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expensive mistake

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floyd droid62

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Sep 29, 2016
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emperor's new clothes said:
Hi Floyd,

To add another room variable - do you have a suspended floor? After 40 years of speakers on solid floors - my AV still sits on one - my hifi is upstairs on a suspended floor. Without isolation and bass traps, it would sound dreadful. Regarding AVR, I find that the latest audessy DSP delivers excellent results in my room. I have Tubular Bells on SACD and that bass guitar intro is solid on both systems - the 42Hz E string creats no discernable boom.
so 42hzE is the CULPRIT so would it be the root of all my problems
my floor is solid concrete but i have a laminated wooden floor covering ! back to 42hzE I find about 1 min 40 sec into the song it really booms is this why a 100hz crossover works
i am looking in to a new avr around £300 ( on a budget
) my problem room,
 

floyd droid62

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Sep 29, 2016
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hg said:
floyd droid62 said:
hg said:
Are you placing your speakers on the walls either side of the TV?
yes ,the only place free really i have a 50 " t.v on a 11ft wall.
That will drive the axial modes strongly. Does you subwoofer have an adjustable delay knob and a gain knob? If so, we can perform an experiment to greatly reduce one or other of the 40 or 80 Hz axial modes so you can hear if that is the problem. If it has a set of filters we can do both.
it as a variable phase 180 to zero
 

floyd droid62

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Sep 29, 2016
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hg said:
floyd droid62 said:
hg said:
Are you placing your speakers on the walls either side of the TV?
yes ,the only place free really i have a 50 " t.v on a 11ft wall.
That will drive the axial modes strongly. Does you subwoofer have an adjustable delay knob and a gain knob? If so, we can perform an experiment to greatly reduce one or other of the 40 or 80 Hz axial modes so you can hear if that is the problem. If it has a set of filters we can do both.
it as a variable phase 180 to zero do mean purposely phase out a particular frequency by cancellation
 

hg

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Feb 14, 2014
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floyd droid62 said:
it as a variable phase 180 to zero do mean purposely phase out a particular frequency by cancellation
At the crossover frequency, say 80 Hz, the phase of the main speakers and the subwoofer will be different relative to the input signal and significantly so if the main speakers are small and close to the driver and box resonances. In addition, if the distance from the listener to the mains and sub is different this will also change the relative phase. The effects are additive and so a single phase knob can fix both at the crossover frequency. Different frequencies in the crossover region will strictly require a different phase correction but in practise it shouldn't be too far off the one at 80 Hz.

Looking at the picture of your room the speakers appear to be on the long wall with you sitting with your head against the opposite long wall. If the speakers are at 25% and 75% along the wall and you are sitting at 50% along the other wall then the 40 Hz mode will not be heard. You would need to move away from the centre to pick it up. However, the 50 Hz mode will be the worst it is possible to make it and since you are sitting against the wall you will not be able to put a sub behind you.

It is a poor layout but one temporary test you can do to check for how much of a problem the 50 Hz mode is would be to move the couch forward and put the sub behind you (or move the couch out the way and sit on the sub). The mains will be about 10 ms away and the sub about 1-2 ms away requiring about 8 ms of delay to the sub. At 50 Hz one cycle takes 20 ms and so 0-180 degrees gives us 0-10 ms of delay. We need to invert the signal which means adding or subtracting 180 degrees or, more simply, swapping the +ve and -ve leads on the sub or mains. And we need to compensate for whatever the phase difference is between the mains and sub. This might be 40 degrees or more depending on the details of drivers and cabinets. The gain on the sub will need to be lower than normal because it is so close. The high pass filter on the sub needs to be set just above 50 Hz at highest slope (how do you change between sealed and ported slopes?) since it is unlikely to be helping at higher frequencies. You seem to have just about enough flexibility to pull the mode down to a reasonably flat response but it is likely to be very fiddly to do by ear.

PS Brain fade. You can of course put the sub between the mains with a different set of gain and phase settings and achieve close to the same thing.
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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0
hg said:
floyd droid62 said:
it as a variable phase 180 to zero do mean purposely phase out a particular frequency by cancellation
At the crossover frequency, say 80 Hz, the phase of the main speakers and the subwoofer will be different relative to the input signal and significantly so if the main speakers are small and close to the driver and box resonances. In addition, if the distance from the listener to the mains and sub is different this will also change the relative phase. The effects are additive and so a single phase knob can fix both at the crossover frequency. Different frequencies in the crossover region will strictly require a different phase correction but in practise it shouldn't be too far off the one at 80 Hz.

Looking at the picture of your room the speakers appear to be on the long wall with you sitting with your head against the opposite long wall. If the speakers are at 25% and 75% along the wall and you are sitting at 50% along the other wall then the 40 Hz mode will not be heard. You would need to move away from the centre to pick it up. However, the 50 Hz mode will be the worst it is possible to make it and since you are sitting against the wall you will not be able to put a sub behind you.

It is a poor layout but one temporary test you can do to check for how much of a problem the 50 Hz mode is would be to move the couch forward and put the sub behind you (or move the couch out the way and sit on the sub). The mains will be about 10 ms away and the sub about 1-2 ms away requiring about 8 ms of delay to the sub. At 50 Hz one cycle takes 20 ms and so 0-180 degrees gives us 0-10 ms of delay. We need to invert the signal which means adding or subtracting 180 degrees or, more simply, swapping the +ve and -ve leads on the sub or mains. And we need to compensate for whatever the phase difference is between the mains and sub. This might be 40 degrees or more depending on the details of drivers and cabinets. The gain on the sub will need to be lower than normal because it is so close. The high pass filter on the sub needs to be set just above 50 Hz at highest slope (how do you change between sealed and ported slopes?) since it is unlikely to be helping at higher frequencies. You seem to have just about enough flexibility to pull the mode down to a reasonably flat response but it is likely to be very fiddly to do by ear.
these are my old speakers REGRET selling ,but the new ones will be going in that same position ; thank you for your very detailed explanation ,lost me a little but it might sink in
 

Rimse

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Dec 14, 2012
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Have you ever tried moving speaker in oposite deriction of couch, on longer wall.You will get wider distance between speakers,it might result in better sound.That way standounds sounds great
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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Rimse said:
Have you ever tried moving speaker in oposite deriction of couch, on longer wall.You will get wider distance between speakers,it might result in better sound.That way standounds sounds great
yes my wife & i did experiment with the speakers there, and there was a definite improvement on sound ,however it was to much of a compromise as we liked big plasma tv on back wall; and i like my own chair looking longways at the t.v plus sky box &cables ,plugs etc are on back wall, but you can,t have it always
p.s i did try some kefs LS50,s there but to my surprise
they was just as bassy as focal 816V ; obviosly not for films but for music they was ,lovey speaker but i love floorstanders ,so does wife ,we both think you get a much bigger soundstage,with floorstanders
 

Rimse

New member
Dec 14, 2012
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When I had monitor audio rs6 speakers,they sounded best positioned like yours focals,just a bit wider

You can check out these s6 or rx6
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
151
87
18,670
Hi,

Not sure if this has been suggested - i have not read all the posts - but you have a hard wood floor - and this will certainly reflect sounds a lot.

My next door neighbour has three dogs - all small and when they all start squealing, yapping, etc at the same time - the volume is very loud and it is as if they are in my front room.

So, maybe rugs on the floor, or carpet - to dampen any modes or reflections.

My down subwoofer is downfacing - s maybe place a rug under that to absorp reflections.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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shadders said:
Hi,

Not sure if this has been suggested - i have not read all the posts - but you have a hard wood floor - and this will certainly reflect sounds a lot.

My next door neighbour has three dogs - all small and when they all start squealing, yapping, etc at the same time - the volume is very loud and it is as if they are in my front room.

So, maybe rugs on the floor, or carpet - to dampen any modes or reflections.

My down subwoofer is downfacing - s maybe place a rug under that to absorp reflections.

Regards,

Shadders.
a large rug is on it,s way, told the wife it will make it more cosy
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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Rimse said:
When I had monitor audio rs6 speakers,they sounded best positioned like yours focals,just a bit wider

You can check out these s6 or rx6
nice in gloss black RX6 but £1100 DALI Zensor 7 lot cheaper
 

BigH

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Dec 29, 2012
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I have that tv stand. Those speakers look far too close together unless you are siting about 5 feet away.

What size room is it?
 

thewinelake.

New member
Jan 22, 2016
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I can't even see the speakers!

Agree with shadders (for once ;-) ) about the carpet. Would also try to put something on the wall to absorb sound. Maybe it's possible to get art that conceals a form of bass trap. A fabric hanging or canvas would be ideal. If you could frame it and rig up some kind of panel with rockwool inside.

I have a room far worse than this. The only answer is headphones. Or a shed. Actually, the shed is the only answer. Even if I had lovely sound in my main room, the Mrs would tell me to turn it down....

PS - open the pic in another tab to get correct aspect ratio - or put in smaller width dimension when posting the image. This stupid forum software buggers the up otherwise.
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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floyd droid62 said:
thewinelake. said:
I can't even see the speakers!

Agree with shadders (for once ;-) ) about the carpet. Would also try to put something on the wall to absorb sound. Maybe it's possible to get art that conceals a form of bass trap. A fabric hanging or canvas would be ideal. If you could frame it and rig up some kind of panel with rockwool inside.

I have a room far worse than this. The only answer is headphones. Or a shed. Actually, the shed is the only answer. Even if I had lovely sound in my main room, the Mrs would tell me to turn it down....

PS - open the pic in another tab to get correct aspect ratio - or put in smaller width dimension when posting the image. This stupid forum software buggers the up otherwise.
sorry wrong pic! my first speakers regret selling they sounded ok with a crossover,we live & learn*smile*
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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thewinelake. said:
I can't even see the speakers!

Agree with shadders (for once ;-) ) about the carpet. Would also try to put something on the wall to absorb sound. Maybe it's possible to get art that conceals a form of bass trap. A fabric hanging or canvas would be ideal. If you could frame it and rig up some kind of panel with rockwool inside.

I have a room far worse than this. The only answer is headphones. Or a shed. Actually, the shed is the only answer. Even if I had lovely sound in my main room, the Mrs would tell me to turn it down....

PS - open the pic in another tab to get correct aspect ratio - or put in smaller width dimension when posting the image. This stupid forum software buggers the up otherwise.
sorry wrong pic! my first speakers
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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BigH said:
I have that tv stand. Those speakers look far too close together unless you are siting about 5 feet away.

What size room is it?
14ft x 11ft t.v 50" the bk monolith subwoofer lives in top left corner ,the image does make the room look more narrow i sit about 10ft away those was my old speakers i sold regretably , got new stand
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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thewinelake. said:
I can't even see the speakers!

Agree with shadders (for once ;-) ) about the carpet. Would also try to put something on the wall to absorb sound. Maybe it's possible to get art that conceals a form of bass trap. A fabric hanging or canvas would be ideal. If you could frame it and rig up some kind of panel with rockwool inside.

I have a room far worse than this. The only answer is headphones. Or a shed. Actually, the shed is the only answer. Even if I had lovely sound in my main room, the Mrs would tell me to turn it down....

PS - open the pic in another tab to get correct aspect ratio - or put in smaller width dimension when posting the image. This stupid forum software buggers the up otherwise.
it was this pic!
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
7
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0
thewinelake. said:
I can't even see the speakers!

Agree with shadders (for once ;-) ) about the carpet. Would also try to put something on the wall to absorb sound. Maybe it's possible to get art that conceals a form of bass trap. A fabric hanging or canvas would be ideal. If you could frame it and rig up some kind of panel with rockwool inside.

I have a room far worse than this. The only answer is headphones. Or a shed. Actually, the shed is the only answer. Even if I had lovely sound in my main room, the Mrs would tell me to turn it down....

PS - open the pic in another tab to get correct aspect ratio - or put in smaller width dimension when posting the image. This stupid forum software buggers the up otherwise.
sorry i made a mistake on posting pictures*smile*
 

thewinelake.

New member
Jan 22, 2016
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Mmm. I'm not surprised you have troubles. Carpet the floor and walls! I was wondering if you might be able to put something to break up the unremitting flatness of that wall. Maybe experiment with nailing a duvet or two to it ;-)

There must be a market for sound absorbing or dispersing art.
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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thewinelake. said:
Mmm. I'm not surprised you have troubles. Carpet the floor and walls! I was wondering if you might be able to put something to break up the unremitting flatness of that wall. Maybe experiment with nailing a duvet or two to it ;-)

There must be a market for sound absorbing or dispersing art.
there will be alot more canvas prints going on the walls plus rugs ,than i am geting the dali zensor 3 ,new avr & use bass management, than sit back & enjoy music*music2**biggrin* hopefully!!!
 

lpv

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Mar 14, 2013
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I would be careful with zensor 3s.. I had them before and these are boxy sounding, recessed midrange and average stereo image.. not very good speakers imo.. I had them with marantz pm6004, mcr510 and electrocompaniet 5 ( bought this amp for my next pair of speakers atc scm11s).. any yamaha hs series speaker is better than above combination.. I only mentioned yamaha as I had them right after zensors
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
740
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5,270
lpv said:
I would be careful with zensor 3s.. I had them before and these are boxy sounding, recessed midrange and average stereo image.. not very good speakers imo.. I had them with marantz pm6004, mcr510 and electrocompaniet 5 ( bought this amp for my next pair of speakers atc scm11s).. any yamaha hs series speaker is better than above combination.. I only mentioned yamaha as I had them right after zensors
In their defense ;) Zensor 3 didn't sound good to me either with new Marantz gear. I thought they were rather poor until I heard them with Onkyo A9010. Completely different speaker, very enjoyable. They paired really well none of the issues you describe. Other good pairings are Arcam, Cambridge Audio and Yamaha not heard others. Also heard it with an old Marantz PM66SE and they sounded fine.

If anything it put me off of new Marantz gear and not Dalis
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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lpv said:
I would be careful with zensor 3s.. I had them before and these are boxy sounding, recessed midrange and average stereo image.. not very good speakers imo.. I had them with marantz pm6004, mcr510 and electrocompaniet 5 ( bought this amp for my next pair of speakers atc scm11s).. any yamaha hs series speaker is better than above combination.. I only mentioned yamaha as I had them right after zensors

[/quote change of mind! i will save a little ,and get something a little better,around £500!
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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*smile*
insider9 said:
lpv said:
I would be careful with zensor 3s.. I had them before and these are boxy sounding, recessed midrange and average stereo image.. not very good speakers imo.. I had them with marantz pm6004, mcr510 and electrocompaniet 5 ( bought this amp for my next pair of speakers atc scm11s).. any yamaha hs series speaker is better than above combination.. I only mentioned yamaha as I had them right after zensors
In their defense ;) Zensor 3 didn't sound good to me either with new Marantz gear. I thought they were rather poor until I heard them with Onkyo A9010. Completely different speaker, very enjoyable. They paired really well none of the issues you describe. Other good pairings are Arcam, Cambridge Audio and Yamaha not heard others. Also heard it with an old Marantz PM66SE and they sounded fine.

If anything it put me off of new Marantz gear and not Dalis
after careful consideration,room ,i am getting the ATC scm 7 *smile*
 

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