Dedicated Home Cineam Room - Help and Guidance sought after

[Frank Harvey]

I've only ever reached between -10dB/-15dB with quieter movies like Zodiac, The Social Network, and No Country For Old Men, although they soon let you know what volume you're listening at when a gun is fired or you're suddenly ina scene in the middle of a nightclub!

I find -25dB to be a nice volume (not sure the neighbours would agree mind) which isn't excessively loud, and isn't "TV watching level". Virtually any decent speakers should handle this sort of level easily, and if they don't, they're not being used correctly.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Its not a special sauce its the same thing people in cinema have done forever - in the hifi world its done different becasue of the music aspect.

It doesn't have to be though. Most AV packages I put together are usually based on the sub/sat approach and setup, regardless of the type of speaker the end user insists on.

 

[ellisdj]

Volumes level numbers are uselsss because it all depends on the trim level for each channel and loads of other factors.

After a recent demo that is one of the best things I have ever seen and heard I realised my channel levels were too high for my bass ouput.

So I have reduced them by about 5db in relation to the level of the subs, these stayed the same - I will now watch films on close to reference 0DB but the actual output volume is reduced - but much more in balance. The number doesnt mean anything.

You cant have too much Good bass for movies I have been learning

 

[Frank Harvey]

The relative levels of the channels can have a huge effect on how the end result sounds, and although there is a right way to do it, much of the time a system is set to how the end user prefers, although sometimes individual channel trims are set to disguise system shortcomings. Those with an insufficient centre speaker will usually have it turned up higher than necessary because it isn't good enough to stand out against the rest of the channels.

Most peole shouldnt need to adjust a channel level any more than about +/-5dB, with the sub being the main one that can differ wildly - my subs are usually on around -8dB, but with higher gain at the sub itself to avoid any possible chance of overloading the input to the sub on louder scenes (although at normal volume levels, this shouldn't be an issue anyway). Anyone with their sub set between +5/10dB at the receiver/processor should system reset and start again and get that level down to no more than 0dB ideally.

 

[rocketrazor]

I find -25dB to be a nice volume (not sure the neighbours would agree mind) which isn't excessively loud, and isn't "TV watching level". Virtually any decent speakers should handle this sort of level easily, and if they don't, they're not being used correctly.

blimey, I don't go over -40db and that's loud. My centre is + 5db extra but -25db, how loud is that!

 

[rocketrazor]

Been looking at the below Denon online

http://www.denon.sk/uk/product/pages/product-detail.aspx?catid=hometheatre&subid=avreceivers&productid=avrx5200w

but it doesn't say it's HDCP 2:2 pass through capable. The 3200w does but this doesn't. Have I missed something?

 

[bigboss]

Been looking at the below Denon online?

http://www.denon.sk/uk/product/pages/product-detail.aspx?catid=hometheat...

but it doesn't say it's HDCP 2:2 pass through capable. The 3200w does but this doesn't. Have I missed something?

5200w is a 2014 model which doesn't have HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 while 3200w and 4200w are 2015 models which have them.

https://www.avforums.com/article/denon-launch-new-range-of-av-receivers-with-dolby-atmos-dtsx.11624

 

[rocketrazor]

Been looking at the below Denon online

http://www.denon.sk/uk/product/pages/product-detail.aspx?catid=hometheat...

but it doesn't say it's HDCP 2:2 pass through capable. The 3200w does but this doesn't. Have I missed something?

5200w is a 2014 model which doesn't have HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 while 3200w and 4200w are 2015 models which have them.

https://www.avforums.com/article/denon-launch-new-range-of-av-receivers-...

ah right, thanks for clearing that up. Would have been nice of Denon not to use the same numbers for 2014 and 2015!

 

[rocketrazor]

Think I'll add these to my demo list

11 channel so no need for that extra Amp

Yamaha RX-A3050

9 channel so will need extra amp

Yamaha RX-A2050

I have a Yamaha now and love it, but I've always wanted a Marantz. Don't know why I just have.......

​

 

[bigboss]

Yamaha RX-A3050 is a 9-channel amp unfortunately, with processing for 11 channels. So you will need a separate stereo or power amplifier.

 

[bigboss]

Onkyo is the only manufacturer that makes a true 11-channel AV receiver: TX-NR3030.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I find -25dB to be a nice volume (not sure the neighbours would agree mind) which isn't excessively loud, and isn't "TV watching level". Virtually any decent speakers should handle this sort of level easily, and if they don't, they're not being used correctly.

blimey, I don't go over -40db and that's loud. My centre is + 5db extra but -25db, how loud is that!

Exactly my point - most people don't listen at particularly loud volumes, and certainly not the sort of volumes that some systems are demonstrated at. Any half decent system can sound impressive at nigh on Reference Level, but that doesn't mean they'll perform equally well at the levels you'll listen at at home.

Unless your centre is noticeably less efficient than your left/right speakers, +5dB sounds a little high. This will focus the sound around the screen, which some people may like so isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you'll lose soundfield depth and detail.

 

[rocketrazor]

I find -25dB to be a nice volume (not sure the neighbours would agree mind) which isn't excessively loud, and isn't "TV watching level". Virtually any decent speakers should handle this sort of level easily, and if they don't, they're not being used correctly.

blimey, I don't go over -40db and that's loud. My centre is + 5db extra but -25db, how loud is that!

Exactly my point - most people don't listen at particularly loud volumes, and certainly not the sort of volumes that some systems are demonstrated at. Any half decent system can sound impressive at nigh on Reference Level, but that doesn't mean they'll perform equally well at the levels you'll listen at at home.

Unless your centre is noticeably less efficient than your left/right speakers, +5dB sounds a little high. This will focus the sound around the screen, which some people may like so isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you'll lose soundfield depth and detail.

my speakers are all the same set, Mission M7 series. With the centre at normal level I can't here the voices very clearly and end up turning it up to loud, so I guess I've turned the centre up so the rest of the speakers aren't as loud as well.

My Yamaha amp has a test button which sends a static sound round all speakers and they all sound about the same.

 

[rocketrazor]

Yamaha RX-A3050 is a 9-channel amp unfortunately, with processing for 11 channels. So you will need a separate stereo or power amplifier.

looked again, as ever your right big boss, it's all in the detail. I'll knock the 2050 off my list as its only 9.2 but will leave the 3050 on but I'll need an additional amp

 

[davidvann]

hi rocketrazor ,i see your from southend, me i'm more towards westcliff ,just wondering have you had a look in at rayleigh hifi ,the guys in there are really helpful and might give you some ideas to get you going.david

 

[Frank Harvey]

My Yamaha amp has a test button which sends a static sound round all speakers and they all sound about the same.

It just sounds like the centre is less efficient than the others then. If you have a smart phone, might be worth downloading an app to double check the levels - Audio Tool is decent enough.

 

[rocketrazor]

hi rocketrazor ,i see your from southend, me i'm more towards westcliff ,just wondering have you had a look in at rayleigh hifi ,the guys in there are really helpful and might give you some ideas to get you going.david

Hi David,

Yeah, I gave them a call this week and will popping into them for a demo once I know if I can afford the actual building work! I have a guy coming for a quote next week although it will be a few weeks to get the actual quote but should I go ahead they are a firm i'm considering for a quote for kit and possibly installation as well. Had a good conversation with tem about what they do/don't do and how they would discuss with my chosen building firm to complete the job.

Cheers

Rocket

 

[rocketrazor]

My Yamaha amp has a test button which sends a static sound round all speakers and they all sound about the same.

It just sounds like the centre is less efficient than the others then. If you have a smart phone, might be worth downloading an app to double check the levels - Audio Tool is decent enough.

I'll give it a go, cheers

 

[rocketrazor]

My Yamaha amp has a test button which sends a static sound round all speakers and they all sound about the same.

It just sounds like the centre is less efficient than the others then. If you have a smart phone, might be worth downloading an app to double check the levels - Audio Tool is decent enough.

I'll give it a go, cheers

 

[Son_of_SJ]

The relative levels of the channels can have a huge effect on how the end result sounds, and although there is a right way to do it, much of the time a system is set to how the end user prefers, although sometimes individual channel trims are set to disguise system shortcomings. Those with an insufficient centre speaker will usually have it turned up higher than necessary because it isn't good enough to stand out against the rest of the channels.

Most peole shouldnt need to adjust a channel level any more than about +/-5dB, with the sub being the main one that can differ wildly - my subs are usually on around -8dB, but with higher gain at the sub itself to avoid any possible chance of overloading the input to the sub on louder scenes (although at normal volume levels, this shouldn't be an issue anyway). Anyone with their sub set between +5/10dB at the receiver/processor should system reset and start again and get that level down to no more than 0dB ideally.

I find, on all four of my systems, that the centre channels and the subwoofer are the ones that the receiver's automatic calibration systems struggle with and I have to adjust them. Usually the automatic system results in the centre channel being too weak and the subwoofer channel being too strong, so I have to turn the centre channel well up and the subwoofer level well down from the automatic suggested values.

For instance, in my parlour system, with my Denon AVR 4810 receiver, the Audyssey calibration suggests the centre channel at -5dB and the subwoofer at -1.5dB. I have the subwoofer (SVS PC13-Ultra - old style, with the 750W Bash amplifier) at -3.0dB, but the centre channel (a Kef Cresta 20c) at 6.0dB, which is 11dB more than the recommendation.

In my kitchen system as mentioned in post , these are the levels that I currently have

Most of the speakers are at the levels suggested by the YMPAO calibration, but I've had to increase the single rear back from -3.5dB to -0.5dB, and the centre channel from -3.5dB to +1.5dB.

My systems in my bedroom and the front bedroom are similar, the centre channel has to be boosted quite a bit from the values suggested by the calibration. Otherwise I just don't hear the voices in films clearly enough. I do the manual adjustments by using the receivers' test tones to make the sound from all speakers sound of equal loudness from the main listening position. And I don't have a smart phone, so I can't download any apps!

 

[Son_of_SJ]

Onkyo is the only manufacturer that makes a true 11-channel AV receiver: TX-NR3030.

On this rare occasion, my pal bigboss is not quite right. The Yamaha CX-A5000 / MX-A5000 pre-power amplifier combination, which will soon be replaced after being in production for two years, DOES process 11 channels! Mind you, it does come in two separate boxes, which is the same as the Yamaha RX-A3050 for instance, and a separate ordinary stereo amplifier. And this Yamaha CX-A5000 / MX-A5000 combo is big and heavy, especially the power amplifier! And costs five grand!

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news/article/yamaha-cx-a5000-mx-a5000-review/17622

Rocketrazor, can I interest you in this?? *blum3*

 

[bigboss]

Onkyo is the only manufacturer that makes a true 11-channel AV receiver: TX-NR3030.

On this rare occasion, my pal bigboss is not quite right. The Yamaha CX-A5000 / MX-A5000 pre-power amplifier combination, which will soon be replaced after being in production for two years, DOES process 11 channels! Mind you, it does come in two separate boxes, which is the same as the Yamaha RX-A3050 for instance, and a separate ordinary stereo amplifier. And this Yamaha CX-A5000 / MX-A5000 combo is big and heavy, especially the power amplifier! And costs five grand!

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news/article/yamaha-cx-a5000-mx-a5000-review/17622

Rocketrazor, can I interest you in this?? *blum3*

That's not an AV receiver! 😉

The whole purpose of an AV receiver is a one box solution. Otherwise, an AV receiver with a stereo amplifier is a cheaper two-box option.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

That's not an AV receiver! 😉

The whole purpose of an AV receiver is a one box solution. Otherwise, an AV receiver with a stereo amplifier is a cheaper two-box option.

I did acknowledge as much in post 71! And by "cheaper two-box option" you mean about £3,800 cheaper!

 

[rocketrazor]

Onkyo is the only manufacturer that makes a true 11-channel AV receiver: TX-NR3030.

On this rare occasion, my pal bigboss is not quite right. The Yamaha CX-A5000 / MX-A5000 pre-power amplifier combination, which will soon be replaced after being in production for two years, DOES process 11 channels! Mind you, it does come in two separate boxes, which is the same as the Yamaha RX-A3050 for instance, and a separate ordinary stereo amplifier. And this Yamaha CX-A5000 / MX-A5000 combo is big and heavy, especially the power amplifier! And costs five grand!

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news/article/yamaha-cx-a5000-mx-a5000-review/17622

Rocketrazor, can I interest you in this?? *blum3*

I don't believe it HDCP 2.2 compliant *biggrin*

 

[rocketrazor]

Bigboss, do I recall seeing on a different topic that you monitored the price of the Marantz last year to see when it dropped? If you did do you mind letting me know when the first price drop was last year? I'm in no rush and as cost could be a factor buying it at it's cheapest might be the only way I can get this dream to work. I think I recall it dropping to £850 at some point which is £500 cheaper then the RRP in September. If you didn't I wonder why I got the impression you did?!?!

Cheers

Rocket