bigboss
Moderator
KK doesn't have a UK dealer unfortunately. L-Sound based in Norway have sole rights for Europe. So you can't demo in a shop.
bigboss
Moderator
rocketrazor said:
Speak to David at Frank Harvey to see what he can do for you. I got a very significant discount off RRP. Whichever kit you choose and wherever you decide to buy from, buy it all from 1 dealer for greater discounts.
bigboss
Moderator
ellisdj said:
The cheapest MK was quite expensive when I was looking. I bought 11 MA speakers, AVR, projector, screen and Oppo player for only £500 more than the quoted price of cheapest decent MK speakers.
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
bigboss said:
Sorry bigboss, I'm not clear. How many MK speakers are you referring to, do you mean a stereo pair or a 5.1 package? I'm guessing a 5.1 package, but which particular MK one?
ellisdj said:
I'll take another look then incase I missed it. don't worry about the comment re the KK ones, I didn't take it the wrong way, I took it exactly as you meant it. Their just way to expensive for me
bigboss said:
Cheers bigboss. I have David at Frank Harvey on my list to contact if my project takes off. I'll defo get a quote from him for the kit. I see his been really helpful to a few guys on here and had some very good input on other topics so I'll be giving him a call/paying a visit.
Did you manage to demo the Monitor Audio in-wall speakers or did you demo a different type. The more I look the more they are falling into my price band (although I still don't know exactly what that is yet!!!). I just know others i've looked at are to expensive for me. My local dealer I phoned yesterday has a different speaker setup, can't remember the name but they are in-wall, so I'll be seeing what they are like in the coming weeks as well. Will look at the difference between quality of in-wall vs off-wall as well
This isn't something I plan on rushing into so it's going to take some time, demoing and research.
As a general rule hope you guys don't mind me picking your brains every so often *smile*
Cheers
Its not just about the speakers - its the way they are installed which is "perfect for cinema" - its very hard to flaw the concept for pure movies, I am not sold on it for music, but its what do you really want
This info is easy to find but its only after experiencing it that you see it works really well.
You have to work to your budget as well - you will always get encouragment from me to spend more, I am just like that, so sorry
This info is easy to find but its only after experiencing it that you see it works really well.
You have to work to your budget as well - you will always get encouragment from me to spend more, I am just like that, so sorry
bigboss
Moderator
bigboss
Moderator
rocketrazor said:
I demoed the Monitor Audio Silver range, which share the same drivers as Trimless 200. Yes, they're not the same but will give an idea. That's the main issue with in-wall and in-celining speakers: demos are difficult. I'm very happy with mine.
ellisdj said:
No worries, the budget is set by the better half so I don't have much movement in the price. It also has to include doing the garae or loft. i'm already a little unsure if it's going to be enough to be honest. I might end up building it in stages to spread the cost. Either way all the speakers would be installed from day one even if not used. I'd like to get it all professionally fitted but again cost is a factor so I'll have to see, might end up being a DIY job!
bigboss said:rocketrazor said:
I demoed the Monitor Audio Silver range, which share the same drivers as Trimless 200. Yes, they're not the same but will give an idea. That's the main issue with in-wall and in-celining speakers: demos are difficult. I'm very happy with mine.
thanks. I've noticed the difficulty in trying to demo in-wall and in-ceiling speakers!
Cheers
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
bigboss said:
Wow! I've just looked at the M&K website, here http://mkloudspeakers.com/home-cinema-products and I see by clicking on the relevant icons that the IW150 are £995 for a single speaker. The IW85 are £475 each! And you said that these are the cheapest decent home cinema speakers from M&K! So the 11-speaker package that you might have wanted would have been £6,875! No wonder you declined!! I don't doubt that they are very good, but, for most people, pricey.
The IW150 are in wall versions of very good old industry standard speakers that are simialrly priced - so they are going to cost a bit.
£500 a speaker for the other ones isnt silly money at all - loads of simialr priced speakers out there Kef LS50 springs to mind initially. Plus you can always get a deal
Obviously it adds up but it always will buying that many speakers. £2.5k for 5.0 isnt silly money at all really
£500 a speaker for the other ones isnt silly money at all - loads of simialr priced speakers out there Kef LS50 springs to mind initially. Plus you can always get a deal
Obviously it adds up but it always will buying that many speakers. £2.5k for 5.0 isnt silly money at all really
bigboss
Moderator
ellisdj said:The IW150 are in wall versions of very good old industry standard speakers that are simialrly priced - so they are going to cost a bit.
£500 a speaker for the other ones isnt silly money at all - loads of simialr priced speakers out there Kef LS50 springs to mind initially. Plus you can always get a deal
Obviously it adds up but it always will buying that many speakers. £2.5k for 5.0 isnt silly money at all really
Aah, but LS50 isn't an in-wall speaker!
Yes I was offered a discount on it, but my entire current kit came in at just £500 more than the discounted price of speakers alone. And actually, MA speakers are brilliant and do not sound inferior to the MK speakers I demoed at all (although they are 2 entirely different systems in different room setups).
I have MA top of the range - they are different sounding to MK for movies - MK's are probably better if you like a very direct sound - which is great for movies. Its hard to argue with MK for movies. KK and XTZ will be similar I am sure.
The imaging is better off the Plats but they are less cinematic sounding - possibly more reaslitic that could be a lot of things cuasing that tough.
Hearing the XTZ at Epic Home cinema the scale of sound was mental - he had MA silver in there before and he said they wouldnt play as clearly at that volume / scale - that could well be sales spiel knowing what I had at home talking
If I was building a cinema only system these types of speakers would be what I would likely use - I would not have said that a few months ago. Says a lot to me that I have changed my view that muc - credit where credit is due
The imaging is better off the Plats but they are less cinematic sounding - possibly more reaslitic that could be a lot of things cuasing that tough.
Hearing the XTZ at Epic Home cinema the scale of sound was mental - he had MA silver in there before and he said they wouldnt play as clearly at that volume / scale - that could well be sales spiel knowing what I had at home talking
If I was building a cinema only system these types of speakers would be what I would likely use - I would not have said that a few months ago. Says a lot to me that I have changed my view that muc - credit where credit is due
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
Why Gosh?
Certain aspects of the way its advised to do it with these speakers makes sense when you see it - this is why I said go and demo because the setup model works really well.
Especially 3 identical and same orientated speakers behind a projection screen makes sense and does tie in the front sound stage lovely.
Having the screen as the only thing you see makes sense and for a far more immersive viewing experience - its more like the cinema like that.
I am trying to do this now - incorporating a drop down screen in front of my whole system to try and replicate this - but there is a lot more work and cost for the screen as a result. Not sure if it will be feasible either atm.
However this model doesnt work for me for music as well so its depends on what you want the system for. If purely movies totally tailoring it to that makes sense - going a typical hifi route with it in terms of kit placement does not.
Think the op is already on to this anyway with in walls - gives lots of flexibility to go where needed - is a good idea if doing major works
Certain aspects of the way its advised to do it with these speakers makes sense when you see it - this is why I said go and demo because the setup model works really well.
Especially 3 identical and same orientated speakers behind a projection screen makes sense and does tie in the front sound stage lovely.
Having the screen as the only thing you see makes sense and for a far more immersive viewing experience - its more like the cinema like that.
I am trying to do this now - incorporating a drop down screen in front of my whole system to try and replicate this - but there is a lot more work and cost for the screen as a result. Not sure if it will be feasible either atm.
However this model doesnt work for me for music as well so its depends on what you want the system for. If purely movies totally tailoring it to that makes sense - going a typical hifi route with it in terms of kit placement does not.
Think the op is already on to this anyway with in walls - gives lots of flexibility to go where needed - is a good idea if doing major works
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
The Quattro range replaced the S150 range, which was "top of the range". New models coming from Ken Kreisel will include a few ranges below, and even some above, with various spekers that will suit virtually every purpose, particularly Atmos/DTS:X. I doubt we'll see anything before the new year though, so it just depends on the time scale of the OP's build.ellisdj said:
As stated, there isn't currently a UK based retailer, which makes auditioning nigh on impossible. Hopefully this situation will be sorted ASAP (anyone wishing to voice their concerns on this matter can contact Ken directly! Don't worry, he won't mind, but it'll let him know there's a demand for demonstration facilities here in the UK).
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
This isn't necessarily unique to dedicated home theatre speakers though, as many of the guidelines can be applied to home theatres based around hi-fi speaker packages. Granted, some hi-fi speakers might not go quite as loud as dedicated AV speakers, but very few listen at the sort of volumes these systems are typically demonstrated at. I rarely get above -20dB/-35dB at home for a good room filling sound that sometimes sounds like the house is going to come down! I doubt many people could push past -15dB, except for when showing off to visitors.ellisdj said:
Hi David
You can obviously use whatever speakers you want - generally a hifi speaker is designed for a bit of free space in my experience. Put them flat against the wall and you might as well use something else
Those more cinema dedicated type speakers doesnt matter who made by are designed to be "flat" on the wall - so mounting behind a PJ is screen is made easy. and simple and much cheaper!!!
Only when you start looking into having a PJ screen you realise having hifi speakers out in free space where they are better for music is a hinderance on the PJ screen when space is limited. So you move the speakers out of the way into a less than optimal position and you ask the quesiton what is the point in having them in the first place if you can use a more dedicated product and no have the compromise.
That is really what I was getting at more than anything else
You can obviously use whatever speakers you want - generally a hifi speaker is designed for a bit of free space in my experience. Put them flat against the wall and you might as well use something else
Those more cinema dedicated type speakers doesnt matter who made by are designed to be "flat" on the wall - so mounting behind a PJ is screen is made easy. and simple and much cheaper!!!
Only when you start looking into having a PJ screen you realise having hifi speakers out in free space where they are better for music is a hinderance on the PJ screen when space is limited. So you move the speakers out of the way into a less than optimal position and you ask the quesiton what is the point in having them in the first place if you can use a more dedicated product and no have the compromise.
That is really what I was getting at more than anything else
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
A bit of care when setting up goes a long way to getting the most out of them. There are individuals out there that will tell you hi-fi speakers are evil and spread all sorts of nonsense - pros and cons to both.ellisdj said:
The problem with speakers near walls is that they tend to lose soundstage - this is true of ANY type of speaker, even if they have been designed to sit against a wall. Retailers trying to convince you otherwise tend to use volume to overcome the lack of spatial depth to the sound.
It all comes down to whether people want a nice neat install without the speakers encroaching on their living space, or whether they're happy to use their speakers as normal. A dedicated rooms helps, but then with that type of room, you're free to take any approach you like.
I've used conventional hi-fi speakers for AV systems very successfully, and may well be something I'll be going back to very shortly.
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
Some of you might remember that I have home cinemas in four rooms - parlour, kitchen, and two bedrooms. The kitchen system has the most uniform speakers, in that all of the speakers are not only from the same manufacturer (Eltax) but from the same range, Shine. I have an 8.1 system in the kitchen - normal 5.1 plus front prescence (height) speakers and a single surround back speakers. Four years ago was given (because Eltax headquarters in Denmark were impressed that I already had six pairs of Eltax speakers) a pair of Shine 8 loudspeakers, these ones in calvados colour http://www.son-video.com/Rayons/Hifi/Enceintes/Eltax-Shine-8.html which now cost 259 Euros the pair. These are now the surround speakers. 18 months later I got (bought this time!) the 89-Euro Eltax Shine Centre http://www.son-video.com/Rayons/HomeCinema/EnceintesCentrales/Eltax-Shine-C.html which I then used as the centre speaker, but now it's been moved to the single rear back. Two years ago I bought the front pair, presence pair and front centre speaker in the handy form of this 299 Euro 5.0 pack http://www.son-video.com/Rayons/HomeCinema/EnceintesAV/Eltax-Shine.html.
So without gifts, the 8.0 arrangement would cost 547 Euros, less than a single £995 M&KIW150 speaker! Oh, you do have to pay about an 33% increase for money conversion into euros and postage from France, which takes about five working days, but even so, the cost would be about 800 Euros. A higher-up page on Son Video's website is http://www.son-video.com/Conseil/HomeCinema.html. I don't claim for a single moment that the Eltax Shine speakers can be anything like as good as the M&K speakers, but for me and my budget, they certainly sound good enough - all visitors welcome for a demonstration! This 8.0 system is underpinned by a SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer, for example here http://www.themovierooms.co.uk/svs-pc12-plus-subwoofer.html?gclid=CKfnhoyUuscCFSMcwwodc94Nvg.
So without gifts, the 8.0 arrangement would cost 547 Euros, less than a single £995 M&KIW150 speaker! Oh, you do have to pay about an 33% increase for money conversion into euros and postage from France, which takes about five working days, but even so, the cost would be about 800 Euros. A higher-up page on Son Video's website is http://www.son-video.com/Conseil/HomeCinema.html. I don't claim for a single moment that the Eltax Shine speakers can be anything like as good as the M&K speakers, but for me and my budget, they certainly sound good enough - all visitors welcome for a demonstration! This 8.0 system is underpinned by a SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer, for example here http://www.themovierooms.co.uk/svs-pc12-plus-subwoofer.html?gclid=CKfnhoyUuscCFSMcwwodc94Nvg.
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
It's just that I appreciate that you are changing your thoughts about your home cinema arrangement.
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
David@FrankHarvey said:
In my kitchen system two posts above (driven by a Yamaha RX-A2010 receiver), when listening to movies, that's usually at about -21dB or -18dB. On special occasions up to -15dB or, very rarely, -12dB.
I am stubborn bugga agreed but believe in credit where credit is due. If something is good then I always say so - thats not always the case though, quite often not the case.
I never cared for a PJ before but now I want a good one I realise my current setup is a hinderance to the situation, not a help, so I am having to make big compromises to keep music how I like it.
Other speaker systems are designed to put the PJ / Picture first - which does make a big difference and is how it is in the cinema for years and years for good reason. I always thought this would be a compromise for SQ but after lots of demos its not , its actually a benefiot. Not sure on it for music but movies it works really well.
It makes sense to use a product designed for a duty for this duty, it will make the rest of the setup much easier and better overall, or if you cant afford it - look at what is used and why (the model) and mimic it with something you can afford.
Its not a special sauce its the same thing people in cinema have done forever - in the hifi world its done different becasue of the music aspect. For Pure movies - do it the movie way - that is how it is made
I never cared for a PJ before but now I want a good one I realise my current setup is a hinderance to the situation, not a help, so I am having to make big compromises to keep music how I like it.
Other speaker systems are designed to put the PJ / Picture first - which does make a big difference and is how it is in the cinema for years and years for good reason. I always thought this would be a compromise for SQ but after lots of demos its not , its actually a benefiot. Not sure on it for music but movies it works really well.
It makes sense to use a product designed for a duty for this duty, it will make the rest of the setup much easier and better overall, or if you cant afford it - look at what is used and why (the model) and mimic it with something you can afford.
Its not a special sauce its the same thing people in cinema have done forever - in the hifi world its done different becasue of the music aspect. For Pure movies - do it the movie way - that is how it is made
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