Electrostatics: brilliant answer or impractical solution.

CnoEvil

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A remark on another thread got me thinking, as it was suggested that Electrostatics, either hybrid or pure, would "wipe the floor" with conventional "box" speakers.

I'm interested in getting opinions from those who have either heard or owned/own them, as I've never had the pleasure. This is purely academic as nobody stocks them where I live.

When I think of Electrostatics, I think of 2 x 6' trellis (up which you could grow a Clematis) in your living room.

They have to be at least 6' away from the wall behind them (as sound not confined), and are very picky about the way they are set up. They need lots of power from from well partnered, expensive ancillaries. Also, due to the beamed nature of the sound, have a very small sweetspot, which can sometimes be no further back, than the speakers are appart.

To get decent bass they have to be very tall, or amalgamated with a sub (which can give intergration problems), and I have no idea how they would work with AV.

By their nature they are often expensive (though Maggies appear to give good value), and may be much better with certain types of music than with others.

Is this a speaker that only works for classical music loving rich bachelors, who live in converted warehouses, and are not interested in AV?......or are we all missing out?
 

Ajani

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Just a few points:

Maggies are not electrostats. though they are similar in appearance and generally appeal to the same crowd.

Like with most things in audio, you really need to hear planar speakers for yourself to determine if the sound is for you... I really liked the sound of Final Sound full range (and I use the term 'full range' very loosely) Electrostats, wasn't very impressed with Martin Logan hybrid electrostats and flat out detested the sound of Magnepan MG12 planars... So to each his own...
 

CnoEvil

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Since I'm only going on what I've read in reviews, and that includes everything written in my thread, I was looking for personal experiences rather than more reading.

This is not meant as an attack on this type of speaker, but rather a chance for reasoned debate, as I'm genuinely interested in getting peoples' views.
 

matthewpiano

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I have a friend who absolutely swears by a pair of MMGs driven by Quad 44/405 amplification. He says they are the most realistic sounding speakers he has ever heard. Sadly I've not heard them because he has them in storage back home in New Zealand while he is over here in the UK.
 

CnoEvil

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matthewpiano said:
I have a friend who absolutely swears by a pair of MMGs driven by Quad 44/405 amplification. He says they are the most realistic sounding speakers he has ever heard. Sadly I've not heard them because he has them in storage back home in New Zealand while he is over here in the UK.

MP, thanks for the feedback.

It's looking like they are far more common in Australia and NZ. They are certainly not a common recommendation on this forum.....maybe they sould be.
 

CnoEvil

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Ajani said:
Just a few points:

Maggies are not electrostats. though they are similar in appearance and generally appeal to the same crowd.

Like with most things in audio, you really need to hear planar speakers for yourself to determine if the sound is for you... I really liked the sound of Final Sound full range (and I use the term 'full range' very loosely) Electrostats, wasn't very impressed with Martin Logan hybrid electrostats and flat out detested the sound of Magnepan MG12 planars... So to each his own...

Ajani, it's good to hear from someone who has heard this technology. I also see that these speakers can sound very different to each other and that it's as subjective as everything else in this hobby.
 

Frank Harvey

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There aren't really many UK stockists of this type of loudspeaker as UK rooms tend to be much smaller than the US for example, and this type of speaker needs room to breathe. Whatever Magnaplanar state in their FAQs, they do need space. They cleverly word this to say that they need no more space than a conventional box loudspeaker needs to perform correctly - most box loudspeakers will sound their best when they have a good few feet behind them - so they're not lying, but they're not being very specific either.
As far as amplification is concerned, they do require good amplification. An amplifier that is handy with 4ohm loads is a minimum requirement, but some panel speakers can dip as low as 1ohm (I believe the Maggies usually dip to 2ohms). My old SMGb's could be driven by an 8000A, but performed way better with an 8000P/C combination.
Whether they 'wipe the floor' with conventional speakers really depends on what sort of sound you're looking for. If you're into the likes of Massive Attack, they're going to disappoint due to their limited bass, which can sometimes sound quite weedy. The flipside is that very few speakers can rival their transparency and overall naturalness, and especially their lack of boxiness that usually plagues cheaper speakers. More modern speaker designs are far closer to the sound of panel speakers nowadays thanks to oddly shaped cabinets, and especially to sheer build quality.
As an ex-Maggies owner, could I go back to using a pair in a main hi-fi system? Not without a subwoofer, but then that brings it's own issues. My next hi-fi loudspeaker will act very much like a panel speaker, so I'll not need to move over to a panel.
Could I move over to them in an AV system for movies? Definitely not.
 

BernardLanguillier

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FrankHarveyHiFi said:
My next hi-fi loudspeaker will act very much like a panel speaker, so I'll not need to move over to a panel.

Care to share what those will be? It looks like a WB Vector description, but is that indeed the case?

Cheers,
Bernard
 

altruistic.lemon

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CnoEvil said:
Since I'm only going on what I've read in reviews, and that includes everything written in my thread, I was looking for personal experiences rather than more reading. This is not meant as an attack on this type of speaker, but rather a chance for reasoned debate, as I'm genuinely interested in getting peoples' views.
Look at the Maggie website, mate, I was trying to spare some blushes. Magnepan make AV speakers you can hang on the all, and are not electrostatic. There's also woofers to handle the bass.

Don't trust reviews, they're not a good source. And why don't you go and listen. Let the speakers do the talking, not the web. Never heard of maggies myself before the other week.

Martin Logan are hybrids, electrostatics with a conventional speaker to handle the bass.

I'd change the thread title, too, since it looks like you're only talking about Maggies and not electrostatics.
 

ID.

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altruistic.lemon said:
Don't trust reviews, they're not a good source. And why don't you go and listen. Let the speakers do the talking, not the web.

CnoEvil said:
I'm interested in getting opinions from those who have either heard or owned/own them, as I've never had the pleasure. This is purely academic as nobody stocks them where I live.
 

altruistic.lemon

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ID. said:
altruistic.lemon said:
Don't trust reviews, they're not a good source. And why don't you go and listen. Let the speakers do the talking, not the web.

CnoEvil said:
I'm interested in getting opinions from those who have either heard or owned/own them, as I've never had the pleasure. This is purely academic as nobody stocks them where I live.

CnoEvil said:
Since I'm only going on what I've read in reviews, and that includes everything written in my thread, I was looking for personal experiences rather than more reading.
 
T

the record spot

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Quad's long running ESL range (think the 2905 is the current model) is probably best known, but there's others out there - Soundlab or Janszen to name but two. Not cheap and you need a bit of space as David mentions.
 
A

Anonymous

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My A/B comparisons between Martin Logan Sources vs Wharfedale 10.1 ( each using 2 x 15" sealed subs ) goes like this:

Both speakers in large room, 5+ feet from back wall and 4 feet from sidewalls.

PROs :

- the electrostats are FAST, you really sense precussion instruments "slapping" the air , transient response is amazing.

- no "boxy" sound ...the sense of detail and transparency is even better than 10.1's ( which are very good IMO )

- the stereo imaging is amazing ..the word holographic has been thrown around and I agree ...

CONs : besides cost , amplification needs and room space ....

- the Martin Logans have a SMALL sweet spot ...move too far from the vertical ..and treble diminishes quickly ...

- I have heard larger Electrostats can do better at this ...the Martin Logans are at least not door size, so there is a trade off with my particular model

OVERALL ...I like my Wharfdales alot , but I was able to get the Martin Logans for a crazy price , so I could not help myself ...

The Panels were WORTH it ...takes hifi to another level for me , no regrets, but they are NOT for every room or person at all.

CHEERS from the US ...

dave - PC - FLAC files > Hiface USB-SPDIF > Emotiva XDA-1 DAC ( AD1955 ) > 2 x Emotiva UPA-1 ( 350W 4ohms ) > Martin Logan Sources + 2 x 15" Sealed Subs = HAPPY CAMPER

other speakers - KEF IQ30, Wharfdale 10.1
 

lindsayt

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Quad ESL 57 and 63 prices start from about £500.

They need refurbishment ever 10 to 15 years to keep them sounding their best. But even a pair needing refurbishment will be great sounding speakers for the money.

They have a reputation for lacking bass. They don't lack bass compared to many speakers, but what happens, is due to their dipole nature just as much sound comes out the back of them as the front. So rear firing bass can get reflected off the back wall and cancel out the front firing bass. Some people use subs with them. Some people also use super-tweeters with them, inparticular the ESL57's.

With their relatively low efficiency and limited power handling ability they will have limited maximum sound levels compared to some speakers. Some people use stacked pairs or quads of Quads - 2 or 4 speakers per channel.

I can think of no better speakers for playing string quartets due to their magical midrange where the speakers disappear and the musicians are placed before you.

I've seen quite a few people on the Internet say that they tried various coned and domed speakers before moving onto horns before moving onto and settling with electrostatics. For some people, no other type of speaker will do.

In hi-fi there are always compromises. For realistic bass at reasonable cost I'd go for large sealed box speakers. For dynamics I'd go for horns. For small size and WAF I'd go for bass reflex or transmission line.
 

CnoEvil

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AL, I'm not sure you're fully reading what I've written.

Since I was talking Electrostatics, the fact that Maggie makes conventional speakers for AV is irrelevent.

I trust reviews more than I trust a company's own promotional spin that they put on their website, and when most reviews say similar things, then that is a good pointer. The reason I asked for informed opinion is that I can't get to hear them, and I didn't want to go purely on these reviews alone.

I stated clearly at the start of the thread I was talking about "either hybrid or pure", and went on to say that "to get decent bass they have to be tall or amalgamated with a sub" (ie. Martin Logans). As you said that Maggies and ML are in a "different league" to Kef Ref, I was just trying to get a handle on why.

David at F.H. HiFi has backed up a lot of what I said, so it may not all be nonsense. :)
 

CnoEvil

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Davy, cheers to you from Ireland, and welcome to the forum.

Thank you for your experience, and am glad it spurred you into joining up with this merry little gang.
 

CnoEvil

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lindsayt said:
Quad ESL 57 and 63 prices start from about £500.

They need refurbishment ever 10 to 15 years to keep them sounding their best. But even a pair needing refurbishment will be great sounding speakers for the money.

They have a reputation for lacking bass. They don't lack bass compared to many speakers, but what happens, is due to their dipole nature just as much sound comes out the back of them as the front. So rear firing bass can get reflected off the back wall and cancel out the front firing bass. Some people use subs with them. Some people also use super-tweeters with them, inparticular the ESL57's.

With their relatively low efficiency and limited power handling ability they will have limited maximum sound levels compared to some speakers. Some people use stacked pairs or quads of Quads - 2 or 4 speakers per channel.

I can think of no better speakers for playing string quartets due to their magical midrange where the speakers disappear and the musicians are placed before you.

I've seen quite a few people on the Internet say that they tried various coned and domed speakers before moving onto horns before moving onto and settling with electrostatics. For some people, no other type of speaker will do.

In hi-fi there are always compromises. For realistic bass at reasonable cost I'd go for large sealed box speakers. For dynamics I'd go for horns. For small size and WAF I'd go for bass reflex or transmission line.

Lindsay, there's some helpful stuff in there.....thank you for taking the time. It's all helping to paint a picture of this type of speaker, which is interesting to me, and I hope to others.
 

altruistic.lemon

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CnoEvil said:
AL, I'm not sure you're fully reading what I've written. Since I was talking Electrostatics, the fact that Maggie makes conventional speakers for AV is irrelevent. I trust reviews more than I trust a company's own promotional spin that they put on their website, and when most reviews say similar things, then that is a good pointer. The reason I asked for informed opinion is that I can't get to hear them, and I didn't want to go purely on these reviews alone. I stated clearly at the start of the thread I was talking about "either hybrid or pure", and went on to say that "to get decent bass they have to be tall or amalgamated with a sub" (ie. Martin Logans). As you said that Maggies and ML are in a "different league" to Kef Ref, I was just trying to get a handle on why. David at F.H. HiFi has backed up a lot of what I said, so it may not all be nonsense. :)
As I said, you need to be clearer in your terminology, as you mentioned Maggies as being electrostatics, which they're not.

You can't trust reviews, you really need to give them a listen, be it non-electrostatic panel speakers like Magnepanar or hybrid electrostatics like Martin Logan, before attempting any judgement. Also, I get around by bike and train, yet managed to listen to (albeit by accident, and in Paris) both the panel and Electrostatic hybrids.

I'd also add that distance from rear wall depends on many, many factors as your dealer friend knows, and affects many speakers, not just electrostatics or straight panel speakers. Magnepans, particularly the smaller ones, can benefit from a subwoofer, as could many other standmount speakers. Martin Logan does more than decent bass so I'm struggling to think why you'd need one.

In the end, if you want to get closer to the musicians, go panel or electrostatic, they will take your breath away. Hop on a train, mate, and remember, you'll never know till you give it a go. ;)
 

CnoEvil

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altruistic.lemon said:
Hop on a train, mate, and remember, you'll never know till you give it a go. ;)

If I did that I would end up in the sea. :help: :)

With regard to the ML, I didn't mean that they needed a sub, only that the sub was incorporated into the design to deal with the bass.

I am not going to change what I have, so flying to another country to satisfy my curiosity is not a reality......hence the discussion on here. Anyway, I appreciate your input and if I had a large room for 2 channel only (and a local dealer), they sound like something that would suit my taste very well.
 

CnoEvil

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altruistic.lemon said:
What country are you in, out of curiosity?

Ireland.......if you are ever in this part of the world, you are welcome to come and listen to how well Kef Refs sound on the end of a MF AMS35i. ;)
 

ID.

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altruistic.lemon said:
ID. said:
altruistic.lemon said:
Don't trust reviews, they're not a good source. And why don't you go and listen. Let the speakers do the talking, not the web.

CnoEvil said:
I'm interested in getting opinions from those who have either heard or owned/own them, as I've never had the pleasure. This is purely academic as nobody stocks them where I live.

CnoEvil said:
Since I'm only going on what I've read in reviews, and that includes everything written in my thread, I was looking for personal experiences rather than more reading.

:rofl:
 

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