Dali

[Blacksabbath25]

The sugden will drive 4ohm load happily and the sugden today was about 20 Watts but I would get 40 Watts and we put the volume up around the 10 o’clock mark and we listened to led zeppelin , David Gilmore , black sabbath which the sugden played with ease

 

[hybridauth_Google_113430149168470336321]

Class A did sound very good but without taking my Yamaha and doing a A-B test between the luxman and the Yamaha I will not properly know but as soon as I got home I cranked up the Yamaha and knew I made the right decision today not to buy anything until I’ve hard all of the options available

I would expect the 550 AX11 Luxman to be substantially better than the A21 SE and more in line (if not better than) the IA-4.

It is a misconception that Class A is all warm and cuddly...it is dramatic, yet subtle; detailed, yet rich; explosive , yet refined; accurate, yet musical. IMO. It presents music as it should be, with no extra tizziness or bite....quite addictive.

I very much agree with the highlighted above, but with the added warning that amplifier speaker matching is extremely important with class A amplifiers.

My experience with a Sugden Masterclass class A pre / stereo power amp highlighted how important this is and also the style and type of music that is likely to be played on the system.

In general class A amps sound wonderful as long as you stay firmly within their power limits and use efficient easy to drive loudspeakers but they can run out of headroom very quickly with loud complex music and the sound collapses very quickly if not very careful with the volume control.

Carefully matched a pure Class A amps can sound fantastic but if you like complex dynamic music played at reasonably loud levels then a high bias class A/B is definitely a better choice in my experience .

I listen to all types of music, from heavy metal to Jazz and my Sugden and Opera speakers get my feet tapping. OK not at party level volumes but loud enough.

 

[hybridauth_Google_113430149168470336321]

The sugden will drive 4ohm load happily and the sugden today was about 20 Watts but I would get 40 Watts and we put the volume up around the 10 o’clock mark and we listened to led zeppelin , David Gilmore , black sabbath which the sugden played with ease

I have never heard a Yamaha Amplifier but from what you say about yours and saying it's very close to the sugden I bet it sounds nice.sounds like you have a good amplifier.

 

[CnoEvil]

You are correct CNO class A isn't warm and cuddly and yes supremely musical.

You expect the Luxman to sound significantly better than the Sugden. Well I shouldn't probably do this but I definitely going to listen to a luxman and compare it to my sugden. Just out of curiosity of course.

Which Sugden do you own? ...21 SE? ...and what speakers?

The IA-4 is a good step up from the 21 SE...and I would expect it to be much closer to the Luxman 20W

I'd love to hear what you think, if you hear it.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I am not sure about headroom with class A as I did ask the question but the chap thought I was taking about how high the volume will go but that’s something I do not know myself about the headroom peaks in music .

but there are more powerful class A amplifiers like the more expensive luxman which cost £7000 or the other models that sugden do

 

[Blacksabbath25]

The factor is with sugden or luxman class A amplifiers is the future to buy a really revealing pair of speakers and I am pretty sure you couldn’t have any finer sound quality out of 2 channel stereo hifi .

 

[hybridauth_Google_113430149168470336321]

You are correct CNO class A isn't warm and cuddly and yes supremely musical.

You expect the Luxman to sound significantly better than the Sugden. Well I shouldn't probably do this but I definitely going to listen to a luxman and compare it to my sugden. Just out of curiosity of course.

Which Sugden do you own? ...21 SE? ...and what speakers?

The IA-4 is a good step up from the 21 SE...and I would expect it to be much closer to the Luxman 20W

I'd love to hear what you think, if you hear it.

Sugden A21 se and opera callas speakers

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I meant to say a nice slightly warm valves sound that I thought about the sugden

 

[CnoEvil]

Sugden A21 se and opera callas speakers

...Now I remember.

Great system.

 

[hybridauth_Google_113430149168470336321]

Sugden A21 se and opera callas speakers

...Now I remember.

Thank you.

It is great and seems to be improving the more I use it. I have noticed if I leave it always powere on, it sounds a lot better.. And an added bonus it heats the living room.

Maybe not so handy in the summer lol

Great system.

 

[insider9]

Sugden A21 se and opera callas speakers

Very nice. Lovely speakers. And the famuos Seas drive units... *ok*

 

[emperor's new clothes]

IMHO there is an elephant in the room...

Quote:I first listened to the rubicon 6s with the luxman amplifier going though a blue node streamer what did I think ....

They used a £499 budget streamer/DAC with a £6k amp? let's hope the files used to demo were high res and not compressed cr@p which would explain the poor bass definition.

In computer programing parlance "garbage in equals garbage out"

Pity you don't live closer as you would be welcome to hear the Rubicons and Opticons back to back with quality recordings and source.

 

[emperor's new clothes]

Hi Blacksabbath,

We have been on a similar upgrade path over the last few years. As we know, the Opticons are excellent speakers at their price point and I'm still enjoying mine for both music and AV. I have only briefly heard Epicons with some high end electronics and agree - they are majestic. The HiFi+ plus review of the Epicon 8s was glowing with Naim NAP 300DR amps and they also tried the Marantz SA/PM 14s which performed suprisingly well considering the price miss match. However, I suspect that the Epicons would benefit from the higher end amplification.

I auditioned a number of alternatives with my amp and CD for accurate comparison, including PMC 25/23 and 24, Spendor D7 (better IMHO) & B&W CM10. I have previously owned KEF REF3 of 1995 vintage and MA Studio20se (WHiFi reference speakers at the time) for nearly 20 years. To my ears, the Rubicon 6s beat them all. After 9 months, I cannot fault them and the addition of GAIA 3 isolation feet mitigated any hint of bass boom - they have significantly meatier bass than the Opticons, regardless of any specs. They are 2.5 x the price of the Opticons and you would expect to get higher grade drivers and crossover. The real wood veneered enclosure is of very high quality. I would certainly try the Rubicon 8s. Your Yamaha won't be outclassed and if you are using that sub, the 6s will do the job for a grand less.

I agree with you, if you like DALIs stick with them.They certainly pair well with made-in-Japan amplification.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

So you didn't get to hear PMC to see what all the fuss is about BS?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

They used the luxman class A-B £3500 amplifier with blue node 2 and using a iPad Pro using tidal as we tried the rubicon 6s and the opticon 6s to see what the differences where between the 2 speakers .

the rubicon 6s did sound good but there was a slight bass hump but also I felt that the luxman sounded a bit flat sounding with both models of speakers as it wasn’t till we tried the sugden class A amplifier both sets of speakers sounded very good .

but I honestly couldn’t tell much difference between the rubicon 6s and the opticon 6s but I would say the top end of the rubicon’s where slightly better sounding but felt it wasn’t worth changing up to the rubicon’s for a small difference but if I did upgrade I would be going for the epicon 6s as it would be a worthwhile upgrade but they are £7000 .

and there was bass traps in the room and other stuff like that which I feel can make the sound dull or flat sounding

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I ran out of time Dougk

i did ask to hear the PMC 26s but he never had any but they would be the PMCs I would like to listen to but I will be going back to listen to some more stuff so will ask if I can hear what he has got in the PMC line .

but I also wanted to listen to spender D9s as well as they are meant to be very good speakers

 

[CnoEvil]

IMHO there is an elephant in the room...

Quote:I first listened to the rubicon 6s with the luxman amplifier going though a blue node streamer what did I think ....

They used a £499 budget streamer/DAC with a £6k amp? let's hope the files used to demo were high res and not compressed cr@p which would explain the poor bass definition.

In computer programing parlance "garbage in equals garbage out"

Pity you don't live closer as you would be welcome to hear the Rubicons and Opticons back to back with quality recordings and source.

I think you make a good point.

IMO. You can't make a fully informed judgement unless the Source quality matches the rest of the system...in this case, probably around 2k minimum. I didn't comment, as I know nothing about what was used.

 

[paulkebab]

of that 6K goes into the phono stage which you will probably never use? I think something modular will be more cost-effective and yes, they could have used a better front end but that's another issue. Valves, as Cno says and how I found, are certainly not warm and cuddly, it's all in the detail that to hear on your Yamaha would have you cranking the volume up which was one of my problems before upgrading. Details are all there, all the time, in proportion so I'd go listen to some more of what you've discovered.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I like the look of the bigger brother class A luxman 590 but it’s £7000 but definitely better detail with class A amplifier which I like

 

[CnoEvil]

I like the look of the bigger brother class A luxman 590 but it’s £7000 but definitely better detail with class A amplifier which I like

Can you use a better Source for any next demo....even if it's a CDP, from the likes of Luxman, Sugden, or MF Nu Vista. I think you will be surprised at the difference it makes - and might even show up the difference between Dali ranges.

The only time I've heard the New Kef Reference sound a bit shouty, was when a cheaper Arcam was used as a Source, in a system of much more expensive components. It was an evening with Arcam and Kef, so they were showing off their new Streamer/CDP. I heard the same system with an Akurate DS, where it sounded sublime.

IME. In a demo, a poorer Source can put you off a system; and conversely, an outstanding source can make a system sound more flattering than it would otherwise do, with a more moderately/sensibly priced one. That is why everything should be kept in balance imo.

 

[nopiano]

Hi BS, I’ve only read this today, and I know very little about Dali, other than my musician, author and critic cousin uses them.

Nobody seems to have answered your op about the specs. All I’d say is that the frequency ranges tell you almost nothing, except the bigger models go a a few Hz deeper. The sensitivity would make a big difference if you were switching between you current model and the one that’s over 90db. That would be as loud with a valve or class A amp as your current ones with your Yamaha.

I recall you recently saying you can’t ever imagine wanting a different amp. This seems to have shown both that your Yamaha is very good, and that a different amp may give a different presentation. (I’d certainly forget the RS demo, as it was probably not ideal).

My own view is don’t be wedded to Dali, good as they doubtless are. I was wedded to Sonus faber, and would gladly have them again one day. But listening with an open mind, for my budget and room, the ATC was better, by quite a margin.

I suspect you’re fine with where you are. But listening around does no harm as long as you decide on reflection not impulse.

Lastly, I don’t consider Tidal (or any streaming service) to be demo worthy, unless that’s your preferred source. You should listen as you do at home!

 

[nopiano]

While writing my post, Cno has said far better than I did, what I was thinking about the source. I agree with him.

 

[CnoEvil]

While writing my post, Cno has said far better than I did, what I was thinking about the source. I agree with him.

Thx for the kind sentiment.

I also see they do some nice cables (he says, putting on his asbestos jacket)...so the OP could have a play with the likes of Cardas and Telurium Q.

 

[Daz B]

I am surprised the dealer didn't connect a similar priced CDP to amp. Hearing a recording on the format you use would of given you a more worth while experience.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I do agree with you both about the source as I mainly listen to cd/ sacd which I like the most but what I did take away from yesterday demo was I did like class A and probably would of sounded even better using a good CD player with a good Dac onboard .

And maybe again the rubicon’s might of sounded different with a different source being used I didn’t explore that yesterday but I do feel my Yamaha will take some beating in quality of sound and I am sure if some heard my Yamaha they might find what it’s not good at but my thinking is if I really want to beat the Yamaha it got to be something like the luxman 590 and I would also feel that I would be getting my money’s worth if I changed amplifiers .

the sugden was very good and it’s excellent value for money for a class A amplifier but when you look under the hood of a sugden there’s not much there unlike the the luxman 590 which from a technology side of things is more impressive but you are paying £7000 .

and you could also say the same about the Yamaha A-S2100 quality build , quality sound for £1650 which is a bargain in its own right because your getting a lot for it .

so basically it’s early days I can’t see my getting shot of my Yamaha at the moment as I will take my time if I am going to spend a large sum of money