Dali

[radiorog]

Well big disappointment I just came back from a demo from richer sounds they only had the rubicon 5s as a demo speaker hooked up to a Cambridge amplifier and Cambridge streamer

I listened to the rubicon 5s I like the treble end of the speaker and the midrange but the bass I found to be to booming which shocked me I do not no if it was the Cambridge amplifier not controlling the bass properly or what but put me off buying the Dali rubicon 8s or the rubicon 6s

but the treble end of the speaker was better then my opticons you could hear a lot more detail from guitar and vocals but when I asked him to put on some heavy metal the bass was over kill which I do not understand because I’ve got the big opticon 8s which you would of thought they would be the same but they are not .

the rubicon 5s are a lot richer sounding I felt but very impressed with the treble and midrange part of the speaker so it looks like I will have to stick with my opticon 8s because I feel if I buy the rubicon 8s I will have lots of trouble with bass problems in my room .

But then driving on the way home I kept thinking did they have the bass on the Cambridge amplifier which I forgot to ask at the time but still can’t believe how bass heavy the rubicon was

Try the Rubicon 2's

You've heard the Rubicon 2's gasolin? Those and the 5's are on my need to hear list.

 

[iceman16]

5 meters by 4 meters roughly maybe a little more

The Epicon 2 are bigger in size and sound compare to most or many standmounts speakers so I guess they will work very well in that size of room.

 

[gasolin]

4 ohm and 87 db should be more than enough, theres 190watt dynamic in 4 ohm

My living room is a bit smaller but not by much, my nad dvd system with 20/30watt in 6 ohm can easily play loud with my q acoustcis 2010i

 

[insider9]

I have no experience with small Epicons only the big ones which were very impressive. I personally can't see myself going back to standmounts (bar large horns) ever again. At least not for main system. One thing is for sure going to standmount you will be trading in when it comes to bass. Not sure how BS25 feels about it but there will be a big difference in presentation between the two.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

i agree *smile*

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Right I’ve had my demo today it went well and I’ve learned something today

I first listened to the rubicon 6s with the luxman amplifier going though a blue node streamer what did I think ....

well I thought that the luxman was a little bit sharper with guitar strings but the soundstage Was not as big I found that I get with my Yamaha the luxman sounded laidback but detailed more mellow sounding .

so I asked to hear the luxman with Dali opticon 6s just to find out if my issues where amplifier related or speakers I found the opticon’s sounded better then the rubicon ‘s did so I knew then not to wast money on buying the rubicon’s becase the rubicon’s have got this slightest bass hump I do not like but the top end and midrange was very good .

so I kept with the Dali opticon 6s for the rest of the demo and it was looking like my issues where to do with amplifier not my speakers so we swapped the luxman for a pure Class A 25watt sugden amplifier wow that amplifier sounds very good the same guitar song I played with the other amplifier now sounds a lot more sharper in the guitar strings I mean really sharp and I said to the man that’s really sharp he said it’s meant to be like that .

anyway even though the sugden was only 25 Watts the amplifier went quite loud but didn’t like the look of the amplifier as my Yamaha is built a lot better then the sugden is but the sugden was just a little bit better in detail but not much .

So my conclusion is not to wast money on new speakers because what I have now is capable of the same sound quality as the rubicon’s and not to change my amplifier for the sugden because there is not much in it I felt .

now I could go back with my amplifier and do a A-B between amplifiers and try other speakers out with my amplifier but at the moment sitting here listening to my setup I am quite pleased that what I’ve got is already good as I feel if I buy something it’s for small differences in detail which I think it’s not worth the outlay .

but it was a experience this morning and got treated very well but also saved myself lots of money in the meantime .

 

[insider9]

Excellent result! Happy for you. If the setup you've got is sounding good in comparison it's definitely well thought out. Synergy is important and you seem to have found it.

I would expect to have a clear step up when spending that kind of money. The fact you don't think it is is only credit to you. Can't wait to hear it

 

[CnoEvil]

IME. It is a good thing to "benchmark" your own system, in terms of "sound per pound"....and never a waste of time.

To get a meaningful upgrade over your amp, you are looking 4 - 5k ie. The right one for your taste.

Looking at the selection that Analogue Seduction has, and the fact that you liked Class A, then maybe, at some point in the future, you should try the A49 (quite Class A sounding), the bigger Sugden IA-4 and my preference, the Luxman Class A. The left field option would be Icon Audio, which might re-calibrate your preference. *diablo*

What was the view of your better half? Did Gary have an opinion/suggestions?

FWIW. I know I'm listening to a good system (at whatever cost), when I find that I am no longer analyzing the sound (in terms of bass/midrange/treble/accuracy/naturalness etc), as it just sounds "Right".

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I didn’t see Gary I see someone else but took me some time to find the place but when I did it was a very big house and didn’t look like a hifi shop but anyway the chap I was dealing with he felt that the sugden was for me I think it was the sugden iA-4 he recommended that I try so we did it sounded lovely with the Dali opticon 6s but not enough to change my amplifier it was small changes .

Now the class A luxman amplifiers your looking at £7000 which is a lot of money where the sugden is in the £3000 bracket so good value for money if I didn’t own a amplifier .

i might go back and demo the class A luxman amplifier because I felt you see where your money is going but the sugden looked a bit plain Jane and he also was going to try spenders D9 but run out of time so it will be worth going back to listen to these 2 things and take my Yamaha amplifier with me .

 

[Blacksabbath25]

But you right CnoEvil about the amplifier being my problem it’s not about the speakers I just have to decide whether I spend £7000 on a luxman class A which I think is where my money would go .

 

[CnoEvil]

The 550 AX11 is listed as 5k...are you worried about its power?..it's spec is given as 20W @ 8 Ohms and 40W @ 4 Ohms, so will probably be the equal of the IA-4.

The A21 SE is the 3k (30W in 8 Ohms and 40W into 4 Ohms) option. The IA-4 is 33W (around 45W into 4 Ohms) and listed as 5k...and sounds substantially more power than the SE (despite the aparent closeness of the figures).

These Sugdens have had a fair old price hike in the last while. IIRC. They used to be 2400GBP and 4k GBP.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

No power is not the issue because it goes plenty loud even at 20watts but the one I was looking at was the LUXMAN L-590AX MK II INTEGRATED which I found he has a open box one just a couple of months old ex-demo £3500

edited the model he has is the model below the one I just quoted for £3500 but £5000 new

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

What about a good valve amp BS...I absolutely love the look of the prima luna dialogue hp and when I feel the need for a change,I'm definitely going to have a look and listen to one of these.ohhhh! the thought of tube rolling makes me go all funny.lol.

 

[newlash09]

Right I’ve had my demo today it went well and I’ve learned something today 

I first listened to the rubicon 6s with the luxman amplifier going though a blue node streamer what did I think ....

well I thought that the luxman was a little bit sharper with guitar strings but the soundstage Was not as big I found that I get with my Yamaha the luxman sounded laidback but detailed more mellow sounding  .

so I asked to hear the luxman with Dali opticon 6s just to find out if my issues where amplifier related or speakers I found the opticon’s sounded better then the rubicon ‘s did so I knew then not to wast money on buying the rubicon’s becase the rubicon’s have got this slightest bass hump I do not like but the top end and midrange was very good .

so I kept with the Dali opticon 6s for the rest of the demo and it was looking like my issues where to do with amplifier not my speakers so we swapped the luxman for a pure Class A 25watt sugden amplifier wow that amplifier sounds very good the same guitar song I played with the other amplifier now sounds a lot more sharper in the guitar strings I mean really sharp and I said to the man that’s really sharp he said it’s meant to be like that .

anyway even though the sugden was only 25 Watts the amplifier went quite loud but didn’t like the look of the amplifier as my Yamaha is built a lot better then the sugden is but the sugden was just a little bit better in detail but not much .

So my conclusion is not to wast money on new speakers because what I have now is capable of the same sound quality as the rubicon’s and not to change my amplifier for the sugden because there is not much in it I felt  .

now I could go back with my amplifier and do a A-B between amplifiers and try other speakers out with my amplifier but at the moment sitting here listening to my setup I am quite pleased that what I’ve got is already good as I feel if I buy something it’s for small differences in detail which I think it’s not worth the outlay .

but it was a experience this morning and got treated very well but also saved myself lots of money in the meantime .

Iam sure there was a lot of new found respect for your own system as you left the shop. Wont be easy to upgrade from your setup without breaking the bank. So can I suggest something left field. I absolutely don't have the budget to upgrade my present setup, so iam inclined to go left field, and buy amps second hand to pass over for not too much of a loss. This will give me the new box kick that we all so desire without breaking the bank. If the new box is better than parasound , then parasound goes on the bay otherwise it's the new boxes turn. And first up in my list are the Nord poweramps.

But of course if you are inclined to spend big money, you are on the right track

 

[CnoEvil]

No power is not the issue because it goes plenty loud even at 20watts but the one I was looking at was the LUXMAN L-590AX MK II INTEGRATED which I found he has a open box one just a couple of months old ex-demo £3500

edited the model he has is the model below the one I just quoted for £3500 but £5000 new

IMO. You will not get a better sound for 3500 GBP, than that Luxman Class A amp...and I know it's only my opinion...but it's an opinion shared by Soundstage, when they reviewed the previous incarnation and said: "The Luxman L-550AX is the best-sounding integrated amplifier for under $5000. Its classic design and high-quality materials set it well apart from its peers, and grace it with an inherent coolness and sophistication that smack of gear retailing for far, far more."

http://www.audiodrom.net/en/integrated-amplifiers/detail/31-integrated-amplifiers/540-luxman-l-550ax-mark-ii-vs-l-550ax

Is my encouragement working? *diablo*

 

[CnoEvil]

What about a good valve amp BS...I absolutely love the look of the prima luna dialogue hp and when I feel the need for a change,I'm definitely going to have a look and listen to one of these.ohhhh! the thought of tube rolling makes me go all funny.lol.

IME. Be warned, If you listen to a good Valve Amp, Naim will be a dissapearing dot on your rear view mirror. *diablo*

 

[newlash09]

No power is not the issue because it goes plenty loud even at 20watts but the one I was looking at was the LUXMAN L-590AX MK II INTEGRATED which I found he has a open box one just a couple of months old ex-demo £3500

edited the model he has is the model below the one I just quoted for £3500 but £5000 new 

IMO. You will not get a better sound for 3500 GBP, than that Luxman Class A amp...and I know it's only my opinion...but it's an opinion shared by Soundstage, when they reviewed the previous incarnation and said: "The Luxman L-550AX is the best-sounding integrated amplifier for under $5000. Its classic design and high-quality materials set it well apart from its peers, and grace it with an inherent coolness and sophistication that smack of gear retailing for far, far more."

http://www.audiodrom.net/en/integrated-amplifiers/detail/31-integrated-amplifiers/540-luxman-l-550ax-mark-ii-vs-l-550ax

Is my encouragement working? *diablo*

I guess we are pulling him in opposite directions. Blacksabbath's budget will decide which way he swings .
Spend big and stay put or spend lesser and keep experimenting for kicks

 

[Vladimir]

I'll take a Yamaha over a Luxman any day. Nothing special about Luxmans unless you go for some of their very old rare Japan only pieces. Why would you pay premium on a dead nonexisting brand.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Class A did sound very good but without taking my Yamaha and doing a A-B test between the luxman and the Yamaha I will not properly know but as soon as I got home I cranked up the Yamaha and knew I made the right decision today not to buy anything until I’ve hard all of the options available

 

[gasolin]

Just get a nad 3020 or 3020i and that's it *biggrin*

 

[hybridauth_Google_113430149168470336321]

Swalpped the luxman for a pure Class A 25watt sugden amplifier wow that amplifier sounds very good the same guitar song I played with the other amplifier now sounds a lot more sharper in the guitar strings I mean really sharp and I said to the man that’s really sharp he said it’s meant to be like that .

anyway even though the sugden was only 25 Watts the amplifier went quite loud but didn’t like the look of the amplifier as my Yamaha is built a lot better then the sugden is but the sugden was just a little bit better in detail but not much .

HI Blacksabbath25

Sounds like you had an interesting day.

Your remarks about the sugden ring very true. Marvellous Amplifier and plenty power enough. I am interested in your comments as I recently purchased the se version.

How did you find the base control?

 

[CnoEvil]

Class A did sound very good but without taking my Yamaha and doing a A-B test between the luxman and the Yamaha I will not properly know but as soon as I got home I cranked up the Yamaha and knew I made the right decision today not to buy anything until I’ve hard all of the options available

I would expect the 550 AX11 Luxman to be substantially better than the A21 SE and more in line (if not better than) the IA-4.

It is a misconception that Class A is all warm and cuddly...it is dramatic, yet subtle; detailed, yet rich; explosive , yet refined; accurate, yet musical. IMO. It presents music as it should be, with no extra tizziness or bite....quite addictive.

 

[Electro]

Class A did sound very good but without taking my Yamaha and doing a A-B test between the luxman and the Yamaha I will not properly know but as soon as I got home I cranked up the Yamaha and knew I made the right decision today not to buy anything until I’ve hard all of the options available

I would expect the 550 AX11 Luxman to be substantially better than the A21 SE and more in line (if not better than) the IA-4.

It is a misconception that Class A is all warm and cuddly...it is dramatic, yet subtle; detailed, yet rich; explosive , yet refined; accurate, yet musical. IMO. It presents music as it should be, with no extra tizziness or bite....quite addictive.

I very much agree with the highlighted above, but with the added warning that amplifier speaker matching is extremely important with class A amplifiers.

My experience with a Sugden Masterclass class A pre / stereo power amp highlighted how important this is and also the style and type of music that is likely to be played on the system.

In general class A amps sound wonderful as long as you stay firmly within their power limits and use efficient easy to drive loudspeakers but they can run out of headroom very quickly with loud complex music and the sound collapses very quickly if not very careful with the volume control.

Carefully matched a pure Class A amps can sound fantastic but if you like complex dynamic music played at reasonably loud levels then a high bias class A/B is definitely a better choice in my experience .

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Actually CnoEvil was correct with the model number as I had to look up what I demonstrated with as I knew it was a sugden but the model skipped my mind but it’s the £2900 sugden .

i found the sound with the sugden was really good it was in some ways close to how my Yamaha sounds which is slightly warm , neutral but the sugden has more detail with instruments I felt it a specially when I hard the guitar steel strings on David Gilmores lastest album live at Pomper the song Shine on you crazy diamond you could hear the full detail but much sharper and that was using the Dali opticon 6s which I have the opticon 8s which are much bigger then the opticon 6s

i felt the bass was just as good with the sugden if you compare the sugden with a class A & B amplifier but my only gripe with the sugden was no balanced XLR inputs unless you buy the model above I think it is and I also felt that the build quality on my Yamaha was a lot better then the sugden build quality and the other factor is I like the look of my Yamaha then the sugden look .

but for £2900 it’s a very good amplifier for the money sound wise

 

[hybridauth_Google_113430149168470336321]

Class A did sound very good but without taking my Yamaha and doing a A-B test between the luxman and the Yamaha I will not properly know but as soon as I got home I cranked up the Yamaha and knew I made the right decision today not to buy anything until I’ve hard all of the options available

I would expect the 550 AX11 Luxman to be substantially better than the A21 SE and more in line (if not better than) the IA-4.

It is a misconception that Class A is all warm and cuddly...it is dramatic, yet subtle; detailed, yet rich; explosive , yet refined; accurate, yet musical. IMO. It presents music as it should be, with no extra tizziness or bite....quite addictive.

You are correct CNO class A isn't warm and cuddly and yes supremely musical.

You expect the Luxman to sound significantly better than the Sugden. Well I shouldn't probably do this but I definitely going to listen to a luxman and compare it to my sugden. Just out of curiosity of course.