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expensive mistake

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floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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chebby said:
floyd droid62 said:
... yes they are expensive, Even i am having 2nd thoughts,£810 is a lot of money for me!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATC-SCM-7-/262680750214?hash=item3d28fe2886:g:N7YAAOSw8gVYAkPl

,,, these are £215 less.

Try them out and sell them on if you don't get on with them. You'll lose little or nothing compared to buying new.
*smile* i was thinking as i am getting ps4 .4k telly, blu ray player in the near future ! i will need a AVR, so being cost-effective,i am getting the dali Zensor 3( and join the dali Zensor 3 owners club*drinks*) &, new AVR .Use bass management to the bk monolith(with antimode). for bass issues! thank you for the link*smile*,but I will keep saving,and thinking
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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lpv said:
in fact, you can get second hand AVI 9 for even less than £700 in a top condition...

AVI controled, lean bass and 'no boom' character is a system that could work really well in Floyds difficult room..
I agree, £100 for ATC 7's (plus good, inexpensive amplification) would represent good value for money for Floyd and his room.

£500 to £600 for AVI 9's would also be good value for money for Floyd and his room.

£600 to £700 for AVI DM10's would be good value for money for Floyd and his room.
 

luckylion100

New member
Nov 6, 2011
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lpv said:
in fact, you can get second hand AVI 9 for even less than £700 in a top condition...

AVI controled, lean bass and 'no boom' character is a system that could work really well in Floyds difficult room..
Everyone knows that AVI are overpriced sh*te! ;-)
 

luckylion100

New member
Nov 6, 2011
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lindsayt said:
avole said:
Your ears apply to you only lindsay - does the T stand for Trump? - others hear things differently and have different opinions. Get used to it . You can start by standing in front of a mirror every night and repeating "I am not God" until it sinks in :)
Avole, YOUR AD HOMINEM ATTACK ON ME IS QUITE NASTY.
but Lindsayt I've seen many of your posts on other forum sites and many of them are either about individuals here or the What H--Fi forum in general and they are belittling, condescending and patronsiing at times... Giving you the benefit of the doubt I blame the company you keep elsewhere. ;-)
 

thewinelake.

New member
Jan 22, 2016
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AVI or other similarly highly damped speakers might be worth a try. Shrewsbury's not a million miles from AVIland.
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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i seem to get a lot of advice to try active speakers, i know nothing about active speakers,except they have there own amp; built in, but would active speakers still boom,like normal speakers,and the built in amp ! Would this be less quality than a stand alone amp*scratch_one-s_head*
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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luckylion100 said:
lindsayt said:
avole said:
Your ears apply to you only lindsay - does the T stand for Trump? - others hear things differently and have different opinions. Get used to it . You can start by standing in front of a mirror every night and repeating "I am not God" until it sinks in :)
Avole, YOUR AD HOMINEM ATTACK ON ME IS QUITE NASTY.
but Lindsayt I've seen many of your posts on other forum sites and many of them are either about individuals here or the What H--Fi forum in general and they are belittling, condescending and patronsiing at times... Giving you the benefit of the doubt I blame the company you keep elsewhere. ;-)
And now you, luckylion have made a quite nasty ad hominem attack on me.

Can you please restrict your comments about me to what I have actually said here in this thread?

IE play the ball and not the man.

If you would like to make any sort of comment about anything I have said on any forum, please do so on the forum and in the thread in which I have said it.

Your comment here, in this thread is just a general ad hominem attack on me that leaves me with no room to refute what you've said as I have no idea specifically what you are referring to. And I think it would be way off topic for you start quoting things that I may said elsewhere with a view to discussing them here.

I would be quite happy to have an adult, open and frank discussion with you about anything I have said - ON THE FORUM ON WHICH I HAVE SAID IT.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
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floyd droid62 said:
i seem to get a lot of advice to try active speakers, i know nothing about active speakers,except they have there own amp; built in, but would active speakers still boom,like normal speakers,and the built in amp ! Would this be less quality than a stand alone amp*scratch_one-s_head*
Generally speaking, true active designs will have a direct connection from the amplifier to the relevant drive units, no passive components in the way so no 'insertion loss' or reduced 'damping factor'. Furthermore the amplifier can be optimised for the drive unit in question, often a substantial cost benefit.

There are different opinions as to just how important these 'advantages' are but in my experience, good active designs are better controlled at low frequencies than most price competitive passive systems. If your speaker positioning is less than optimal, for domestic reasons perhaps, this can be a distinct advantage. Some models also have 'bass shelving' controls, allowing a degree of correction for speaker positioning with respect to room boundaries.

A lot of active models are built for the pro and home studio market, AVI and Dynaudio being the obvious exceptions. Many pro models tend to be quite sophisticated, but can look a bit 'industrial', though there are some exceptions.

If you have a troublesome room, where heavy treatment is not acceptable, there are some active models that allow for comprehensive in-room eq, similar in some respects to the Antimode system mostly used on subwoofers. Take a look at the Genelec 'SAM' systems, at present you can get the 8330 AWM package, including microphone, connection hardware and software, for under £1500.
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,232
4
19,195
Time to drag out a picture of an active system again ...



... the first thing it demonstrates (to me anyway) is that the active system 'topology' does not just mean 'amplifiers in the speaker cabinets'.

There are plenty of 'powered' speakers that are not active at all, but have a completely passive system (pre-amp/DAC, amplifier, conventional passive crossovers and drivers), encased within the speaker cabinets. It doesn't stop a lot of these companies claiming 'active' status for their passive products in their marketing. Nothing can be done about this it seems and most people don't really care enough unfortunately. (But it does cause confusion when even some hi-fi magazine writers don't distinguish between these fundamentally different set-ups any more.)

Going back to the diagram it shows the more 'traditional' active set-up where the pre-amp, electronic crossovers/filters, power amps and drivers are all in separate boxes. Only a few manufacturers (Meridian M1. (The BBC had also been using true active topology with their LS5/8 monitors bi-amping with Quad - and later Chord - power amps and proprietary electronic filter cards.)
 

avole

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Jul 15, 2016
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floyd droid62 said:
i seem to get a lot of advice to try active speakers, i know nothing about active speakers,except they have there own amp; built in, but would active speakers still boom,like normal speakers,and the built in amp ! Would this be less quality than a stand alone amp*scratch_one-s_head*
The short answer is yes, they will boom, depending on their cabinet design. If they are rear- ported they shouldn't be placed near to a wall, and the same is true for front ported, but to a lesser extent. Infinite baffle speakers, which don't have any ports, are usually better closer to walls than other designs.

If active speakers include DSP, then it is possibly to set their characteristics so they can be placed next to walls. Dynaudio, B&O, Devialet amongst others have that. AVI do not, because they're older designs which have not been updated, and the same is true of many other speakers.

Don't be fooled by the avalanche of AVI selling on this forum. Passive speakers do not necessarily boom at all, that's a myth perpetrated from the early days of HiFi when cheap speakers were knocked out with little thought for design. The only caveat is that you need to match amplifier characteristics with passive speakers quite closely. With active speakers the amps can be matched more closely, which is a plus, but the downside is you don't know the quality of the amp. Note that the majority of active speakers are studio monitors designed for near-field listening, and most, unless you like sound not that far removed from fingernails on chalkboard, do not sound that great.

Also, don't forget by far the majority of HiFi systems of high quality remain with traditional components. The view is skewed on WHF because the AVI owners push their products on here, whereas, on other forums, they are simply ignored or banned. The latter is not necessarily their fault, by the way, it was the Sales Manager who initially garnered the bad reputation by using only the forums to sell his products.

A final point: in a blind test, even the biggest fan of legacy active speakers would not be possible to pick them from a passive design of similar quality.
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,232
4
19,195
avole said:
The short answer is yes, they will boom, depending on their cabinet design. If they are rear- ported they shouldn't be placed near to a wall, and the same is true for front ported, but to a lesser extent. Infinite baffle speakers, which don't have any ports, are usually better closer to walls than other designs.
That's not necessarily always true. There are many rear-ported reflex designs that perform excellently against a wall* and even in corners. I own one such example of speakers that are designed to have optimum performance in such a position :) (No 'boom' at all.)

* in reality speaker cables (plus their connectors) and skirting boards - and even stands - means there is a gap of a few inches between the wall and the cabinet and this is enough if the cabinet is designed as such. Equally I have seen manufacturers of some sealed cabinet designs recommend at least half a metre gap to the wall and even more distance from corners.
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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thank you; Avole for your detailed answer,active speaker might be bettter in some ways ,but i like passive,nice big amp on a rack etc.*smile*i do have a problem with speakers booming*diablo* but it is my room size, so that is why i might try the atc scm 7,s or do what i did before and use bass management,as i always did until my avr broke,so i got a stereo amp thinking i could play bookcase full range*wacko* mistake!,i think the atc,s will boom ,because i tried some focal 705,s ,& they droned a little,speakers hate my room*sad*,so i keep thinking £300 bookcase & crossover,like the dali Zensor 3.
 

lpv

New member
Mar 14, 2013
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floyd droid62 said:
thank you; Avole for your detailed answer,active speaker might be bettter in some ways ,but i like passive,nice big amp on a rack etc.*smile*i do have a problem with speakers booming*diablo* but it is my room size, so that is why i might try the atc scm 7,s or do what i did before and use bass management,as i always did until my avr broke,so i got a stereo amp thinking i could play bookcase full range*wacko* mistake!,i think the atc,s will boom ,because i tried some focal 705,s ,& they droned a little,speakers hate my room*sad*,so i keep thinking £300 bookcase & crossover,like the dali Zensor 3.
floyd, it was all sort of upside down, backward and misleading c.r.a.p. and there's nothing to thank for.. mr vole is a french rodent and his views are heavily influenced by the fact that this creatures spend their lives underground eating c.r.a.p. and it's a miracle he was able to sign up on any internet forum as 99% of the time there's no wifi in his natural surroundings..

btw, I can't see o this drawing any room for loudspeakers.

 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
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floyd droid62 said:
thank you; Avole for your detailed answer,active speaker might be bettter in some ways ,but i like passive,nice big amp on a rack etc.*smile*i do have a problem with speakers booming*diablo* but it is my room size, so that is why i might try the atc scm 7,s or do what i did before and use bass management,as i always did until my avr broke,so i got a stereo amp thinking i could play bookcase full range*wacko* mistake!,i think the atc,s will boom ,because i tried some focal 705,s ,& they droned a little,speakers hate my room*sad*,so i keep thinking £300 bookcase & crossover,like the dali Zensor 3.
You are aware that "setting up the same type of system time and time again and expecting different results" is close to Einstein's definition of insanity?

If your room really is that bad, then either you need extensive room treatment or sophistcated eq.

Not remotely 'traditional' but if I had similar issues, I would be looking at these...



Genelec 8330 APM with all the hardware and software for sophisticated room/speaker eq.

If you look around it can be had for less than £1500 complete.
 

Native_bon

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2008
180
2
18,595
davedotco said:
floyd droid62 said:
thank you; Avole for your detailed answer,active speaker might be bettter in some ways ,but i like passive,nice big amp on a rack etc.*smile*i do have a problem with speakers booming*diablo* but it is my room size, so that is why i might try the atc scm 7,s or do what i did before and use bass management,as i always did until my avr broke,so i got a stereo amp thinking i could play bookcase full range*wacko* mistake!,i think the atc,s will boom ,because i tried some focal 705,s ,& they droned a little,speakers hate my room*sad*,so i keep thinking £300 bookcase & crossover,like the dali Zensor 3.
You are aware that "setting up the same type of system time and time again and expecting different results" is close to Einstein's definition of insanity?

If your room really is that bad, then either you need extensive room treatment or sophistcated eq.

Not remotely 'traditional' but if I had similar issues, I would be looking at these...

Genelec 8330 APM with all the hardware and software for sophisticated room/speaker eq.

If you look around it can be had for less than £1500 complete.
I think this is the best unbiased advice so far. If you really need to cure the problem best to do it the right way once & for all. Most of all the actives I have come across in music studios, the Genelec models happen to be top of my list for SQ.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
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lpv said:
does SAM works only with Genelec speakers?
It is a proprietory system that allows your computer to manipulate the various levels of eq built into the active speaker.

In theory this technology could be built into an external device to pair with any amp/speaker combination, active or passive, there is a similar but less sophisticated setup in some of the Steinway Lingdorf products but not at anything like comparable prices.

The nearest affordable option is probably a dual core Anti-Mode 2.0, which can be used in a stereo or 2.1 system though I have only ever seen it used as a bass management system
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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i do like the sound of the dual core antimode,but out of my budget,the other system sounds good but ,it should at £1500*shok*
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
7
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0
i have not set up the same system time after time,my first speakers was; b&w cm7,s that worked fine with a crossover (90HZ), but my AVR broke so i thought bookcase would work full range on a stereo amp, big mistake. i have yet to try a bookcase with bass management as i have no avr! but i was surprised even a small speaker like the Focal chorus 705 still droned a little.(on CXA60) however i know any bookcase will work with a crossover as my floorstanders did(on marantz SR 6006) . but i do agree the speakers in your picture would work in my room*smile*
 

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