Dali

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Emotiva XPA-1 Gen2 has 60watt class a
Power output (0.1% THD):
1,000 watts RMS @ 4 ohms
600 watts RMS @ 8 ohms[/list]
How ever Minimum Recommended Load: is only 4 ohms

Price 1199$ 30-days trail https://emotiva.com/product/xpa-1-gen-2-2/ i think spec are true
Weight: 73 lbs (84 lbs boxed) that teels you something about how power full it is, did i mention you need 2? It's a monoblock power amp.[/list]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=HwJWWqLr2Yg
[/list]
 
Blacksabbath25 said:
I will have to get a demo booked for the Arcam to see what it sounds like with the Dali’s then at least the Arcam is cheaper then the standalone class A amplifiers .
Click to expand...

...and use an appropriate (and musical) Source eg. Luxman, Sugden Masterclass, Unison Research, Icon Audio.
 
Blacksabbath25 said:
Yes i will do this time around and I will take a load of CDs and most probably my Yamaha amplifier just to compare
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are on quite an adventure Blacksabbath. I always enjoy demoing loads of different options but sometimes it can be as frustrating as enjoyable in trying to find that balance between various bits of kit.

Just something to think about (and sorry if this confuses further rather than helps) but I was on the same merry go round as you in trying to find the best possible match between source/amp and speakers. With a lot of reading and speaking to people on here as well as other forums, I decided to take all the pain out of amp/speaker matching and buy active speakers and make the only variable the source (which I was already pretty settled on). It took me a while to get used to them but it's the best thing I ever did and now all I concentrate on is the music and the leap in sound quality was immense. I may be just about to order a second set of AE1's dependant upon a number of variables with moving other stuff on - they are THAT good.

And it's all Pedro 2's fault
wink_smile.png
.

CNo mentioned earlier that you may want to try a Linn DS and these are reasonably priced second hand and of very high quality. Add in a pair of active speakers and you'll probably be within a sniff of what you'd spend on some of the other amps that you have mentioned. That's without taking into account moving on your own stuff which may make it cost neutral or low cost. It may just be worth a listen to rule it in or out as an option.

Sorry if that confuses you more so feel free to ignore if it's not for you. It just enabled me to get back to 'simple' hifi that was high quality and stop the eternal mulling over of 'what next'. However, you may actually enjoy the ride that 'what next' gives you so good luck with your demos.

regular_smile.png
 
Paulq said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Yes i will do this time around and I will take a load of CDs and most probably my Yamaha amplifier just to compare
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are on quite an adventure Blacksabbath. I always enjoy demoing loads of different options but sometimes it can be as frustrating as enjoyable in trying to find that balance between various bits of kit.

Just something to think about (and sorry if this confuses further rather than helps) but I was on the same merry go round as you in trying to find the best possible match between source/amp and speakers. With a lot of reading and speaking to people on here as well as other forums, I decided to take all the pain out of amp/speaker matching and buy active speakers and make the only variable the source (which I was already pretty settled on). It took me a while to get used to them but it's the best thing I ever did and now all I concentrate on is the music and the leap in sound quality was immense. I may be just about to order a second set of AE1's dependant upon a number of variables with moving other stuff on - they are THAT good.

And it's all Pedro 2's fault .

CNo mentioned earlier that you may want to try a Linn DS and these are reasonably priced second hand and of very high quality. Add in a pair of active speakers and you'll probably be within a sniff of what you'd spend on some of the other amps that you have mentioned. That's without taking into account moving on your own stuff which may make it cost neutral or low cost. It may just be worth a listen to rule it in or out as an option.

Sorry if that confuses you more so feel free to ignore if it's not for you. It just enabled me to get back to 'simple' hifi that was high quality and stop the eternal mulling over of 'what next'. However, you may actually enjoy the ride that 'what next' gives you so good luck with your demos.
Click to expand...

So what will you recommend BS to listen to (active speakers)?

We have established that BS doesn't want small epicon 2 (can remember who agreed about that decision) even when they might sound very good,because of not having enough bass (epicon 47hz , opticon 8 38hz), so even when AE1 Active is as low as 40hz the 2x50watt might not at all be enough since he's living room (or the room where the hifi system is) is very big.

So he needs big speakers,loud speakers, what i would think as an option is Adam A8X 8.5" woofer, 200/300 watt Rms/Music, goes down to 38hz and max SPL for a pair is above 120db, but do they sound as good as he's current system?

Price less than 1600£ (shipping price i don't know) https://www.thomann.de/gb/adam_a8x_stand_bundle.htm cheap if he likes them better than the opticon 8 and yamaha amp.
 
Paulq said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Yes i will do this time around and I will take a load of CDs and most probably my Yamaha amplifier just to compare 
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are on quite an adventure Blacksabbath. I always enjoy demoing loads of different options but sometimes it can be as frustrating as enjoyable in trying to find that balance between various bits of kit.

Just something to think about (and sorry if this confuses further rather than helps) but I was on the same merry go round as you in trying to find the best possible match between source/amp and speakers.  With a lot of reading and speaking to people on here as well as other forums, I decided to take all the pain out of amp/speaker matching and buy active speakers and make the only variable the source (which I was already pretty settled on).  It took me a while to get used to them but it's the best thing I ever did and now all I concentrate on is the music and the leap in sound quality was immense. I may be just about to order a second set of AE1's dependant upon a number of variables with moving other stuff on - they are THAT good.

And it's all Pedro 2's fault  .

CNo mentioned earlier that you may want to try a Linn DS and these are reasonably priced second hand and of very high quality.  Add in a pair of active speakers and you'll probably be within a sniff of what you'd spend on some of the other amps that you have mentioned.  That's without taking into account moving on your own stuff which may make it cost neutral or low cost.  It may just be worth a listen to rule it in or out as an option.

Sorry if that confuses you more so feel free to ignore if it's not for you. It just enabled me to get back to 'simple' hifi that was high quality and stop the eternal mulling over of 'what next'.  However, you may actually enjoy the ride that 'what next' gives you so good luck with your demos.
Click to expand...

On the list of the absolute sounds all time greats. Will end the box swapping for quite some time if you like their sound. And if you are willing to pass on your present kit, won't be too much of a stretch either considering the price bracket you are exploring in 🙂
 
Blacksabbath25 said:
I have been doing some more reading about class A amplifiers basically I have definitely got to spend big money on buying a class A amplifier if I want one unless I can buy a class A amplifier secondhand with more then 50 Watts and can easily handle my opticon 8s which are 88db which are quite power hungry .

my worries with the sugden 21se is yes it will double its power into 4 ohms load but worried that the sugden will start clipping when pushed with much more dynamic music or when I put the volume up to 10 o’clock volume level .

now when I had the demonstrate with the sugden 21se it did seem to handle Dali opticon 6s And rubicon 6s without any issue that I could see in the demonstration I had and my only reason of me thinking about the sugden 21se is it’s price point which seems to be very good value .

if I went for the luxman 590 which would be my first choice then at least the luxman would have the reserved power needed to drive my opticon 8s properly . My only negative is the price point £7000 it’s a lot of money to the point where I might keep what I’ve got because all of the class A amplifiers are very expensive that have the bigger Watts spec .

the other option I am thinking about and I am not to sure if this would work or not is to buy a quality Dac that would give me this extra detail that I am after in the top end but weather my thinking is correct or not I am unsure .
Click to expand...

This is the thing about class A amps, you do have to spent a good chunk of money if you are going to get an amplifier that will cater for a wide taste in music especially the type of music you listen to.

I had an extended audition at home of the Sugden preamp and stereo power amp at around 70wpc into 8 ohms and I loved it I really wanted to keep it but the problem for me was the transient response, when it hit a peak at its limit with heavy dynamic music the sound collapsed for a split second it just had no more to give and I am not talking about extremely loud spl's.

I tried several spealers including a pair of QLN HD2 signature Splitfield stand mounts and a pair of Audiovector f3/ lyd 3X floorstanders that I owned at the time.

If you must have a pure class A amplifier please try it at home for a least a week or so just to make sure it will do what you need from it or it could be an expensive mistake .

Edit.

I just wanted to add that the Sugden preamp was superb when used with other power amplifiers .
 
Thanks Electro

here’s the thing I started this thread because I was going to upgrade my speakers to the Dali rubicon 8s which I thought was the way to go but finding out when I had the demo there was not much difference between the Dali opticon 6s And the Dali Rubicon 6s but that was using a luxman £3500 class A/B amplifier then tried the sugden 21se £2900 and then discovered that it wasn’t the speakers I needed to upgrade it was the amplifier .

But the thing is I am happy with my Yamaha A-S2100 And wasn’t thinking of upgrading it to some thing else but now I know the only way I will get that extra detail is going class A which I no it’s very expensive for a class A amplifier that will run my Dali opticon 8s correctly without running out of power and start clipping .

but again thinking about it again the demo wasn’t done right because of 2 things I should of taken my amplifier with me on the demo and I should of asked to use a luxman CD player because that’s how I normally listen to my music CD but they used the blue node streaming device which was using Tidal .

so will book a demo with the Arcam A49 because it’s got 50watts of class A and then class B which would give me 400watts with my speakers and that should give me headroom for the peaks so the Arcam shouldn’t run out of puff but not that I get that problem with my Yamaha .

it may end up that I will keep what I’ve got because as I’ve said before I do like my Yamaha very much and would be very hard to let go or I look at the big brother the Yamaha A-S3000 at least I know what I am getting for my money but it’s a very hard choice I am now facing .
 
The correct application for a modestly powered Class A amplifier is when you have above average efficient speakers and you want those first 2 watts to really sound great. If you have sub 90dB speakers with multiple drivers at impedance dips under 4ohms, you should opt out for well executed class AB or D amp with power to spare. Buying 30-50Wpc Class A, will be OK with average efficiency speakers.

Class A amps go into clipping and kill drivers just like any other topology. You need to bare in mind if the power is sufficient for your speakers and loudness preferences.
 
Not quite Sabbath. They produce 88dB at 1m when 2.83V is applied. That's 2W because they're 4 Ohm speakers. If the speaker sensitivity was quoted in line with industry standards of 1W of power at 1m your speakers would be in fact 85dB sensitive. That's not very sensitive.
 
DALI OPTICON 8 SPECSProduct seriesOPTICONFrequency Range (+/-3 dB) [Hz]38 - 32,000Sensitivity (2,83 V/1 m) [dB]88.0Nominal Impedance [ohms]4Maximum SPL [dB]112Recommended Amplifier Power [W]40 - 300Crossover Frequency [Hz]390 / 2,300 / 14,000Crossover Principle3 + ½-wayHybrid tweeter module, Super high freq. driver, Quantity1 x 17 x 45 mmHybrid tweeter module, Super high freq. driver, Diaphragm typeRibbon Hybrid tweeter module, High frequency driver, Quantity1 x 28 mmHybrid tweeter module, High frequency driver Diaphragm typeSoft Textile Dome Midrange driver, Quantity1 x 6 1/2"Midrange driver, Diaphragm typeWood Fibre Cone Low frequency driver, Quantity2 x 8"Low frequency driver, Diaphragm typeWood Fibre Cone Enclosure typeBass Reflex Bass Reflex Tuning Frequency [Hz]29.5Connection InputBi-Wiring
 
The way they quote specs 2.83V at 1m with 8 Ohm load produced 1W of power. With 4 Ohm load produces 2W.

If your speakers were 8 Ohm sensitivity would be 88dB since they are 4 it really is 85dB (if you think about 1W). That means you will need more power than you though.

What's your distance to speakers at listening position?
 
Rated at close to 90db only goes down to 4 ohm so you don't need a amp that can handle lower than 4ohm and they have a smiley frequency response.

Mabye you don't like the epicon's since they might be more flat sounding

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dali-rubicon-8-loudspeaker-measurements
 
gasolin said:
Rated at close to 90db only goes down to 4 ohm so you don't need a amp that can handle lower than 4ohm and they have a smiley frequency response.

Mabye you don't like the epicon's since they might be more flat sounding 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dali-rubicon-8-loudspeaker-measurements

 
Click to expand...
If you've followed the thread it was said that Sabbath ideally wanted Epicons but floorstanders and not standmounts.

The sensitivity figures above are also for real world comparisons should be 87dB and not 90dB.
 
insider9 said:
gasolin said:
Rated at close to 90db only goes down to 4 ohm so you don't need a amp that can handle lower than 4ohm and they have a smiley frequency response.

Mabye you don't like the epicon's since they might be more flat sounding

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dali-rubicon-8-loudspeaker-measurements
Click to expand...
If you've followed the thread it was said that Sabbath ideally wanted Epicons but floorstanders and not standmounts.

The sensitivity figures above are also for real world comparisons should be 87dB and not 90dB.
Click to expand...

I know that, as i wrote in #184 BS doesn't want epicon 2, there are to small, not enough bass/power
 
High efficiency speakers driven with handfull of watts very loud clicky. (95db/1W/1m)

Low efficiency speakers guzzling hundreds of watts to go loud clicky. (86dB/1W/1m)
 
Hi BS,

As you are going for another demo, why not give the Rubicons another try? Perhaps with a good quality recording with high dynamic range, such as BIA on SACD, the remastered Communique on CD or The Wall remastered (the original CDs were compressed and flat sounding in comparison). Might not be your cup of tea, but Norah Jones on SACD is probably the best non-classical recording that I have ever heard.

To my ears, there is a significant difference and I listen to both most days, although the Opticons mostly for AV. I suspect that they would be a great match for your Yamaha as they are with the Marantz PM14se. If you still come to the same conclusion as before, then so be it. In my room, the GAIA isolation feet are easily the best "tweak" of the many tried in the past. Deep, fast bass with zero boom or overhang and opens up the mids too. Illsley's bass playing and Pick Wither's drumming on Communique are astoundingly lifelike, not to mention the Knophler brothers' guitars.

What the extra money buys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RQSUPy_rSg

Enjoy your audition
 
Interesting video so going by that video to probably drive my speakers I would need at least 800watts if this is the case then I could buy a power amplifier that will give me this so the music is more dynamic as that’s what the video is saying .

going back to the Dali rubicon 8s I would take it this would control the bass better with a better amplifier that has more grunt
 
insider9 said:
The way they quote specs 2.83V at 1m with 8 Ohm load produced 1W of power. With 4 Ohm load produces 2W.

If your speakers were 8 Ohm sensitivity would be 88dB since they are 4 it really is 85dB (if you think about 1W). That means you will need more power than you though.

What's your distance to speakers at listening position?
Click to expand...
4 meters from my sofa so is that 4watts then lol
 
Blacksabbath25 said:
insider9 said:
The way they quote specs 2.83V at 1m with 8 Ohm load produced 1W of power. With 4 Ohm load produces 2W.

If your speakers were 8 Ohm sensitivity would be 88dB since they are 4 it really is 85dB (if you think about 1W). That means you will need more power than you though.

What's your distance to speakers at listening position?
Click to expand...
4 meters from my sofa so is that 4watts then lol 
Click to expand...
No, but at 4 meters loss of volume will be about 12dB.

Sensitivity is measured at 1 meter. Worth bearing in mind when deciding on amplification.

With 40Wpc (into 4 Ohm) at your listening distance and with your speakers sensitivity you will get max 89dB.
 
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