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expensive mistake

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
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hi long time reader so i thought i would join ,[ ignore bad spellings not my forte] My love of hifi came about by coming across some b&w cm7 black gloss speakers,but after spending a small fortune on different speakers amps and subs i have learnt one very expensive lession," you listen to your room not your speakers." the room in question is a 14ft x11ft acoustical hell hole.my advice to anybody thinking about buying speakers ,floor standing or bookcase to listen to them in your room. i did NOT,, so lost a lot of money trying to achieve the impossible great bass in a small room. i have owned B&W cm7 FOCAL CHORUS 816v KEF LS50 SONUS FABER chameleon B FOCAL CHORUS 705v .all of these speakers sounded horrendous played full range in my room .UNLESS *smile*crossed over to subwoofer with anti mode,I have no speakers as i am saving up for that; great bargin buy,what ever that might be!*smile* update;

I am now buying a AVR as going to use bass management with bookcase speakers
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
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0
floyd droid62 said:
hi long time reader so i thought i would join ,[ ignore bad spellings not my forte] My love of hifi came about by coming across some b&w cm7 black gloss speakers,but after spending a small fortune on different speakers amps and subs i have learnt one very expensive lession," you listen to your room not your speakers." the room in question is a 14ft x11ft acoustical hell hole.my advice to anybody thinking about buying speakers ,floor standing or bookcase to listen to them in your room. i did NOT,, so lost a lot of money trying to achieve the impossible great bass in a small room. without room treatment or room EQ, like DIRAC speakers will sound a muddy droney mess a can not emphasize this enough i have owned B&W cm7 FOCAL CHORUS 816v KEF LS50 SONUS FABER chameleon B FOCAL CHORUS 705v .all of these speakers sounded horrendous played full range in my room .ONLY the b&w cm7 s fully bunged sounded ok with a 100hz crossover,but the sub did not until i got a anti-mode 8033c,better but not great ,i traded the cm7 for focal 816v thinking being front & bottom ported would sound better but it never. unfortunately my avr broke so i went down the stereo amp bookcase route ,but at a cost,of realizing bookcase cant play full range in my room,at the moment i have a cxa60 amp marantz cd player bk monolith ,but no speakers as i am getting a avr for bass managemant,in hindsight i should have kept the kefs an d got a new avr ,but never knew that at the time .hope this helps someone thinking about speaker in a small room
I went through a similar experience about 8 years ago - people often say on here change speakers to change the sound - I didnt find that to be true at all. Different speaker of similar category (2 way design) in the same spot in my room sounded very similar and exhibited the same bass problems as the one before.

Changing boxes and cables etc will never fix fundamental problems like that - and fixing them is the first key to audio nirvana - not just changes boxes

Fundamentals first - expensive cables and boxes next - Then Audio Nirvana at last
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
7
0
0
l agree said:
hi long time reader so i thought i would join ,[ ignore bad spellings not my forte] My love of hifi came about by coming across some b&w cm7 black gloss speakers,but after spending a small fortune on different speakers amps and subs i have learnt one very expensive lession," you listen to your room not your speakers." the room in question is a 14ft x11ft acoustical hell hole.my advice to anybody thinking about buying speakers ,floor standing or bookcase to listen to them in your room. i did NOT,, so lost a lot of money trying to achieve the impossible great bass in a small room. without room treatment or room EQ, like DIRAC speakers will sound a muddy droney mess a can not emphasize this enough i have owned B&W cm7 FOCAL CHORUS 816v KEF LS50 SONUS FABER chameleon B FOCAL CHORUS 705v .all of these speakers sounded horrendous played full range in my room .ONLY the b&w cm7 s fully bunged sounded ok with a 100hz crossover,but the sub did not until i got a anti-mode 8033c,better but not great ,i traded the cm7 for focal 816v thinking being front & bottom ported would sound better but it never. unfortunately my avr broke so i went down the stereo amp bookcase route ,but at a cost,of realizing bookcase cant play full range in my room,at the moment i have a cxa60 amp marantz cd player bk monolith ,but no speakers as i am getting a avr for bass managemant,in hindsight i should have kept the kefs an d got a new avr ,but never knew that at the time .hope this helps someone thinking about speaker in a small room
I went through a similar experience about 8 years ago - people often say on here change speakers to change the sound - I didnt find that to be true at all. Different speaker of similar category (2 way design) in the same spot in my room sounded very similar and exhibited the same bass problems as the one before.

Changing boxes and cables etc will never fix fundamental problems like that - and fixing them is the first key to audio nirvana - not just changes boxes

Fundamentals first - expensive cables and boxes next - Then Audio Nirvana at last

[/quote] totally agree but expensive cables, especially digital are just a waste of money
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
289
77
10,970
What's your current setup ? Did you buy any of the speakers that you had blind or the amps that you have had ?

Because it's important to demo and try these things at home as well .

some dealers will do sale on returns if you are not happy

Also not all speakers will match in with what ever amp that you have tried some amps are better at managing and controlling the bass better then others

speakers design can play apart too quality of the speakers . It sounds to me that your not a bass fan then maybe choose a speakers that's not heavy on bass like Dali 1 s . Yes your room does play apart in your sound but none of us live in a recording studio or a room where it has very expensive room treatment .

most of us live in a normal household where the hifi is not the center of attention and we just want to listen to music .

if you get all of the hifi links right i.e. Speakers , amp , CD player , streaming then you will get a very good hifi setup and sound . But I myself have wasted money on trying to get it right I've got there now but it's taken time and money and no my room is not treated but I still do get good sound quality with no boom on the bass and I do not have to use a sub because my amp managers the bass control properly and my speakers are good quality .
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
144
13
4,595
floyd droid62 said:
hi long time reader so i thought i would join ,[ ignore bad spellings not my forte] My love of hifi came about by coming across some b&w cm7 black gloss speakers,but after spending a small fortune on different speakers amps and subs i have learnt one very expensive lession," you listen to your room not your speakers." the room in question is a 14ft x11ft acoustical hell hole.my advice to anybody thinking about buying speakers ,floor standing or bookcase to listen to them in your room. i did NOT,, so lost a lot of money trying to achieve the impossible great bass in a small room. without room treatment or room EQ, like DIRAC speakers will sound a muddy droney mess a can not emphasize this enough i have owned B&W cm7 FOCAL CHORUS 816v KEF LS50 SONUS FABER chameleon B FOCAL CHORUS 705v .all of these speakers sounded horrendous played full range in my room .ONLY the b&w cm7 s fully bunged sounded ok with a 100hz crossover,but the sub did not until i got a anti-mode 8033c,better but not great ,i traded the cm7 for focal 816v thinking being front & bottom ported would sound better but it never. unfortunately my avr broke so i went down the stereo amp bookcase route ,but at a cost,of realizing bookcase cant play full range in my room,at the moment i have a cxa60 amp marantz cd player bk monolith ,but no speakers as i am getting a avr for bass managemant,in hindsight i should have kept the kefs an d got a new avr ,but never knew that at the time .hope this helps someone thinking about speaker in a small room
All wrong. The speakers choice was wrong in the first place. One does not need any EQ, once the speakers suit your taste. The room does not matter at all unless you live in a palace and place in it two small bookshelves. You bought incorrect speakers to your taste !
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
7
0
0
Blacksabbath25 said:
What's your current setup ? Did you buy any of the speakers that you had blind or the amps that you have had ?

Because it's important to demo and try these things at home as well .

some dealers will do sale on returns if you are not happy

Also not all speakers will match in with what ever amp that you have tried some amps are better at managing and controlling the bass better then others

speakers design can play apart too quality of the speakers . It sounds to me that your not a bass fan then maybe choose a speakers that's not heavy on bass like Dali 1 s . Yes your room does play apart in your sound but none of us live in a recording studio or a room where it has very expensive room treatment .

most of us live in a normal household where the hifi is not the center of attention and we just want to listen to music .

if you get all of the hifi links right i.e. Speakers , amp , CD player , streaming then you will get a very good hifi setup and sound . But I myself have wasted money on trying to get it right I've got there now but it's taken time and money and no my room is not treated but I still do get good sound quality with no boom on the bass and I do not have to use a sub because my amp managers the bass control properly and my speakers are good quality .
bass i love bass i have a bk monolith with antimode 8033C ! in my youth black sabbath AC/DC biker pubs were my life but tight unflabby controlled bass, not a muddy droneing mess.At the moment apart from the sub i have a CXA60 amp marantz cd player no speakers yet as i am waiting to get a AVR for bass management,like a fool i did buy blind but thinking it was the speakers kept tradeing in at a loss! my room is 14ft x 11ft a floorstanding speaker in my room must have a 100hz crossover or it will sound a horrendous droneing muddy mess and to my dismay so do standmounts
[ sold floorstander to get bookcase with stereo amp] NOT BASSY but droney imagine a church organ in a small tiled bathroom.the subwoofer is not bad at some music take the heartbeat from pink floyds DSOTM, this sub CAN do 15hz the whole house will pulsate sumblime,however chart music is another story.i know where i went wrong playing full range from a new stereo amp instead of replacing my AVR hence expensive mistake and yes i do live in a normal hosehold and want to listen to music without the wife saying that sounds S**T
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
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0
stereoman said:
The room does not matter at all unless you live in a palace and place in it two small bookshelves. You bought incorrect speakers to your taste !
You must be smoking something very strong to think that. Keep it away from me
Or have never measured the freq response of speakers in a room.

That is completely wrong. The room matters more than everything. It shapes your sound completely and utterly destroys it
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
144
13
4,595
ellisdj said:
stereoman said:
The room does not matter at all unless you live in a palace and place in it two small bookshelves. You bought incorrect speakers to your taste !
You must be smoking something very strong to think that. Keep it away from me Or have never measured the freq response of speakers in a room.

That is completely wrong. The room matters more than everything. It shapes your sound completely and utterly destroys it
You keep it away from me - I never heard about any serious buyer who would give up their favourite speaker purchase because of their room. You must be kidding. The speakers can acoustically respond a bit worse but if they hit your taste and are good enough there is no way you will not be happy with them. I listened to my fav speakers in a few different rooms - they always sounded and sound good. Room acoustics changed it only slightly never to the point of disliking them.
 

drummerman

New member
Jan 18, 2008
540
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0
Gazzip said:
drummerman said:
floyd droid62 said:
agree ,i am finding the way this forum is working at the moment very confusing
Ah yes, sorry about that
So who won the bake-off?
No idea. The thread got more off-topic as it progressed. (bit like this one. Apologies to the OP, I will keep schtumm after this)

I gave up after a while :)
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
7
0
0
stereoman said:
ellisdj said:
stereoman said:
The room does not matter at all unless you live in a palace and place in it two small bookshelves. You bought incorrect speakers to your taste !
You must be smoking something very strong to think that. Keep it away from me Or have never measured the freq response of speakers in a room.

That is completely wrong. The room matters more than everything. It shapes your sound completely and utterly destroys it
You keep it away from me - I never heard about any serious buyer who would give up their favourite speaker purchase because of their room. You must be kidding. The speakers can acoustically respond a bit worse but if they hit your taste and are good enough there is no way you will not be happy with them. I listened to my fav speakers in a few different rooms - they always sounded and sound good. Room acoustics changed it only slightly never to the point of disliking them.
my room as 40hz 50hz 60hz 80hz and 100hz peaks combined with the small sized room makes any speaker played full range bad you can not argue with the Laws of pysics ,that is why abbey rd recording studio has room treatment
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
7
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0
ellisdj said:
Would you say 20db peaks and nulls is a bit worse or a lot worse? It could be more than that as well.

Thats without excessive reverberation time and all other problems rooms cause like comb filtering.

Its not about turning away from your favourite speakers, its about being realistic and undertanding the room is shaping their response to be nothing like how they was designed. So you are hearing them not near as good as you should be - ££££ down the drain really if you have bought more exotic designs

Its a true hard fact of sound in every room, especially small rooms.

Maybe some people accept that as ok - thats up to them - but it doesnt change the fact thats its happening to everyone in every room. Keep on the pipe
arrr somebody with some commonsence at last . what is the average age of the people of this forum!
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
Would you say 20db peaks and nulls is a bit worse or a lot worse? It could be more than that as well.

Thats without excessive reverberation time and all other problems rooms cause like comb filtering.

Its not about turning away from your favourite speakers, its about being realistic and undertanding the room is shaping their response to be nothing like how they was designed. So you are hearing them not near as good as you should be - ££££ down the drain really if you have bought more exotic designs

Its a true hard fact of sound in every room, especially small rooms.

Maybe some people accept that as ok - thats up to them - but it doesnt change the fact thats its happening to everyone in every room. Keep on the pipe (meant as banter)
 

hg

New member
Feb 14, 2014
0
0
0
floyd droid62 said:
my room as 40hz 50hz 60hz 80hz and 100hz peaks combined with the small sized room makes any speaker played full range bad you can not argue with the Laws of pysics ,that is why abbey rd recording studio has room treatment
Distributed subs will fix the response of a small room below 100 Hz just as well as a large room although they will take up a larger proportion of space. A single monster sub is not a good idea.

The room response above 100 Hz in a small room is a bigger problem to fix. Full passive room treatment that is effective down to 100 Hz is physically large and almost certainly too intrusive in normal domestic rooms. However, there are a few things that can be done:

- non-monopole speakers like dipoles and cardioids will drive fewer of the room modes strongly and will almost certainly be a substantial step in the right direction.

- some passive room treatment targetted at the modes associated with largest dips in the room response.

- some parametric equalisation targetted at bringing down the largest peaks.

Above about 500 Hz the small room response will be more smoothly reverberant but given the loud early reflections and the inevitable close proximity of large objects speakers with a controlled narrow beam that minimise early strong reflections are likely to be preferable. So not a tweeter and a midwoofer in a small box.
 

floyd droid62

New member
Sep 29, 2016
7
0
0
hg said:
floyd droid62 said:
my room as 40hz 50hz 60hz 80hz and 100hz peaks combined with the small sized room makes any speaker played full range bad you can not argue with the Laws of pysics ,that is why abbey rd recording studio has room treatment
Distributed subs will fix the response of a small room below 100 Hz just as well as a large room although they will take up a larger proportion of space. A single monster sub is not a good idea.

The room response above 100 Hz in a small room is a bigger problem to fix. Full passive room treatment that is effective down to 100 Hz is physically large and almost certainly too intrusive in normal domestic rooms. However, there are a few things that can be done:

- non-monopole speakers like dipoles and cardioids will drive fewer of the room modes strongly and will almost certainly be a substantial step in the right direction.

- some passive room treatment targetted at the modes associated with largest dips in the room response.

- some parametric equalisation targetted at bringing down the largest peaks.

Above about 500 Hz the small room response will be more smoothly reverberant but given the loud early reflections and the inevitable close proximity of large objects speakers with a controlled narrow beam that minimise early strong reflections are likely to be preferable. So not a tweeter and a midwoofer in a small box.
but why did the focal chorus 705v drone on certain bass notes ,focals own web site said it was suitable for rooms up to 15sq meters i only got the damn small thing to see if the drone went. yes i played it full range as i only had a stereo amp but it only was 65hz at -3db not exactly a mission mx6 ! i know for a fact is is my room may be it is the wooden floor may be it is that i got 2 doors who knows ! but only a 100hz crossover solves it 'so it must be bass modes booming that is why i am getting a AVR to crossover to the sub that as a antimode 8033C i know two subs are better four subs even better but that is more money
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
I think stop now - stop the guess work.

Invest in a UMIK1 and REW which is free - learn to measure yours room freq response - remove the guess work - fix the problem.

In the interim put your rooms dimensions into REW Sim and it will give you a pretty accurate reading of the problem
 

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