Electrostatics: brilliant answer or impractical solution.

[chebby]

www.hifisound.co.uk in Stockton-On-Tees are the UK importer for Magnepan. Tel: 0845 6019390 (Simon).

Simon informed people (in quite a recent thread in another place) that the MMGs (Magnepan's $599 electrostatics) are only available for direct sale from Magnepan themselves in the USA and Canada.

So it does seem that the cheapest Magneplanar available in the UK, from a dealer, is the MG12 at £1495.

I suggest that you give www.hifisound.co.uk a call to find out who your nearest dealer is and if they can help you get a demo.

 

[CnoEvil]

www.hifisound.co.uk in Stockton-On-Tees are the UK importer for Magnepan. Tel: 0845 6019390 (Simon).

Simon informed people (in quite a recent thread in another place) that the MMGs (Magnepan's $599 electrostatics) are only available for direct sale from Magnepan themselves in the USA and Canada.

So it does seem that the cheapest Magneplanar available in the UK, from a dealer, is the MG12 at £1495.

I suggest that you give www.hifisound.co.uk a call to find out who your nearest dealer is and if they can help you get a demo.

Chebby, thank you for the links and info.

 

[chebby]

Or you could emigrate to Australia where, apparently, there is an abundance of cheap electrostatics in every supermarket!

(Between the 'Ground Irish beef' and 'Guinness Fools' refrigerated cabinets and the Steve Waugh "Epistemology & Cricket" book-stand. Next to the BBQ mitts).

 

[CnoEvil]

Or you could emigrate to Australia where, apparently, there is an abundance of cheap electrostatics in every supermarket!

(Between the 'Ground Irish beef' and 'Guinness Fools' refrigerated cabinets and the Steve Waugh "Epistemology & Cricket" book-stand. Next to the BBQ mitts).

🙂 :silenced:

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Would let the neither of you in, mates. You have to pass an intelligence test.

Remember, every Aussie who moves to the UK raises the IQ in both countries.

 

[Frank Harvey]

So when an Aussie leaves Australia, the IQ goes up in Australia?

 

[CnoEvil]

Would let the neither of you in, mates. You have to pass an intelligence test.

Remember, every Aussie who moves to the UK raises the IQ in both countries.

You let 40,000 of us in between 1791 and 1867......I think you might have got this backways.

 

[chebby]

So when an Aussie leaves Australia, the IQ goes up in Australia?

Thanks for helping to prove him right David. (Let the side down a bit there.)

 

[Ajani]

..... the MMGs (Magnepan's $599 electrostatics) .......

Just a reminder guys: Magnepan does not make electrostats... even though the speakers look very similar to electrostats, they are not... You can call all those kind of speakers panel speakers...

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm an Aussie, mate. We don't wear fools gladly, and are ruthless in grinding them into the dust. Steve Waugh is both a saint and philosopher down under. 😀

You may well find that these traits were originally sent over from Ireland, where it's a way of life. You don't grind down an Irishman, though many have tried. 🙂

A good portion of my family live in Oz and NZ. In fact one of my more eccentric cousins (John Foss) is the inventor of the remarkable "Fosscati Giacomo" motorized bicycle.

Now can we please bury the hatchet (not in each other), as we may get on better than you might think.

I'll buy you a guinness if you're ever in Ireland. :cheers:

Cno

 

[nopiano]

Does that mean that the the cheapest (least expensive) electrostatic in the UK is the Martin Logan ElectroMotion, which I see retails at 2499GBP per pair? It is a hybrid, in that it has a 8inch cone woofer. It is also remarkably efficient with a claimed claimed 91dB/watt into 6ohms.

All that might mean some of the misgivings you had, Cno, and those highlighted above, may have been overcome, albeit not a pure electrostatic design. I'm beginning to wish I'd not seen this thread, as I have an inexplicable wish now to hear a pair!

 

[CnoEvil]

Does that mean that the the cheapest (least expensive) electrostatic in the UK is the Martin Logan ElectroMotion, which I see retails at 2499GBP per pair? It is a hybrid, in that it has a 8inch cone woofer. It is also remarkably efficient with a claimed claimed 91dB/watt into 6ohms.

All that might mean some of the misgivings you had, Cno, and those highlighted above, may have been overcome, albeit not a pure electrostatic design. I'm beginning to wish I'd not seen this thread, as I have an inexplicable wish now to hear a pair!

....which was exactly the point of the thread.

 

[Anonymous]

Most of the good sound of the electrostatics with the 'speaker disappearing' is from the open dipole design.

You do not need fancy panel or electrostatic speakers for this however, there are many good cones that do the job just as well with far less cost in loudness etc.

There is a lot of research going on about this: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=diyaudio+dipole+speakers

and some good commercial designs already on the market.

 

[Anonymous]

About half a lifetime ago (I'm now 44) I had my Dad's ESL 57s with Quad 22/II applification in my bedroom. I was completely blown away by the sheer transparency and transient response of these speakers - you could hear everything that was going on in the music. The speakers were fairly close to the wall behind them, which had curtains on it, so I guess the imaging wasn't particularly good, I really don't know.

The bass seemed ample to me, nicely full and firm. Mid range and treble was sweet and clear. It was around the time of Dire Straits Brothers in Arms album, it sounded fantastic. I don't think you can get that sound from a normal speaker at anywhere near the price of £1200 which wil get you a refurbed pair of 57's on that auction site.

I would suggest, if you really want to hear an electrostatic speaker, get a decent pair second hand in the knowledge that you can always sell them on with very little money lost. You really have little to lose ecept the cost of transporting them.

 

[Ajani]

Does that mean that the the cheapest (least expensive) electrostatic in the UK is the Martin Logan ElectroMotion, which I see retails at 2499GBP per pair? It is a hybrid, in that it has a 8inch cone woofer. It is also remarkably efficient with a claimed claimed 91dB/watt into 6ohms...........................

Probably... Martin Logan's entry level hybrid is usually the cheapest electrostat on the market, that I know of (US market at least). Electrostats are notorious for being expensive.

 

[Anonymous]

First off Id like to congratulate you for your investigation Cno, because I think this is a great post. :clap: I live in the US where its fairly easy to demo electros and I personally love 'em, at least the ones Ive heard to date, but I can also apprecite the dynamism provided by good floorstanders. However as its already being pointed out theres a reason Martin Logan, which have been doing this practically form their beginning, are enjoying a such large success with their hybrid designs. They simpley address the main issues with electros, bass and being more efficient/sensitive than conventional electrostatics, Ive just searched amazon and the cheapest hybrid i found was this one http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-Purity-Fully-Powered-Electrostatic-Loudspeaker/dp/B000XSBJRW/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1314054417&sr=8-16 frequency response down to 41Hz (use two 6.5in cones) and 93Db sensitivity, but the best part you dont even need an amp!! :O they already have a 200W amp built in you can even hook up an ipod stright into it, they are going for $1700 w/ Free shipping within US, tho am sure they ship internationally.

Yes, Granted these arent full electrostats but ithink they will give you a lot of their sound without breking the bank, Magnepans also has some pseudo-electros for not very much too at least over here.

PS: To the people hating on this post you guys are forgetting what this forum is all about to share a passion for music not gear. There is a reason why this technology is still around and well liked so to those who have heard it threse no equal in what they do rite, enjoy.

 

[CnoEvil]

First off Id like to congratulate you for your investigation Cno, because I think this is a great post. :clap: I live in the US where its fairly easy to demo electros and I personally love 'em, at least the ones Ive heard to date, but I can also apprecite the dynamism provided by good floorstanders. However as its already being pointed out theres a reason Martin Logan, which have been doing this practically form their beginning, are enjoying a such large success with their hybrid designs. They simpley address the main issues with electros, bass and being more efficient/sensitive than conventional electrostatics, Ive just searched amazon and the cheapest hybrid i found was this one http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-Purity-Fully-Powered-Electrostatic-Loudspeaker/dp/B000XSBJRW/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1314054417&sr=8-16 frequency response down to 41Hz (use two 6.5in cones) and 93Db sensitivity, but the best part you dont even need an amp!! :O they already have a 200W amp built in you can even hook up an ipod stright into it, they are going for $1700 w/ Free shipping within US, tho am sure they ship internationally.

Yes, Granted these arent full electrostats but ithink they will give you a lot of their sound without breking the bank, Magnepans also has some pseudo-electros for not very much too at least over here.

PS: To the people hating on this post you guys are forgetting what this forum is all about to share a passion for music not gear. There is a reason why this technology is still around and well liked so to those who have heard it threse no equal in what they do rite, enjoy.

Thank you Sir, for the kind support.

Cno

 

[Native_bon]

I happened to listen to a pair Electrostatic speakers at KJ west one hifi shop in london.. bout 4yrs back. Can not remember the make, but it was way out of my spending power. I can savely save never heard better since then. I think they cost in the region of £12,000. The speed & fullness of the bass was out of this world, with the rest of the frequency range well intergrated. The were big speakers as well.

May be one day i will get that sound for myself.. 😛ray:

 

[CnoEvil]

I happened to listen to a pair Electrostatic speakers at KJ west one hifi shop in london.. bout 4yrs back. Can not remember the make, but it was way out of my spending power. I can savely save never heard better since then. I think they cost in the region of £12,000. The speed & fullness of the bass was out of this world, with the rest of the frequency range well intergrated. The were big speakers as well.

May be one day i will get that sound for myself.. 😛ray:

Thx N_b, for your feedback......please don't read anything into it, but I don't want to take away from OD's thread, so if others have feedback, can they post it there, as two threads can get confuddling: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/electrostatic-speakers-pros-and-cons

 

[Overdose]

That's very considerate Cno, but I wouldn't worry too much, as sooner or later both threads will drop off into page 2 obscurity and beyond. :O

 

[Native_bon]

I happened to listen to a pair Electrostatic speakers at KJ west one hifi shop in london.. bout 4yrs back. Can not remember the make, but it was way out of my spending power. I can savely save never heard better since then. I think they cost in the region of £12,000. The speed & fullness of the bass was out of this world, with the rest of the frequency range well intergrated. The were big speakers as well.

May be one day i will get that sound for myself.. 😛ray:

Thx N_b, for your feedback......please don't read anything into it, but I don't want to take away from OD's thread, so if others have feedback, can they post it there, as two threads can get confuddling: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/electrostatic-speakers-pros-and-cons

Thanx CnoEvil 😉

 

[busb]

I happened to listen to a pair Electrostatic speakers at KJ west one hifi shop in london.. bout 4yrs back. Can not remember the make, but it was way out of my spending power. I can savely save never heard better since then. I think they cost in the region of £12,000. The speed & fullness of the bass was out of this world, with the rest of the frequency range well intergrated. The were big speakers as well.

May be one day i will get that sound for myself.. 😛ray:

Thx N_b, for your feedback......please don't read anything into it, but I don't want to take away from OD's thread, so if others have feedback, can they post it there, as two threads can get confuddling: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/electrostatic-speakers-pros-and-cons

Thanx CnoEvil 😉

I heard a pair of Quad electros around thirty years ago, probably driven by quad prem/power. They sounded stupendously good - no boxiness, beautifully integrated across their frequency range, smooth, detailed with good imaging. Their bass was their greatest weakness: not deep. Upper treble wasn't brilliant.

The nearest speaker I've heard recently was an oldish pair of column Grandiants that have to be up against a wall to produce bass which actually goes quite deep. These speakers are triangular in cross-section with the dual driver mounted on an internal frame, therefore no box that does give a clean sound with fewer artefacts than my Arros. For a speaker that needs a rear wall, they image well if not up to the standard of mine. So there are alternatives to electros.

 

[juliancyt]

Jamo R909/R907 is an example commercial open baffle design, which can be considered something in between of panel (full dipole) and box speakers.They got excellent review by WHF.

http://www.whathifi.com/review/jamo-r909

 

[matt49]

Interesting (old) thread. A bit before my time.

But since it's been re-opened, I'll add a word or two (hundred) on the pros and cons of ESLs, based on my experience of owning Martin Logans for the last few months.

The biggest advantage of ESLs is the speed of transient response. No dynamic speaker can come near it. I think some ribbon-type tweeters are good, but they only cover the very top end of the frequency range. An ESL gives you that lightning speed of attack and decay right down through the mid-range and into the upper bass. The effect of fast transient response is to give more definition and texture. ESLs give a much better sense of what an acoustic instrument or voice really sounds like. The feeling of being there is extraordinary.

Another advantage is the sense of space. ESLs are either line arrays (e.g. Martin Logans) or squarish panels (Quads). They do an amazing job of creating an immersive field of sound.

Third: my MLs have no crossover. One panel covers the range from 20kHz down to 340Hz. Most dynamic speakers have a crossover in the upper mid-range. However well engineered the crossover is, and regardless whether it's a passive or active crossover, there's a "join" right in the middle of the range where human hearing is most sensitive. It's pretty noticeable with voices and string instruments, especially solo violin. The panel in my MLs is fed direct by the amp (well, via a transformer). In that sense, a full range ESL is technically superior to any active dynamic speaker.

More technical advantages: no boxiness, no cabinet resonances, and no cone break-up. All speakers distort, but ESLs distort far less than dynamic speakers, even actives.

So what are the disadvantages?

People often mention size, and it's true that some ESLs are quite wide and need to be placed away from side walls. My MLs are the same size as a large floorstander, so they're OK in my room.

Because ESLs are dipoles, they project sound backwards as well as forwards, so they either need to be placed a few feet away from the front wall or have acoustic panels behind them. My room isn't at all large; I have an acoustic panel behind each speaker.

To do proper deep bass, ESLs have to be accompanied by a sub. Integrating a sub is tricky. Martin Logan have done lots of work on this, and the more expensive models (yes, they are very expensive) work very well, with each speaker having an integrated active sub with its own 200W amp controlled by a 24-bit DSP engine, with gain control. The only problem is that the panel is faster than the sub, but I don't find this much of an issue.

Some ESLs have very low impedance at high frequencies. Mine go sub-0.5ohms at 20kHz. This means a very high quality amp is needed, otherwise the HF will distort at high volumes. More expense! Other ESLs have a more benign impedance curve.

Finally, ESLs provide an amazingly clear window on the music. The rest of your system needs to be really good. And some recordings will inevitably be shown up. On the other hand, good recordings are revealed in their full glory.

Matt

 

[Just-Ears]

CnoEvil, I think you are very correct in that it all comes down to the ears. No expert can calculate what I hear. If you are asking for oppinions, here is mine. I have an Audiolab 8200 amp with the 8200DAC CD player paired with KEF R700 speakers. The sound is well balanced across the range (Better balanced than some more expensive amps. Again, I let my ears do the talking) and staging is admirable. It is bi-wired with good quality cables and generally performs well in my living room. I have just returned from visiting my brother who has bought (Roughly at the same time) a Primare 30i with comparable cd player. He has more space in his living room and had paired his equipment with Martin Logan eloctrostats. The two amps are comarable so I do not believe that any sound difference is due to quality issues. Yet, I find that the clarity of sound from the Martin Logans is significantly better (to my ears) then my KEFFs. The sound is brighter, more life like, appears spacious with good depth and clarity. We both have a very eclectic taste in music which ranges from heavy classical to heavy metal and everything inbetween. I find that the Logans cope very well with all thats thrown at it, probably better than my KEFFs. It is true that the Logans lack a little in the bass compartment and my brother is considering a sub woofer. The sweet spot is smaller than with conventional speakers but even outside of the sweetspot, the clarity is beautiful. Don't get me wrong, the KEFFs are a very decent set of speakers but if I had the room (and the money), I know what I would be buying..... Am I jealous of my bother? .......Lucky sod