith for cinema duties, music or both?

When I asked BK for advice (50/50 music/cinema in a 20ft x 16ft room) they advised the XXLS400.

There cant be much space left in your room with the monolith in there. I hope your house is well built *smile*

yes you are right the monolith is more of a movie sub ,for a ported sub it is considered one of the best for music it has a very low group decay,however a sealed sub is considered better for music , if I had asked bk ,they would have recommended the xls400 but at the time I was more into films than music

 

[ellisdj]

It doesn't matter what amp you use bring in the naim statement if you have big peak in your bass response you will always hear it no matter what.

Why most hifi you hear have poor bass some worse than poor

 

[lindsayt]

i know people will think i am exaggerating the issue,I can understand why . i heard some b&w cm1,s in a small room, shop demo the other day they sounded great ,tight loud bass better than every speaker thats been in my room,which is damn annoying as the kef ls50 was a boom box in mine, in retrospect i should have kept them and got a avr but i was pig headed as i wanted to use my new £500 stereo amp ,mistake.

Wow! You must have some really bad room issues if CM1's in a shop sounded better than LS50's in your home.

Just a thought. Have you always positioned your speakers so they were equidistant from the rear wall in a symmetric arrangement?

As an experiment have you ever tried asymmetric positioning of your speakers in your room? With them firing at a 60 degrees type angle across the room, and yourself positioned midway between the speakers? IE skew-whiff speaker placement? With the small size of your room, it may not be a practical permanent solution, but worth trying for an afternoon to see if it helps get a cleaner bass sound.

 

[floyd droid62]

What kind of music are you into ? What formats do you use ? And how far away do you have your speakers from the back wall & side walls . Personally I wouldn't use an AV amp if your serous about music playback I know people do I would use a proper amplifier not the Cambridge amp you have something better then that something that will take control of the bass better . buy a new amp buy some better speakers on sale or return . Then you can try them both at home if your not happy take it all back and you have not lost nothing .

I like classic rock , heavy metal , blues music , classical music I've found to hear instruments properly like the drum kit you need a good quality amp and good quality speakers and with heavy metal music it's the worst music to get sounding right as the bass can boom . If your from the U.K. Try getting a demo at richer sounds on some Dali opticon 6s floor standing speakers and the amp you want to try is the abrahamsen 2up this amp will grip bass properly and this amp is a good match with the Dali's too .

my room size is 14ftx11ft so you can guess how much room for speakers .music taste; pink floyd to norha jones ,R&B to chart ,depends on mood really .NO avr = no bass management not a good idea unless you listen in abbey road .as to why you think a £500 stereo amp is not up to the task is beyond me i will demo future speakers at home as i do live in U.K

 

[floyd droid62]

i know people will think i am exaggerating the issue,I can understand why . i heard some b&w cm1,s in a small room, shop demo the other day they sounded great ,tight loud bass better than every speaker thats been in my room,which is damn annoying as the kef ls50 was a boom box in mine, in retrospect i should have kept them and got a avr but i was pig headed as i wanted to use my new £500 stereo amp ,mistake.

Wow! You must have some really bad room issues if CM1's in a shop sounded better than LS50's in your home.

Just a thought. Have you always positioned your speakers so they were equidistant from the rear wall in a symmetric arrangement?

As an experiment have you ever tried asymmetric positioning of your speakers in your room? With them firing at a 60 degrees type angle across the room, and yourself positioned midway between the speakers? IE skew-whiff speaker placement? With the small size of your room, it may not be a practical permanent solution, but worth trying for an afternoon to see if it helps get a cleaner bass sound.

belive me they did

now dont get me wrong if i had auditioned the kefs in the shop it would have been the other way round ; the kefs sounded lovely in the middle of my room and i mean the middle.but soon as they went near a wall the problems would start. i did try the bungs in port but it took away the lovely open sound made them sound congested. as for positioning of speakers there are only so many logical ways you can put them i only had a stereo amp at the time so i sent them back but i should have kept them until i got a AVR for bass management . thinking of the ATC SCM7 a sealed design!

 

[floyd droid62]

It doesn't matter what amp you use bring in the naim statement if you have big peak in your bass response you will always hear it no matter what.

Why most hifi you hear have poor bass some worse than poor

totally agree

 

[ellisdj]

I don't know what makes you think a sealed speaker will be better.

You need to find the route of your problem first before buying anymore speakers in my eyes.

Fix the problem then buy the speakers that you like the most.

 

[floyd droid62]

I don't know what makes you think a sealed speaker will be better.

You need to find the route of your problem first before buying anymore speakers in my eyes.

Fix the problem then buy the speakers that you like the most.

i thought it might be the port resonating at the exact room peak, just a wild guess, but you are right buy the speakers i like .IF i am forced to use a crossover i may as well have a floorstander because the problem go,s at 100hz,yes to the sub but that has a off switch

 

[Matte]

Shame on those who derailed the post. (Yea I know!) But, the biggest shame on those who suggest the room has no effect on sound (basically). A lesson to those who listen to the foolish on a search for truth. You want truth? Go to Nordost web site.

It has in terms of reverbation etc. But it never will take the detail out of the speakers or add any sound features like more bass or less bass etc. Impossible. When someone puts tapestry on their walls of course that will soften the reverbation of the sound for example but will not change the characteristics of the speaker. Look also at this point from another perspective: Many prominent loudspeaker producers ONLY develop their speakers in heavily "egg foam" equipped acoustic rooms. Then they measure them etc. Afterwards those speakers go to usual shops and are demoed there in NO acoustic chamber , right ? Again , of course if you put more stuff in your room , you will change the sound - but not the speakers sound - only the ambience sound. Of course filling the room with sound is sth. different that is why one has a choice of bookshelves or floorstanders or bigger floorstanders etc. But the wrong speakers bought at the first place will never be bettered ! Also please mind, just a quick listening sessions in shops are very risky themselves. I mean, one gets only first impression , you can never develop full knowledge of the speaker sound after a few hour sessions. Only really some profi audiophiles can judge a speaker sound within the demo time in a shop. That is why a speaker purchase will always be to some extent risky thing to do. So please, take your fav CD, go to the shop once,go the next day etc. a few times in a row and really think over whether they are trully the speakers you wanna buy. Still it gives no guarantee. Our brains are somehow biased by shop listening demo because of the first impression and because of the fact we do not know them in 100%. Again I believe that the right speakers will always sound right no matter what.

But from what you're saying, your implying rooms can't make speakers sound poor, because rooms CAN add bass, it's such a well known effect as many other room effects. You only have to read people who monitor music for mixing recordings, it's the big issue to remove room effects first. (of course the speaker is outputting the same sound as in the test chamber?)

Rooms can create standing waves that can 'add' to the to the sound we hear. British rooms with 7'6"" walls and squarish rooms are notorious. Reflected sounds being the other.

I had a system that boomed in a enclosed room and the same system in different house, that had a set of stairs behind my seated position sounded excellent.

You almost answered your own question by saying that speakers are tested in acoustically 'dead' chambers, this is so the room doesn't effect the measured frequency response. Inferring that rooms do effect the received speaker response.

Many manufactures additonally choose to test the speakers in simulated furnished rooms.

 

[Dom]

 

[floyd droid62]

Shame on those who derailed the post. (Yea I know!) But, the biggest shame on those who suggest the room has no effect on sound (basically). A lesson to those who listen to the foolish on a search for truth. You want truth? Go to Nordost web site.

It has in terms of reverbation etc. But it never will take the detail out of the speakers or add any sound features like more bass or less bass etc. Impossible. When someone puts tapestry on their walls of course that will soften the reverbation of the sound for example but will not change the characteristics of the speaker. Look also at this point from another perspective: Many prominent loudspeaker producers ONLY develop their speakers in heavily "egg foam" equipped acoustic rooms. Then they measure them etc. Afterwards those speakers go to usual shops and are demoed there in NO acoustic chamber , right ? Again , of course if you put more stuff in your room , you will change the sound - but not the speakers sound - only the ambience sound. Of course filling the room with sound is sth. different that is why one has a choice of bookshelves or floorstanders or bigger floorstanders etc. But the wrong speakers bought at the first place will never be bettered ! Also please mind, just a quick listening sessions in shops are very risky themselves. I mean, one gets only first impression , you can never develop full knowledge of the speaker sound after a few hour sessions. Only really some profi audiophiles can judge a speaker sound within the demo time in a shop. That is why a speaker purchase will always be to some extent risky thing to do. So please, take your fav CD, go to the shop once,go the next day etc. a few times in a row and really think over whether they are trully the speakers you wanna buy. Still it gives no guarantee. Our brains are somehow biased by shop listening demo because of the first impression and because of the fact we do not know them in 100%. Again I believe that the right speakers will always sound right no matter what.

But from what you're saying, your implying rooms can't make speakers sound poor, because rooms CAN add bass, it's such a well known effect as many other room effects. You only have to read people who monitor music for mixing recordings, it's the big issue to remove room effects first. (of course the speaker is outputting the same sound as in the test chamber?)

Rooms can create standing waves that can 'add' to the to the sound we hear. British rooms with 7'6"" walls and squarish rooms are notorious. Reflected sounds being the other.

I had a system that boomed in a enclosed room and the same system in different house, that had a set of stairs behind my seated position sounded excellent.

You almost answered your own question by saying that speakers are tested in acoustically 'dead' chambers, this is so the room doesn't effect the measured frequency response. Inferring that rooms do effect the received speaker response.

Many manufactures additonally choose to test the speakers in simulated furnished rooms.

so rooms will make speakers sound bad thank you,so many people have said "i have floorstanders in a small room,"and they sound great, well i had bookcase in a small room and they sounded horrendous (played full range)